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Favorite Williams Counterpoint?


Henry B

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Augmented 6th chord in "Aunt Marge's Waltz" at 1:47, lasting a full two bars, in classic Romantic style ;)

Sorry to be such an annoying know-it-all :music: but the chord you are refering to isn't an augmented 6th. The flat 6 is there but not the raised 4. The chord is actually a flat-VI 7 (borrowed) over a pedal V.

Welcome to JWFan. I'm not always this annoying BTW.

Pixie

Annoying? Compared to AlexCremers or JoeinAr, you're still working on bothersome.

. . . but I do find myself agreeing with Bowie here. In the key of G Major, you have an Eb, G, Bb, Db which would spell a German 6th chord resolving to a V. Though G6 chords often resolve to 2nd inversion I chords they also progress to root position V (haven't figured out how to do superscripts on here).

Strictly speaking the Db should be written as C# owing to the need to resolve up to a V. However these things are often enharmonically respelled. However, the note we're talking about here, whether we call it Db or C# i(ie the raised 4th) is NOT present in that chord in Aunt Marge's Waltz. Therefore the chord is not an augmented 6th. It is definitely a flat VI chord. This chord also acts as a chromatic pre-dominant (like the aug 6th) and so it still resolves to V, as you pointed out.

Homework for next class is to try and find a genuine augmented 6th chord in a Williams score. I'm taking this as a serious challenge! :music:

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I liked the way Williams overlapped the "Han and Leia" and "Luke and Leia themes in ROTJ.

It makes a nice transition between the physical love between Han and Leia and the Sibling love between Luke and Leia.

OR was it physical love in both cases? :music:

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Instead of resting your case you should've "let it rest", nja.  

----------------

Alex Cremers

If that's what it takes, so be it.

:music:

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Strictly speaking the Db should be written as C# owing to the need to resolve up to a V. However these things are often enharmonically respelled. However, the note we're talking about here, whether we call it Db or C# i(ie the raised 4th) is NOT present in that chord in Aunt Marge's Waltz. Therefore the chord is not an augmented 6th. It is definitely a flat VI chord. This chord also acts as a chromatic pre-dominant (like the aug 6th) and so it still resolves to V, as you pointed out.

Not trying to be argumentative but I am interested in this (whether it matters greatly or not). It does come down to whether or not the C#/Db is present, but I think it is there in the wind parts. It's especially noticeable on the descending runs. I know it's more of a scale passage than a block chord, but IMO it does affect the harmonic context of the chord. I think if I had students analyzing the score, I would want them to notice that, but I probably wouldn't count it incorrect if they had it as a borrowed- I dunno . . .

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A quick run-down of notable Aug6s in JW

From ?Hedwig?s Theme? in HPSS

Hedwig?s Theme (0:15) -- Fr+6

Nimbus 2000 Theme 3:27 -- Ger+6

From ?The Chamber of Secrets? in HPPOA

Chamber of Secrets Theme (1:10) -- Ger +6?

From ?The Tale of Victor Navorski? in The Terminal

Victor?s Theme (0:24) ? Ger+6

From Schindler?s List

?Theme from Schindler?s List Reprise? (1:01) --- Fr+6

?Jewish Town: Krakow Ghetto ?41? (1:41) ? Ger+6

and several moments from "Smee's Plan" from Hook

But I'm sure they're plenty more

As for Aunt Marge, I agree that despite first intuitions, it's not an Aug6. Though when I first listened to the track, I was almost expecting to hear that extra note in the chord! But, in the context of the piece, I don't think it would make much sense, considering the unusual chord JW moves to after the chord in question (unusual for Rossini, at least).

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Good work, Falstaf, here are my comments:

From ?Hedwig?s Theme? in HPSS

Hedwig?s Theme (0:15) -- Fr+6 >>> How is this an aug6? (C#, E, F#, A#... with a G# falling to E in the melody) It's not even an It+6 and hardly resolves commonly.

Nimbus 2000 Theme 3:27 -- Ger+6 >>> How the heck did you spot this! It's terribly fast but at the very last split second, the chord formed from bass up is A, B#, D, F# (Gr+65 in 2nd inversion, ie. Gr+42) and that helps it change key via F# common tone to F# minor!

From ?The Chamber of Secrets? in HPPOA

Chamber of Secrets Theme (1:10) -- Ger +6? >>> this is definitely augmented 6th, but German/French etc I can't really tell. (G and A both leading to Ab

From ?The Tale of Victor Navorski? in The Terminal

Victor?s Theme (0:24) ? Ger+6 >>> yep, well done! this is pretty uncontentionable.

From Schindler?s List

?Theme from Schindler?s List Reprise? (1:01) --- Fr+6 >>> yep, although it forgoes the V chord resolution entirely, for means of evoking disbelief or whatever, I would presume...

?Jewish Town: Krakow Ghetto ?41? (1:41) ? Ger+6 >>> yep, with some other added note.. :S

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Wow... this brings tears to my eyes - there are other theory geeks out there! :music:

1. Aunt Marge's Waltz - I've listened to that bit a few times and I can't hear the C# either, except maybe in the wind run, but there are so many passing tones (it is a chromatic run) that the C# is fairly trivial. He sets up that flat VI and lets it sit there for so many beats that one tiny C# in passing doesn't give quite the effect of a real Ger6-V progression. Although it's fun to listen and imagine a C# on the top!

2. Hedwig's Theme - let's see here. Are we talking about the first beat of m. 14, Bb/A# on top? We're in e minor, so a Fr6 would be f#, a#, c, e? I think I can hear that, spelled c, e, f#, a#? Good find! I think this is a genuine one!

3. Chamber of Secrets Theme - I'm having trouble hearing this because it's so quick! It's going along in c# minor, so a Ger6 would sound like an A7. I hear something that has the effect of an Aug 6... i.e, something strange.

I don't have The Terminal or Schindler's List yet, but I do have Smee's Plan and I'll analyze that next.

This is a lot of fun - thanks!! We've hit German, Italian, French 6ths. Now shall we look for Neapolitan 6s? Lots of fun ones in Smee's Plan!

SeekUYoda, who knows that Ger6 and N6 aren't really similar at all but really likes N6s.

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Wow... this brings tears to my eyes - there are other theory geeks out there! :)

2. Hedwig's Theme - let's see here.  Are we talking about the first beat of m. 14, Bb/A# on top?  We're in e minor, so a Fr6 would be f#, a#, c, e?  I think I can hear that, spelled c, e, f#, a#?  Good find!  I think this is a genuine one!

This is a lot of fun - thanks!!  We've hit German, Italian, French 6ths.  Now shall we look for Neapolitan 6s?  Lots of fun ones in Smee's Plan!

SeekUYoda, who knows that Ger6 and N6 aren't really similar at all but really likes N6s.

LOL i thought we just covered Neapolitan 6ths, which is what the Aunt Marge's Waltz chord is if not augmented, right? You co-theory geeks are starting to confuse me a bit!

And by the way, the Hedwig's Theme chord in contention is DEFINITELY NOT augmented, as it is an F# 7th chord, ie. a II7 (F#, A#, C#, E - yes, it really is a C SHARP!!), however, if the piece modulated from e to f (or to an f chord being V of Bb) it would then function as an enharmonic Ger-4/2, but there is certainly no trace of French.

Can we have some more assignments please?! :mrgreen:

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This is awesome! I was worried I was going to piss people off with my initial post, but now I see I'm not alone!!! I'm going to listen to Falstaft's aug 6ths right now!

Don't forget you can also have aug 6th chords that resolve to root position I. Schubert uses them to create a "weak" ending (weak meaning pathetic/sad, NOT bad!!!) in his songs. In C the chord would be Db F Ab B.

Ok here's a good assignment. Circle of fifths in Williams? I'm sure there are many, but it will be quite hard to find them as they tend to stabalize a key, and Williams music always seems to be modulating!

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LOL i thought we just covered Neapolitan 6ths, which is what the Aunt Marge's Waltz chord is if not augmented, right? You co-theory geeks are starting to confuse me a bit!

A Neopolitan 6 HAS to be a flat II chord. The flat VI in Aunt Marge would only count as a Neopolitan if the chord V had just been tonicized, giving it the temporary status of Tonic.

The number 6 is used differently in Neopolitan 6s from Augmented 6ths. In aug 6ths it means the interval between the notes that form the augmented sonority (Ab and F# is an aug 6th interval). But in Neopolitans it means first inversion, the 6 refering to the figured bass symbol for 1st inversion.

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Hey Pixie, you should start a new thread called The Harmony of JW's Music or something like that to talk about this kind of stuff.

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Wow, thinking of a substantial circle of fifths progression in JW's music is a lot harder than I thought it'd be. The only one that comes to mind immediately is rather paltry too, the conclusion of his concert arr. of the Shark Cage Fugue on the Spielberg-Williams Collaboration album (track 6, 3:57-4:09), where we get a pretty standard i-VI-iio7-V-i progression. The Theme from Schindler's List comes close too, with a i-vi7-VII7-IIIMA7-iio7-V-i, but since it skips VI on the way there, it's not a complete circle-o-5ths. (for both examples, the ii chord is half diminished, btw.)

I'm positive there are plenty of other examples, circle of fifths progressions being so common in all tonal music. I'd be most likely to hunt in his more poppish and/or "Hollywood" themes where these things like to crop up. Maybe somewhere in the Cantina Band or Can You Read My Mind.

Now here's a REAL challenge. Find an example of an Aug6 chord in an inversion! I know there is at least one, in a very difficult piece of JW's that I did an analysis of a way back. Hint hint, it's from a Star Wars

prequel.

:mrgreen:

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There are two sets of circle-of-fifths in one of the fast-paced Hook action cues, played by strings with a drooping pizz bass or something, a very common device. Can't be stuffed searching for it though.

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  • 9 years later...

My favourite bits of Williams counterpoint are when he does a canon in two (for those who don't know, when a melody is initiated by another set of instruments after a rest). For example in the climax of 'The Dinosaurs' from JP or the 'Shark Cage Fugue' from JAWS.

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2:49 of 3m3 The Snow Battle, the opening of the cue juxtaposed with the tense brass "melody"

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This isn't actually what counterpoint means. I didn't know what I was talking about ten years ago.

Wait... I've been here ten years?

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Wow. Two months shy of ten years, and this thread pops up again. Guess nothing ever truly dies around here. . . .

As pixie said, most of today's musical standards would count any two melodic lines played simultaneously as counterpoint. By stricter (and more traditional) definitions, most of the examples here wouldn't qualify, no—though they're all still perfectly valid examples of masterful writing by the Maestro. And more interesting to identify and talk about, too.

One of my favorite examples of "traditional" contrapuntal writing in Williams' music can be found in the Spielberg/Williams Collaboration version of "Out to Sea." Each section gets involved—the strings playing in counterpoint against each other, the horn counterpointing the piccolo, then pretty much everyone getting involved near the end. Amazingly complex writing, and beautifully performed.

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