JW Concert Arrangements

[Figo 2]

In the wake of the recent thread about the HDAD reissue of CE3K, I had the radio on this morning and heard Williams' Boston Pops recording of the concert suite, for the first time in quite a while. Listening, I couldn't help but think the arrangement is too short by half, with lots of crazy segues, and with some important thematic material completely overlooked.

I know I've stated my general disappointment with Adventures on Earth (concert arrangement vs. original soundtrack) here in the past. In Williams' case, I think it's entirely possible that the artist isn't always the best judge of his own work -- which gives me nightsweats when I think about any further tinkering with the Star Wars trilogy -- and perhaps better concert arrangements could have been managed by someone else, perhaps submitting them for Williams' approval. Charles Gerhardt set the benchmark in this regard, with his Classic Film Scores series of the 1970s, with his always sensitive and dramatic reworkings (and frequently reconstructions) of Golden Age composers.

What do the rest of you think? Wouldn't you prefer 15- or 20-minute suites (or perhaps tone poems) drawn from these masterful scores, as opposed to the 10-minute watered-down medleys we've been given in the Pops re-imaginings (and subsequent live concerts)? Is the composer afraid his audience won't be able to sit still any longer, without metronomically-timed intervals of applause to revive them? Will they be too bored?

Perhaps in an age of seizure-threatening edits every time one turns on the television set, these are not unrealistic expectations. But at a regular concert (by which I mean, classical music concert), 10 minutes is a very short time to simply sit and listen, generally long enough for a mere curtain-raiser. You would think people accustomed to orchestral music in either guise (film or classical) would have the patience for a genuinely Straussian CE3K tone poem.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

As good as Williams concert cues often can be, they are indeed watered down, "concertized" versions of the music he wrote for a film.

Williams does not seem to believe his so called "underscore" can cut it in concert performances, which I why I think he focuses mainly on writing expansions on his themes.

[Figo 2]

If that's true, Steef, then it's a shame. He's missing out on a real opportunity to help bring film music into the mainstream classical repertoire. I don't necessarily feel that every bit of underscoring need be retained, as originally heard in the film, but the themes themselves are already so-well developed, and there is certainly an organic quality to the scores in general, that with a little judicious pruning, something resembling a serious tone-poem could be assembled. Again, I cite the classic Gerhardt recordings. If you settle for pops arrangements, then your music will likely appear on pops concerts. Which is fine, but then when charges of classical snobbism are levelled, remember it was the composer himself who opted to go the "popular" (whatever that means) route.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I rather think Williams missed a real opportunity here.

As much as I love the Superman March, Raiders March, Theme From Schindlers List, The Devils Dance or The Star wars Theme, would it not be great If Williams would have chosen a different angle to presenting his film music in the concert hall.

How about Desert Chase, The Destruction Of Krypton, Abandoned and Persued, Journey to The Island, and countless other brilliant cues that he could have performed in concerts.

Jerry Goldsmith has done 15 or 20 minute suites of his scores in concerts, Howard Shore is touring the globe with his LOTR concert that consists almost completely of underscore.

And in the mean time Williams is giving Raiders March another performance during an encore.

Pity.

[Lurker 5]

The many concert suites out there do get a bit repetitive after awhile and as mentioned, some of them just are not very good. I agree that "Adventures on Earth" is a prime example of this. Last year my friend was severely dissapointed by the fact that "The Grand Suite from Star Wars" was indeed just all of the same old boring concert arrangements that Williams performs routinely. Where is the suite from The Fury? Why just play music from the first Indiana Jones film when there are two more films to choose from? Granted, "The Raiders March" makes for a pretty good encore, but during the concert more obscure (but equally good) works could be performed.

Neil

[Hitch 57]

And in the mean time Williams is giving Raiders March another performance during an encore.

Pity.

Any of the Goldsmith concert we have gone to together his encores are nearly all the stuff he had performed earlier: ie: Star Trek, Supergirl, etc. Certainly his output is larger than Johnny's and as melodic. I'd love to hear Jerry's POWDER theme in concert or else some of his RUSSIA HOUSE score.

As for Johnny's encores, he likes doing the RAIDERS March because people know it and like it. So people are attended his concerts for the very first thing and love to hear that piece of music performed live on stage with a full-blooded orchestra. I certainly enjoyed it with the LSO in 1998. My very first concert in London. Here's to London 2005 or else LA 2005 or else Boston 2005.

Hitch, hoping to hear Johnny's jingles again next year.

[John Crichton 4]

I quite like The Forest Battle concert piece from the ROJ SE. It's longer than the film cue, has an incredible ending, and even incorporated the little comic bit that was in the original Sail Barge Assault cue.

The first time I ever heard anything from Hook outside the film was at the Williams concert I went to in 1999. Flight to Neverland, The Never Feast, and Remembering Childhood were played. It was the influence that made me go out and buy the CD (and eventually d/l most of the boot off some website that doesn't exist anymore). But I can't say how they compared to the cues, I haven't heard the concert pieces since.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Any of the Goldsmith concert we have gone to together his encores are nearly all the stuff he had performed earlier: ie: Star Trek, Supergirl, etc.

Wrong, I have attended only one Jerry Goldsmith concert.

You must be confusing me with Marian.

Certainly his output is larger than Johnny's and as melodic.  I'd love to hear Jerry's POWDER theme in concert or else some of his RUSSIA HOUSE score.

Atleast Goldsmith performed suites from TMP, POTA, Rudy, The Sum of All Fears and The Last Castle.

Hitch, hoping to hear Johnny's jingles again next year.

Can't wait to see you in you Bernard Herrman Fan Network T-shirt.

[Hitch 57]

Any of the Goldsmith concert we have gone to together his encores are nearly all the stuff he had performed earlier: ie: Star Trek, Supergirl, etc.

Wrong, I have attended only one Jerry Goldsmith concert.

You must be confusing me with Marian.

Don't drag poor Marian into this. He's not up to the challenge.

Certainly his output is larger than Johnny's and as melodic.  I'd love to hear Jerry's POWDER theme in concert or else some of his RUSSIA HOUSE score.

Atleast Goldsmith performed suites from TMP, POTA, Rudy, The Sum of All Fears and The Last Castle.

All repeats....every year.......yawning.....he never does his 60 hour VOYAGER suite I keep pestering him to do.

Hitch, hoping to hear Johnny's jingles again next year.

Can't wait to see you in you Bernard Herrman Fan Network T-shirt.

Actually, I'll be wearing my PV one.

[BigKenLittle 6]

Concert arrangements are a delicate balancing act. Let's face it, that aren't that many of us film music freaks out there, and Pops concerts are geared towards a larger audience. If you go to see a Mahler concert, you expect long movements. And Pops concerts, feature adaptations of popular music, like New York NY and Stars & Stripes forever.

Now, I personally agree, that there is room for more of John Williams' under-score in his concert arrangements, but I just don't think that the general public at large would have the same taste for it as we do. I, would love to see, a 30 or 40 minute symphonic suite of the Superman score. In my opinion, this score is rich with thematic material that could be more fully developed. I think, Star Wars is an obvious choice, for a full-blown tone poem treatment.

And, by the way, it's great to see you posting again Figo.... Please continue to do so more often.

[Marian Schedenig 8,179]

Wrong, I have attended only one Jerry Goldsmith concert.

You must be confusing me with Marian. 8O

I also have attended only one Goldsmith concert with Sir Alfred...

Regarding CE3K, I've always preferred the lengthy suite recorded by Gerhardt to the standard "excerpts". And regarding Goldsmith, I clearly prefer his suites to his standalone theme/medley versions. This year's concerts was somewhat disappointing in that regard.

Marian - who would pay a lot to attend a good concert of the album arrangement of The Fury.

Basic Instinct (Jerry Goldsmith)

[Hitch 57]

[

I also have attended only one Goldsmith concert with Sir Alfred...

Any chance of seeing that group photo you took that night

Hitch TITUS (Goldenthal's best score to date)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Regarding CE3K, I've always preferred the lengthy suite recorded by Gerhardt to the standard "excerpts".

Yeah it's brilliant, a pity Williams never seem to have performed it himself.

And regarding Goldsmith, I clearly prefer his suites to his standalone theme/medley versions. This year's concerts was somewhat disappointing in that regard.

More so...then Goldsmith himself not being there?

[Hlao-roo 389]

More so...then Goldsmith himself not being there?

Who?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Old jewish guy...white hair...glasses?

No?

[Morlock 11]

Grey hair? You seen him lately?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Read again...and no, I have not seen him in a long time...a long time.

[Morlock 11]

What about the London concert?

ohhhh.....right.

Morlock-

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Nice Jonathan...very nice.

[Morlock 11]

Sorry, sorry. Low Blow. I apologize to all the victims of that unfortunate turn of events.

[Marian Schedenig 8,179]

Any chance of seeing that group photo you took that night

I sure hope so....I admit I still haven't developed those photos! I hope I can find the film...

Hitch TITUS (Goldenthal's best score to date)

Well, after months/years of searching, I finally got it a few weeks ago. It's very good, but I think my favourite is still Sphere.

Marian -

The 13th Warrior (Jerry Goldsmith)

[King Mark 3,626]

Then there's PoA,which lacks concert arrangements.Mischief Managed is too long to play in concert,and the scores cues are too short individually,except A Window to the Past.I dont see yet how he could play PoA selections at a Pops concert.I hope he wrote extended concert arrangements (especially of Buckbeaks Theme and Double Trouble)that he did not record(like The Flag Parade and Han Solo and The Princess),so it can be recorded by others.

K.M.

[SeekUYoda 0]

Deleted since this post was somehow duplicated below.

[SeekUYoda 0]

As much as I love the Superman March, Raiders March, Theme From Schindlers List, The Devils Dance or The Star wars Theme, would it not be great If Williams would have chosen a different angle to presenting his film music in the concert hall.

How about Desert Chase, The Destruction Of Krypton, Abandoned and Persued, Journey to The Island, and countless other brilliant cues that he could have performed in concerts.

And in the mean time Williams is giving Raiders March another performance during an encore.

Pity.

The JFK suite was on a Chicago program last year - it was brilliant to hear! And I think I heard The Patriot and Sabrina on a Tanglewood program a couple years ago, and something really great from ET at an open rehearsal the day before. It wasn't the usual track from the "By Request" Pops tape - it was something I'd never heard. It was performed the next day on a concert with Yo-Yo Ma.

When he does branch out, it's wonderful, but most of the people in the audience weren't there for the branching out - they wanted HP, SW, and Indy. And unless you please the audience, the audience won't come back!

[Figo 2]

It's nice to see this thread actually got some notice over the last few days.

Of course you have to please the audience, SeekUYoda. Williams has been doing that for decades. But I seriously doubt anyone who pays to hear a film music concert is going to get up and walk out because the composer decided to give Superman the Ein Heldenleben treatment. If anything, I would think he or she would be wowed by the recurrance of familiar themes and motives (SU-per-man!), freshened-up by way of virtuosic development. I think Williams stands to build -- as opposed to alienate -- an audience, and perhaps an audience for "serious music," as well. Joe Q. Public might even make the leap from Williams to Wagner and Strauss, as I did, all the way back in the late '70s. If not for Star Wars, I'd be holding up a cigarette lighter and moshing to death metal. Break out the time-travelling DeLorean!

At the very least, he might have considered publishing alternate suites or symphonic poems for performance in standard classical music concerts. Then the conductor could pick and choose. If they were really well-done, I think they'd stand a much better chance of receiving repeat performances than would yet another concerto. (Don't get me wrong -- I'm probably more excited by Williams' concert music these days than I am a lot of the film stuff.)

And that's not to say I'm opposed to the traditional Raiders or Superman (or, for that matter, NBC News) encores!

Hey there, Big Ken! How ya doing? I'd love to post more often, thanks. I'm just so danged busy! And, truth to tell, I really shouldn't be posting at all right now. I've got a big move coming up, and I should be channeling all my energy into getting plastered as I drop loose dishes in a box.

[Lurker 5]

And that's not to say I'm opposed to the traditional Raiders or Superman (or, for that matter, NBC News) encores!

I would love to hear Superman as an encore.

Neil

[Figo 2]

I hear you, Neil. I too was disappointed on the occasion I heard Williams live. What does he have against Superman, anyway? You'd think it would be the ultimate encore.

Actually, now that I think about it, it would make a terrific opener. (Duh.)

[SeekUYoda 0]

I don't know, Figo. I agree - no one who pays to hear a film music concert will be upset by the Eulenspiegel treatment of a score. Some of us would really like it! But I think the John Q. Public, who is 80 years old with season tickets to the CSO and has never heard of John Williams (not kidding - he and his friends attended the horn concerto premiere) will not like that treatment. He will want a less subtle version that he can recognize without much difficulty.

And Williams got you into classical music? Awesome!

If not for Star Wars, I'd be holding up a cigarette lighter and moshing to death metal.

If they were really well-done, I think they'd stand a much better chance of receiving repeat performances than would yet another concerto. (Don't get me wrong -- I'm probably more excited by Williams' concert music these days than I am a lot of the film stuff.)

I'm glad you put that in, or I would have thought you were bashing the horn concerto, which is not acceptable.

[Figo 2]

Au contraire, SUY -- I would think the 80 year-olds would be the very people to look down their noses at any film music in the concert hall (unless, of course, it's by Walton, Prokofiev, or Copland), which is why I think it would benefit the music, from a traditional "classical" standpoint, to present it with a little meat to it. Old men used to sitting stock-still through Bruckner and Mahler aren't going to be impressed by something they can take-in in a single hearing. Especially if -- gads! -- it comes from the cinema! If the old farts don't wear dentures already, they'll certainly need them after being exposed to some of the less-fortunate Pops arrangements. (Jaws, anyone?)

As for the Horn Concerto -- alas, I was unable to attend the premiere. I do hope someone makes a recording. I mentioned even before the piece was completed what an awesome idea it would be for Sony to put out a disc of all three brass concerti. (Yeah, like that'll happen.)

[Lurker 5]

I mentioned even before the piece was completed what an awesome idea it would be for Sony to put out a disc of all three brass concerti.  (Yeah, like that'll happen.)

Good ideas and Sony Classical don't seem to go well together.

Neil

[SeekUYoda 0]

Yes, hence their lame JW website... (http://www.johnwilliamscomposer.com/)

[Mari 279]

If they were really well-done, I think they'd stand a much better chance of receiving repeat performances than would yet another concerto. (Don't get me wrong -- I'm probably more excited by Williams' concert music these days than I am a lot of the film stuff.)

I'm glad you put that in, or I would have thought you were bashing the horn concerto, which is not acceptable.

SeekUYoda, You already know how much I agree with you!

Figo,

I think it would be great if Williams did something like Korngold's "Sursum Corda" in reverse. Anyone I know who has heard his score to Robin Hood and then goes back and listens to the earlier "Sursum Corda" instantly recognizes the thematic elements from it that Korngold incorporated into the Robin Hood score.

There are so many great themes in the Star Wars music JW could use and either expand upon them or create a set of theme and variations. The music would retain enough familiarity that people would instantly be able to recognize the source, but would be different enough to be fresh and exciting.

Kathy

p.s. Welcome back Figo!

[QMM 4]

And that's not to say I'm opposed to the traditional Raiders or Superman (or, for that matter, NBC News) encores!

I would love to hear Superman as an encore.

Neil

Should've been there at Chicago

[Lurker 5]

Should've been there at Chicago

One more reason to hate you.

Neil

[QMM 4]

I thought you already had enough?

[Figo 2]

Of course, there's a lot of cross-fertilization in Korngold. The Violin Concerto is the most obvious example, recycling themes from some of the film scores. But it's not the only instance of this occuring. You can hear The Sea Wolf in the slow movement of his 3rd String Quartet; Elizabeth & Essex and Kings Row are quoted in the Symphony; and the Cello Concerto was basically lifted wholesale from Devotion.

Personally, I would be ecstatic if Williams ever decided implement your idea, Mari, although if he were going to try it, he probably should have been doing so all along. Nearly three decades (and two embarrassing prequels) later, Star Wars, I'm afraid, has attained permanent kitsch status. The shadow of Jar-Jar Binx would insure a hail of rotten tomatoes at the premiere.

[Mari 279]

Personally, I would be ecstatic if Williams ever decided implement your idea, Mari, although if he were going to try it, he probably should have been doing so all along.  Nearly three decades (and two embarrassing prequels) later, Star Wars, I'm afraid, has attained permanent kitsch status.  The shadow of Jar-Jar Binx would insure a hail of rotten tomatoes at the premiere.

LOL

It doesn't have to be Star Wars, I was just using that as an example.

I've been thinking about it and if JW were to ever write something like I described, it would probably work better with music from one of his lesser known scores anyway.

Kathy, who has apparently given Neil a reason to hate her too

[Figo 2]

I see the modern equivalent of the Ring cycle, built entirely on motives from -- Heartbeeps.

[Lurker 5]

I see the modern equivalent of the Ring cycle, built entirely on motives from -- Heartbeeps.

Please don't knock Heartbeeps. I love that score.

Neil

[Figo 2]

What, you doubt my sincerity?

[Jeshopk 8]

Williams has played "One Barrel Chase" on the Williams on Williams CD and in concert, I think. Also, the Raiders opening chase was played, the Last Crusade opening chase, and some incidental Hook Music.

I agree that most Pops programs are a little frustrating if you know Williams scores. Though most of the attendees have no memory of the cues, I still think they would enjoy it. The programs we propose would change the Pops' audience to the fundless 20something and early 30something crowd. And the Pops exist on a lot of Sponsorship...so basically, they are trying not to rock the boat too much, so they can keep the bluehairs coming. If there was an all Jaws Concert, with no special guest singer, you wouldn't have lots of repeated patronage from the old Boston richies. My guess anyway. Sad but possibly true.

[SeekUYoda 0]

And the Pops exist on a lot of Sponsorship...so basically, they are trying not to rock the boat too much, so they can keep the bluehairs coming. If there was an all Jaws Concert, with no special guest singer, you wouldn't have lots of repeated patronage from the old Boston richies. My guess anyway. Sad but possibly true.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. And every orchestra exists on a lot of sponsorship.... it's the price you pay to be a 501©3. (Federal non-profit status organization)

[Figo 2]

If anyone cares, the Korngold score from which the composer took his Cello Concerto is called Deception, not Devotion. My bad.

[Mari 279]

If anyone cares, the Korngold score from which the composer took his Cello Concerto is called Deception, not Devotion.  My bad.

Kathy, continuing to explore emoticons

[Marian Schedenig 8,179]

If anyone cares, the Korngold score from which the composer took his Cello Concerto is called Deception, not Devotion.  My bad.

I nearly mentioned it, but I always keep mixing them up myself.

Marian - who could have heard the Cello Concerto live a couple of months ago, but it was a bad orchestra.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Its times like this I REALLY wish I had seen JW in concert!

[SeekUYoda 0]

Well, it's pretty cheap to fly from NY to Denver on Frontier, and you can camp in a tent instead of a hotel here - why not come to Aspen?

[Figo 2]

If anyone cares, the Korngold score from which the composer took his Cello Concerto is called Deception, not Devotion.  My bad.

Kathy, continuing to explore emoticons

Apparently, that's not all you're looking to explore.

[Mari 279]

If anyone cares, the Korngold score from which the composer took his Cello Concerto is called Deception, not Devotion.  My bad.

Kathy, continuing to explore emoticons

Apparently, that's not all you're looking to explore.

Bad Figo! LOL

Its times like this I REALLY wish I had seen JW in concert!

Tanglewood isn't too far from you is it? Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to go to the Tanglewood concerts and report on the horn concerto.

Kathy

[diskobolus 3]

Is there a list somewhere of all the concert arrangements that are available and what release they were on?