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Williams scores only 40 minutes for Hp Cos?


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I only know William Ross from some very positive reviews on filmtracks.com, but in fact, I think that it`s just good Williams won`t compose the entire score for HP2. I mean, you remember how unoriginal and unsurprising the first HP score was??

Good. Then Ross will perhaps make it more original.  

8O

:)

I never heard the score you talk about. The score I heard is brilliant and wonderful, MY ABSOLUTE FAVORITE JOHN WILLIAMS SCORE IN 20 YEARS.

I think that pretty much sums up how I feel about the HP score. And I know I will cherish every bit of JW's music from Chamber of Secrets, even if it is only 40minutes.

I admire John's loyalty to Steven Spielberg. He feels it is more important to do Catch Me If You Can, then I can live with that. That kind of friendship and loyalty is rare, and it is our privilege to see it carried out.

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I mean, you remember how unoriginal and unsurprising the first HP score was??

Good. Then Ross will perhaps make it more original.

I'm not agreeing with how you described the first score, but even if it was so unoriginal and unsurprising, that doesn't mean it wasn't spectacular. Ross needs to go with the flow, and not try to make it too original compared the first one. There should be uniue and original elements, but it should have the overall same "sound." Like Star Wars scores are all diferent, but they are all definitely part of the same group.

Ray Barnsbury

Well, remember, John Williams is setting the "tone" with his new themes and his 40 minutes of original music.

I wouldn't mind Mr. Ross varying the instrumentation a bit more...all the whimsical string/woodwind whirls/twirls became decidedly annoying after a while.

On a unrrelated note, I wouldn't mind them mixing the score somewhat lower this go around, with hordes of critics last time blaming Williams entirely (and unfairly) for the admittedly frequently distracting musical effects.

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Im here a little late but...

WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY (gasp) YYYYYYYYYYY

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! :?:

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I wouldn't mind Mr. Ross varying the instrumentation a bit more...all the whimsical string/woodwind whirls/twirls became decidedly annoying after a while.

The instrumentation is the best part of the score!

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Why don't you get some more old stuff like Herrmann and North? 8O

Morn - Who can think of no one who could be the successor of Williams

You needn't believe me, Morn, but where I live movie music is considered a "minor" stuff and is treated as such both at stores and catalogues. I have big problems getting Williams' and other composers' stuff apart from soundtracks to blockbuster movies. While you are about to get TITANIC soundtrack on just about every corner here, it was miracle I found AMISTAD at a store and so on.

It's difficult, as I've just grumbled, and the old era composers like Alex North whom you mention and others, though great music they did, have never been readily orderable in this part of the world. Ask other Czech guys here on these boards about the "ease" of getting rarer movie music here, Williams' stuff included, and you'll get clued in. :idea:

Happy upcoming weekend, Morn! :mrgreen:

(P.S. I have Silva Screen's "Ben Hur" compilation (2-CD) with music by Miklós Rózsa, which is, alas, only one of my fewer voyages to the golden movie music era. What surprised me pleasantly about Silva's compilations is that some feature Czech orchestras as the ensemble that performs the music on the recordings.)

Yoda L. :alien:

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No, it says a lot about how Williams is a total master of orchestration :)

No, it says a lot about what John Williams and his unrivalled team of orchestrators can (or can't) accomplish.

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Two things :

brings up the question to me, if Williams always writes AND orchestrates each note that is used in the film.

Since he doesn't use th ecomputer for that, it's a hell of a job.

Maybe he has used orchestrators before. As long as he has the final sya about it, and has to chance to change it, it's fine with me.

John Williams usually writes on a 8 parts score, adding chords, instrumental and orchestral indications, and every infos that could be helpful to his orchestrator. So it is consider that the final result is only Williams' notes, because nothing is really added by the orchestrator. However, he doesn't take the time to orchestrate everything by himself, it would be too long.

By the way : usually, a film composer is writting on a 4 parts score, and doesn't take the time to divide every instruments parts or to indicate every orchestration changes. Sometimes, composers only write on a piano score a nice melody with jazz chords on top of it, and the orchestrator doesn't the rest of the job.

Now if Don Davis were to compose the music, then i'd be suiting up right now.

WOW my friend, be cool with Don Davis. He did a hell of a job on JP3. IMO, even better than Williams did on JP2. Moreover, his new themes are great and the way he uses Williams' themes perfectly match the movie.

Hellgi

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So why is that composers such as Don Davis and Howard Shore manage to find the time to orchestrate their own works and manage to maintain such a high quality of composition...?

Mr. Shore, at least, is well able to produce at least two scores a year, as well.

Mr. Williams has a busier concert schedule, I suppose?

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The composers you mention don't set off beyond film music I believe. Incomparable with Williams.

1. Except for the Lord of the Rings Shore hasn't done anything equally notable.

2. Shore had been working on Lord of the Rings score twice-thrice as long as it usually takes these days (it "usually" takes 3-10 weeks to come up with score for a 2-hour movie; Prokofiev usually devoted 3 month-period for composing large orchestral pieces). Don't want me to compare LotR to Prokofiev's or Mahler's stuff. Music in LotR is not as big as it sounds from your stereo although it's sturdily impressive. Quality is not necessarily predicated in robustness. Have someone play you themes from LotR on violin and compare it to the same performance of themes for instance from Dvorak's "American" string quartet.

Hey, I like LotR score very much and bow low before Howard's achievement. But this disappoints me that so many people favors this over other noteworthy scores but aside from the largest gatherable ensemble and doubled chorus it's not all that gorgeous. At least I don't hear so.

It too often seems to me people judge the "quality" by no other merits than number of themes, their melodiousness and power coming from each sections of the orchestra during action passages. But music has more to it.

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So why is that composers such as Don Davis and Howard Shore manage to find the time to orchestrate their own works and manage to maintain such a high quality of composition...?

Mr. Shore, at least, is well able to produce at least two scores a year, as well.

Mr. Williams has a busier concert schedule, I suppose?

No, Williams has a much higher quality of composition. LOTR? Bah, it has basic orchestration. Davis is better but still not on Williams level. Williams is a true master of orchestration.

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Hellgi -- when you say 8 parts score, what does that mean?  Exactly how much of the music is there written down on the paper?

~Harry

All the music is written, but Williams doesn't use a "complete score" to write down every notes, because it would take too long. For example, it's easiest to write a chord in a close position and to point out what instrument is playing what, instead of writing the whole chord on 5 different parts for each instrument.

Secondly, on this 8 parts score, he doesn't have to bother with transposed instruments (trumpets, horn, clarinets, etc).

Usually, the composer uses the 8 parts to completely represents the whole scale of a grand orchestra, which means from the tuba - basoon - contrabassa range to the piccolo and flutes. It's easier.

Another good thing is that you don't have to bother about dividing chords between players, for example if you want to have two flute players playing at the same moment but not the same thing you just have to write the notes on the same part and pointing on the score that two flutes are supposed to play here.

All in one, he doesn't have to think about all the "boring" aspect of orchestration : re-writing on a full score, dividing a part between same instruments players, writing down all the notes of a chord instead of writing C7 at the string section, etc. This technical stuff is the job of the orchestrator.

Obviously, the better orchestrator the composer is, the better he makes it clear on his reduced score what the orchestrator has to write on the full, final score, and the more he can avoid understanding mistakes.

Obviously too, when the orchestrator and the composer know each other very well, the task is done faster and better.

Hellgi

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No, Williams has a much higher quality of composition. LOTR? Bah, it has basic orchestration. Davis is better but still not on Williams level. Williams is a true master of orchestration.

Huh huh. Davis, not a "true master of orchestration" ? Stop being blind please. Being a JW fan doesn't mean you can't recognise a good orchestrator. Don Davis is obviously one of the best orchestrators right now. His work on Matrix has a far better orchestration than a lot of Williams' works.

Hellgi

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No, Williams has a much higher quality of composition. LOTR? Bah, it has basic orchestration. Davis is better but still not on Williams level. Williams is a true master of orchestration.

Huh huh. Davis, not a "true master of orchestration" ? Stop being blind please. Being a JW fan doesn't mean you can't recognise a good orchestrator. Don Davis is obviously one of the best orchestrators right now. His work on Matrix has a far better orchestration than a lot of Williams' works.

Hellgi

Well, yes, David is a very good orchestrator and far above most of his peers, but I don't consider him a master of it. Williams has done better than The Matrix. Such as Harry Potter. And his olympic themes (which I assume he orchestrated himself) show he doesn't need an orchestrator to do really fine orchestrations.

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If I'm not mistaken and you'll have to forgive I know nothing about music other than listening to it, but hasn't it been mentioned that Williams sketches are so precise the orchetrators really don't function the way a normal orchetrator would?

Plus he does write more music for a film than most composers do.

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The composers you mention don't set off beyond film music I believe. Incomparable with Williams.

1. Except for the Lord of the Rings Shore hasn't done anything equally notable.

2. Shore had been working on Lord of the Rings score twice-thrice as long as it usually takes these days (it "usually" takes 3-10 weeks to come up with score for a 2-hour movie; Prokofiev usually devoted 3 month-period for composing large orchestral pieces). Don't want me to compare LotR to Prokofiev's or Mahler's stuff. Music in LotR is not as big as it sounds from your stereo although it's sturdily impressive. Quality is not necessarily predicated in robustness. Have someone play you themes from LotR on violin and compare it to the same performance of themes for instance from Dvorak's "American" string quartet.

Hey, I like LotR score very much and bow low before Howard's achievement. But this disappoints me that so many people favors this over other noteworthy scores but aside from the largest gatherable ensemble and doubled chorus it's not all that gorgeous. At least I don't hear so.

It too often seems to me people judge the "quality" by no other merits than number of themes, their melodiousness and power coming from each sections of the orchestra during action passages. But music has more to it.

Uh...note that I never mentioned anything specifically about The Lord of the Rings, which I do think is great, though...

The Yards, eXistenZ, Panic Room and Se7en are all highly "notable" scores, in my opinion...and believe it or not, I'm not judging them by "number of themes" or "melodiousness"...which shouldn't be too surprising...

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Unless you work in Hollywood, in music, which I do and have spoken to a lot of the guys that do work for Williams and studdied under them, do not presume to know what John Williams does or does not do. He does orchestrate himself, he knows exactly what he likes and he is far above the rest of them out there when it comes to orchestration. His "orchestrators" transcribe his music, they do NOT orchestrate at all!!!!!! This is also the reason why he is NOT doing the WHOLE of Harry Potter 2. If his orchestrators did more than just transcribe his work, he could finish the whole score in sketch form and then have them do the rest, which is the case with a lot of composers out there. Instead, he says 40 minutes is all I can do myself, and he gives the rest of the work to someone else to do.

I am not saying this as a fan on this board but as someone who knows what the score is.

And Don Davis? Yes he is a good orchestrator, but no where near the level of complexity and maturity of Williams. Please, every working composer out there marvels at how far forward Williams is.

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1. Except for the Lord of the Rings Shore hasn't done anything equally notable.

I see you never listened to The Fly, am I wrong? :roll:

Ricard - Who thinks that LOTR score is just mediocre (although a bit better than the movie).

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Ricard - Who thinks that LOTR score is just mediocre (although a bit better than the movie).

:roll:

What, you didn't like that tie Aragorn was wearing?

Stefancos- who thinks Silence Of The Lambs and Se7en are outstanding scores.

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Ricard - Who thinks that LOTR score is just mediocre (although a bit better than the movie).

:roll:

What, you didn't like that tie Aragorn was wearing?

LOL :mrgreen:

Luke, Who also thinks that FOTR is not THAT great.

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What, you didn't like that tie Aragorn was wearing?

I don't know what tie you're referring to, Stef.

I found the movie utterly boring and simplistic. It didn't make me want to know what was gonna happen next, and I didn't care at all for any of the characters. Not the best script in the world, IMHO.

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Which one was Aragorn? Who was the cute guy helping the three hobits and is engaged to Liv Tyler's character? Now I didn't like what he was wearing at all, far too much, he could have shown more skin IMHO!!!!! :mrgreen: And as for Legolass/Justin Timberlake/Elf man, now he was cute too, however out of all the cute guys I have to say that there wasn't enough of the women, like Live Tyler... I would have loved to see more of her (fully clothed and kicking ass of course)

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HP&TSS is my least favorite Williams score since Stepmom. Not that it's bad--I still listen to it occasionally. I just haven't found anything that moves me in the score. The Phantom Menace had its "Leaving Home" cue, A.I...well, all of it is beautiful. Episode II had the love theme. Minority Report has the beautiful Sean's Theme. Harry Potter just seems like Hook without the freshness to me.

With that said, I'm not looking forward to a second Harry Potter score as I am looking forward to most other scores this year. This Ross character might find a new approach that I'll like.

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HP&TSS is my least favorite Williams score since Stepmom. Not that it's bad--I still listen to it occasionally. I just haven't found anything that moves me in the score

What about the middle of The Chess Game?

I found the movie utterly boring and simplistic. It didn't make me want to know what was gonna happen next, and I didn't care at all for any of the characters. Not the best script in the world, IMHO.

If you read the book, it should fix these problems for you :)

One thing the script definately did have is emotional depth.

Morn - Who loves the film

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I don't know what tie you're referring to, Stef.

Who's Stef?

Stefancos- :?:

You, of course. It's an abbreviation, just like 'Ric'.

What tie you say that guy was wearing?

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You, of course. It's an abbreviation, just like 'Ric'.

What tie you say that guy was wearing?

You must be mistaken, the correct abbreviation of my name is "Steef", I figured you would have known this by now, since i have been correcting people about this for over 2 years now. :)

As for the tie, it was a joke, forget it.

Stefancos- who doesn't mind ties, even on action heroes. :)

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You must be mistaken, the correct abbreviation of my name is "Steef", I figured you would have known this by now, since i have been correcting people about this for over 2 years now.  

Reeeeaaallyyy. :twisted:

As for the tie, it was a joke, forget it.

No kidding. :)

Stefancos- who doesn't mind ties, even on action heroes. :)

I don't mind ties either, but only if they fit the character. :)

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You must be mistaken, the correct abbreviation of my name is "Steef", I figured you would have known this by now, since i have been correcting people about this for over 2 years now.  :)  

You expect people to listen to you? :)

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Well, I have to disagree on the fact "that Williams' HPSS isn't great". When I first bought the score, I was thinking to myself, "oh, this is nice but not nearly as good as some others." Then I saw the movie. I thought, "oh the music is much better in the movie".

But here it is 7 months later and I'm still listening to the same score.

Here's why: I find that listening to the cd completely through satisfies my soul. The themes repeat themselves in the most timely places. I am impressed with Williams' ability to capture the innocence of character and still be so very emotional with it's development. My favorite tracks are: Hedwig's Theme for it's gorgeously simple theme.

Harry Wonderous World great string melody.

The Quidditch Match for the velocity of emotion it resembles AND how Harry's Wonderous World is woven in to it.

The Mirror of Erised music is so thoughtful and the melody is spectacular on the croatales (sp?) and harp.

I love the Chess Match. - the rhythm gets me every time.

And my absolute favorite is the second to last track that is played at the end of the movie ( I don't have my cd here it's in my car)

I have to conduct it EVERY time I hear it. The last minute or so give me chills! I think it's the Family Portrait music and Hedwig's Theme is reflected briefly before the close. I think it's magic! (no pun!)

I hope it inspires someone, anyone to take a better listen!

Ren

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No, Williams has a much higher quality of composition. LOTR? Bah, it has basic orchestration. Davis is better but still not on Williams level. Williams is a true master of orchestration.

Huh huh. Davis, not a "true master of orchestration" ? Stop being blind please. Being a JW fan doesn't mean you can't recognise a good orchestrator. Don Davis is obviously one of the best orchestrators right now. His work on Matrix has a far better orchestration than a lot of Williams' works.

Hellgi

As far as i know, Davis only orchestra work was JPIII, Matrix was done with sinthethizer....

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No, Williams has a much higher quality of composition. LOTR? Bah, it has basic orchestration. Davis is better but still not on Williams level. Williams is a true master of orchestration.

Huh huh. Davis, not a "true master of orchestration" ? Stop being blind please. Being a JW fan doesn't mean you can't recognise a good orchestrator. Don Davis is obviously one of the best orchestrators right now. His work on Matrix has a far better orchestration than a lot of Williams' works.

Hellgi

As far as i know, Davis first orchestra work was JPIII, Matrix was done with sinthethizer....

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No, Williams has a much higher quality of composition. LOTR? Bah, it has basic orchestration. Davis is better but still not on Williams level. Williams is a true master of orchestration.

Huh huh. Davis, not a "true master of orchestration" ? Stop being blind please. Being a JW fan doesn't mean you can't recognise a good orchestrator. Don Davis is obviously one of the best orchestrators right now. His work on Matrix has a far better orchestration than a lot of Williams' works.

Hellgi

As far as i know, Davis first orchestra work was JPIII, Matrix was done with sinthethizer....

I can assure you that The Matrix is far more than "sinthethizer"...

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No, Williams has a much higher quality of composition. LOTR? Bah, it has basic orchestration. Davis is better but still not on Williams level. Williams is a true master of orchestration.

Huh huh. Davis, not a "true master of orchestration" ? Stop being blind please. Being a JW fan doesn't mean you can't recognise a good orchestrator. Don Davis is obviously one of the best orchestrators right now. His work on Matrix has a far better orchestration than a lot of Williams' works.

Hellgi

well then, i just read an interview with davis that said so.. but surely i'm mistaken. no matter.

As far as i know, Davis first orchestra work was JPIII, Matrix was done with sinthethizer....

I can assure you that The Matrix is far more than "sinthethizer"...

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Well, I have to disagree on the fact "that Williams' HPSS isn't great". When I first bought the score, I was thinking to myself, "oh, this is nice but not nearly as good as some others." Then I saw the movie. I thought, "oh the music is much better in the movie".  

I think it is great. But it's not a work that is like... ubergreat. IE, Schinder's List or TESB. We already have the first score and 40 minutes of the 2nd score is enough for me. I don't think it's great enough to be very thirty for the next score :mrgreen:

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I see you never listened to The Fly, am I wrong?  :roll:  

No, I didn't. 8O

Sorry I didn't have time to reply sooner. Ricard, I mean I didn't intend to

discredit Howard Shore's merits in any way, and I like the score to Lord of

the Rings and its ability to set me quivering from excitement. It was my

misdemeanor to throw a judgment upon Shore's entire carrier by "having

come across" what's hardly one third of all of his work (The Cell, Dogma,

Analyze this, Cop Land, Before and After, Seven, Philadelphia and The

Client to name them all). But I haven't been engrossed, except for LotR

and perhaps Seven, by anything I've heard from him to date. But I

haven't heard it all, that's true.

I personally gravitate to James Newton Howard's latest scores much

more, especially to his "The Sixth Sense", "Dinosaur" and "Snow Falling

on Cedars" style of scoring.

Yoda L.:alien:

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  • 20 years later...

Two decades later and we still don't know the full story behind who wrote what and how it was spotted. :D

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On 24/06/2002 at 10:58 AM, Yoda Longbottom said:

Who is William Ross? Regardless of how cool he may be, why should he DEVELOP Williams' music? Why on earth any body is assigned to do so? Is Harry Potter II gonna end up as an offshoot of the likes of Jurassic Park III - John's themes developed by someone else...?

Tell more whom this all makes sense to to cheer me up healthily......

:)

Yoda L.-(

Yoda Longbottom

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