*** Urgent Star Wars DVD News ***

[Jim Ware 526]

Until John Williams speaks up live with it.

[Hlao-roo 389]

From the Washington Post Live Discussion with the Star Wars DVD producer Van Ling at noon today... (not anything new or informative, but still relevant)

Alexandria, Va.: I understand from the DVD specialty site, Digital Bits, that there are some disturbing audio glitches that the studio is explaining as "intentional." The glitches in Episode IV include a swapping of the left and right rear channels; the trumpet fanfare that used to play right after Red Leader says: "This is it!" and just as the X-wings start diving towards the Death Star's surface has been dialed back in volume so that it's almost inaudible; and audio quality that varies wildly e.g. - as Tarkin says the line: "You would prefer another target, a military target? Then name the system." The sound element seems damaged.

Are you aware of these points, and if so, are you aware of efforts to correct the problem?

Van Ling: I'm not involved in the original audio or picture for the films at all, but I understand that Ben Burtt and the creative folks at Lucasfilm have addressed that concern in a statement. The presentation of the films has varied for years, with certain lines being changed or dropped or levels changing, and they certainly have the ability to do what they want, so I have to trust that what you see on the DVD is what they intended, even if you may disagree with their choices.  

...

Halifax, NS: Are you surprised at the attention the sound issues with EPIV:ANH are getting? As a DVD Producer, how difficult is it to have people focus on things like the film changes and the audio issues instead of reveling in a long awaited release that you and your team worked many hours on?

Van Ling: It's always a challenge. Imagine your kid goes out on stage in the school play for the first time and all people focus on is his or her braces or a pimple. There's a lot of great work and effort that was put into this DVD set, and I'm sorry to see distractions to people seeing that. But at the same time, it's amazing to see how attentive the fans are. I appreciate how much they care.  

...

Delray Beach, Fla.: Along the lines of the audio issue: If you turn on the French track, the missing audio cues are correct, but on the English and Spanish they are not. Wouldn't this quailify as a defect and not the creative intention that was stated in the press release this a.m.?

Van Ling: I suppose it depends on point of view. I've noticed that there are often a lot of differences between the domestic and international versions of the films, even including the names of characters. That said, I trust that the folks at Lucasfilm are standing by their statement and are taking responsibility for it by addressing the issue as they see fit. Which is not to say that you don't have the right to disagree.

[Henry B 50]

What an idiot.

[Eplicon 53]

Harrumph. The French 2.0 audio track has the goddamn music where it's supposed to be.

[Frank Vincent 234]

The Dutch A New Hope DVD also has the music backwards.

[Lurker 5]

How the heck does anyone know where certain insturments are supposed to be coming from? No one does, unless they are the composer, so I don't believe anyone in this thread has the right to demand a re-issue. Only John Williams can do that. People in this thread do however, have a right to not like it. But not to force that on anyone else.

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

Neil, I thought that your response was highly appropriate, although I'm not sure if anyone else did.

Thanks. I thought it was appropriate, too. It was much more polite than my initial response.

And I should thank Alex for pointing out that "Orchestra Placement" site in the first place. The people at the HTF still refuse to believe that though, the fools.

Neil

[ulric 0]

Well, I don't think it's error.

The most common practice to product a dolby surround mix is to rotate the orchestra around the audience. Compared to the stereo mix, yes, you can say that instruments that you have gotten used to hear from the left, now come from the right. But it's a correct mix, the orchestra now behind you still needs to be facing you. It's rotate 180 degrees around you. The rest is reverberation of the room.

It's only wrong for the people who have memorized the stereo mix and belive that to the only way to hear it.

[Lurker 5]

Well, I don't think it's error.

The most common practice to product a dolby surround mix is to rotate the orchestra around the audience.  Compared to the stereo mix, yes, you can say that instruments that you have gotten used to hear from the left, now come from the right.  But it's a correct mix, the orchestra now behind you still needs to be facing you.  It's rotate 180 degrees around you.  The rest is reverberation of the room.

It's only wrong for the people who have memorized the stereo mix and belive that to the only way to hear it.

Then you clearly haven't listened to many multi-channel surround mixes. Try listening to the music re-mix on Superman - The Movie. This had the same composer, same orchestra and the same recording engineer as Star Wars and the DVD even has a 5.1 isolated music track. You'll hear that the music was mixed properly on that.

Neil

[John Crichton 4]

And we've had our first person join simply to argue with Neil. A waste of time. Neil's right, if a bit over the top in his arguments sometimes. Get over it. And this is coming from a Lucas fan.

[Lurker 5]

And we've had our first person join simply to argue with Neil. A waste of time. Neil's right, if a bit over the top in his arguments sometimes. Get over it. And this is coming from a Lucas fan.

Not a Bulk fan?

Neil

[King Mark 3,631]

Meh,these mix issues are a minor irritation compared to the disastrous GoF news.

K.M.

[ulric 0]

True, I indeed just joined today, but I am hoping I did to bring elements that can be of value, it isn't just for the sake of arguing.

Technically, it doesn't matter that it's different on another DVD. There are many ways to 'fake' surround effects by just adding reverb or other spacial effects; those are "more wrong", and may not what the people at lucas film wanted to do.

In nature, the orchestra cannot be moved to be behind you and have the instruments be on the same side as when it was in front of you. If it did, then the orchestra is not facing you and you're no longer in front of the violins but rather behind the percussions, the whole balance of the orchestra would be different.

Separately, you also cannot really be sitting in the middle of the orchestra, which is what the surround "reverb effects" attempt to fake, including variations of Pro Logic and other fake surround effects generators. It would change the balance as well.

Therefore, I would use caution before rejecting the comment that it was a creative dicision. If one makes the creative decision that the orchestra is behind the viewer, then it makes sense to rotate orchestra around the audience.

[Lurker 5]

Therefore, I would use caution before rejecting the comment that it was a creative dicision.  If one makes the creative decision that the orchestra is behind the viewer, then it makes sense to rotate orchestra around the audience.

You're Ben Burtt, aren't you? Why would you have the music behind you and in front of you? Are there now two orchestras? No, the mix is just messed up. There actually is a proper way to mix multi channel orchestral music. Star Wars reversed it.

If it was intentional, why weren't the sequels re-mixed this way as well?

Neil

[Hlao-roo 389]

If it was intentional, why weren't the sequels re-mixed this way as well?

They're not calling it a "creative" decision for nothing, Neil.

[Lurker 5]

Ironically, iTunes now has "The Battle of Yavin" for sale and the thirty second audio clip is the section that is now dialed out in the film.

Neil - who knew this wouldn't be a real thread without an Apple reference

[hoby12 0]

I agree its a mistake. Perhaps we will get new DVD's and a new mix when 7.1 mixing becomes main stream. This new mix is pretty weak in general. I just watched the first ten minutes of ANH and noticed that the music fader rides real low during the star destoyer flyover right after the crawl - it just seems pretty lame. Is this different then the other releases - I don't have the other versions to compare to? It seems like sound wise there is not much going on there and its quite noticeable. At Disneyland there is some ride which has a 13 channel mixdown - i think a bruce broughton piece. Mixing like that with that many channels is an art - 5.1 is a standard practice - i wonder if the board they used for this mix was messed up. I do see plenty of engineers intown here in LA drinking coffee and such right over their 2million dollar board. they are crazy!

I can not believe after all this time they have messups like this. It is not like it was rushed to get out - they have had plenty of years! BTW - Anyone else's box messed up?? My embossing is way off from the print on the box. If I knew how to upload a picture I could post a pic of it. Didn't even notice at the store. I just feel like taking it back. Anyway SW Battleground looks cool - anyone buy it yet?

[hoby12 0]

PS i am pissed that SW Battlefront is not coming out for MAC. I have to use my Xbox which means I cannot play it unless i subscribe to their non sense pay on line BS. go macs.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Therefore, I would use caution before rejecting the comment that it was a creative dicision.  If one makes the creative decision that the orchestra is behind the viewer, then it makes sense to rotate orchestra around the audience.

You're Ben Burtt, aren't you?

The point still stands. Every single other multi-channel mix has the orchestra mixed properly in the surrounds. Violins on the left.

The reverb argument sounds like bullocks to me. It makes no sense for sound from a source on your left to reverb from your right and vice versa at the same time.

- Marc

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I didn't scan over the whole thread but can someone clear this up?

Does Han shoot first again? I heard some reports that in the new DVD they changed it back to the way it was or at least partially fixed it.

I've heard alot of conflicting reports on this one so I was really wondering.

[Morlock 11]

I heard from a few places that they shoot more or less at the same time.

BTW, anyone listen to the commentaries? anything good there? any Williams references?

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I heard from a few places that they shoot more or less at the same time.

Yeah that was the latest thing I'd heard.

However, I was wondering if anyone who has seen the final DVD could confirm this.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I can send you a clip.

Han and greedo shoot at the same time, and han moves a little to evade the bolt

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I can send you a clip.

Han and greedo shoot at the same time, and han moves a little to evade the bolt

Get out? He does? Well that is at least somewhat better.

Not perfect but a DEFINITE step in the right direction.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

do you want to see it?

[Rogue_Leader 2]

You said you could send me a clip? You got a link? You can PM or put up a link here I guess.

Sure I would love to see it! Thank you!

[Lurker 5]

Greedo still shoots first. And Han fires twice, only his first shot doesn't seem to do anything.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Greedo still shoots first.  And Han fires twice, only his first shot doesn't seem to do anything.

Neil

I noticed it too when i watched the shoot second about 10 times following.

It looked very strange. Is it two shots or poorly done one?

[Lurker 5]

Is it two shots or poorly done one?

Both.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

I knew it

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

The reverb argument sounds like bullocks to me. It makes no sense for sound from a source on your left to reverb from your right and vice versa at the same time.

Yes, that's the real point. A general reversion of the sound channels could be a creative decision (I'd strongly doubt even that, after all, what's the point), but putting the reverb of the left front channel in the right rear and the reverb of the right front channel in the left rear doesn't make sense at all.

Marian -

[TownerFan 4,983]

I bought my copy of the DVD-boxset today.

Just a quick note from me concerning the snafu about the "missing cue" from A NEW HOPE:

In the Italian language version, the sequence when the X-Wings dive toward the Death Star plays as it played since 1977: the Force theme is blaring out loud from my speakers. When you switch to the English language track, the music is definitely there, but it's buried under loud sound fx.

Since I'm genuinely fond to the Italian dubbed version of STAR WARS (even though generally I prefer to watch movies in the original language), I have really nothing to bitch about.

BTW, the visual and aural quality is stunning to my eyes/ears.

[Eplicon 53]

I don't buy Lucasfilm's statement in the slightest. On the eve of the most anticipated film series of all-time to reach DVD, what're they going to say? "Oh, yes. We have a problem that needs to be rectified in the months ahead, so please don't buy it in the meantime."

They can't even press a DVD properly. There has been talk about the Star Wars disc (as far as I know, it's just region 1?) having various playing problems. Mine happens to be one of them! When Obi-Wan starts to talk about the million voices and silence he hears after Alderaan becomes one with Force, he stutters the line and the picture gets all pixelated before the movie resumes.

[Lurker 5]

Does it look like this?

Neil

[Eplicon 53]

Yeah, but not as bad.

I think it might be a player issue, since my friend's Panasonic player (a much more recent makel than my five year old Toshiba) played the scene without a hitch. I guess error detection technology has gone a long way since then. Oh, well.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

1. The sound mix is dumb, but not a huge issue with me.

2. Pixelation during Kenobi's speech. Yes, Ithought it was just the cheaper DVD player I was playing it on, but I see some of you see the same thing that I do. I have several players, I'll try it on each and see if it happens on others in the future.

3. The Greedo/Han thing still looks dumb, as it did in 1997. I have agreed with many of the changes on the SE's, but this is not one of them. The 1977 version is best for this scene... even if it happens so fast that it's hard to notice. Even my mom noticed how bad it looked.

4. My mom, however, was SPLENDIDLY happy to see Hayden as a Jedi spirit at the end of ROTJ and said it's worth the price of the entire set. You know what? You purists are gonna' hate me for this, but I actually felt moved by seeing the Hayden's Anakin there! Sabastian Shaw always looked too old, and there was no real connection other than saying "OH! Well, that's nice, there's Anakin's ghost finding redemption". My mom, however, said the same thing that I was thinking... Even though she wasn't a Jedi, it would have been cool to see Padme there, and if Luke and Leia saw them, it would have been very touching. But, you can't digitally re-create 1983-era-hottie Leia's face looking at the spirits... (I suppose Lucas will try in the future though, LOL!) But... God forbid... you purist, original-version-worshippers may need to kill me for even saying this much!

5. Some have complained about the video quality and how the colors look over-saturated... to me, it never looked better. It's all fine with me. I can enjoy each version for it's strengths and weaknesses. And you people who worship the original theatrical versions... they are filled with just as many errors, if not more, so why throw a fit now? Every movie has them. Just calm down and deal, folks.

6. OK, here's something that DOES bother me. Why didn't they fix that painted-in black smudge over the Emperor's face while he's sitting in his throne taunting Luke? Of all the things that needed fixing... :? (Then again, it's reached a status of semi-comedy... like some side of dark-side power convergience or something. )

[Johnnyecks 33]

Has anyone heard the difference of the 5.1 mix and the 6.1 DD EX mix on these? I was just thinking, that maybe perhaps the audio in that scene would be more noticeable with the newest DD technology. I don't have a 6.1 reciever, only a 5.1 but have considered upgrading. Just curious if anyone here has that setup and has watched the movies in that format.

[Lurker 5]

Has anyone heard the difference of the 5.1 mix and the 6.1 DD EX mix on these? I was just thinking, that maybe perhaps the audio in that scene would be more noticeable with the newest DD technology. I don't have a 6.1 reciever, only a 5.1 but have considered upgrading. Just curious if anyone here has that setup and has watched the movies in that format.

Dolby Digital EX is not 6.1. The "6" there implies it's a discrete channel, and it's not.

And the only time that I watched the movie from start to finish was with the EX channel engaged in my father's home theater.

Neil

[KittBash 282]

Neil that backwards Star Wars in your sig is the prefect illustration for what they did with the surrounds! That should be posted all over the internet in protest!

Brian99_1 - who wishes he had thought of that one

[Morlock 11]

I don't know, at least the A, T and W in that are right, unliked the mix, which gets nothing right.

[KittBash 282]

This is true but it still get the point across quite well of how much of an excuse the creative decision comment is. In a way it 's the same thing.

[Lurker 5]

I don't know, at least the A, T and W in that are right, unliked the mix, which gets nothing right.

The sound effects are properly placed.

Neil

[Morlock 11]

Not on the version I rented. It sound almost flipped (but I only have a simple TV with no extra apeakers, poor me).

[knight_of_ni 0]

Hi everyone! I just discovered this forum and as a fan of John Williams scores I registered immediately!

To the point: I just watched ANH and I found out that what Indysolo was talking about is true, sadly... When horns are heard on the front left channel, they are repeated on the rear left channel even louder! The same happens with left front-right rear. Usually if some music is heard on one channel, it is repeated on the respective rear channel to enhance the 3D sound feeling. But this one sounded like off-phase (reverse wiring of speakers positive and negative wires)... Who knows, maybe they were trying to give the soundstage more volume (in a bad way)... If i tested some speakers using this movie, I would speculate something was wrong with them...

Also, the dialogue changes between "bad" and "good" many times throughout the film which is annoying... For example, after the queen is saved, listen to the dialogue between her and Han Solo in the spaceship. It seems as if some parts were recorded today (with treble hissing) and 30 years later (sounding like a low bitrate mp3 ).

Oh, shit, it is a pretty good movie after all...

[King Mark 3,631]

Can you notice these reverse channels on headphones?

K.M.

[Lurker 5]

Can you notice these reverse channels on headphones?

K.M.

No, you need a 5.1 Dolby Digital set up to hear it.

Neil

[hoby12 0]

This has been a very entertaining thread. Go Neil! As for me - i am pissed about this sound stuff - But more pissed about this

As you can see i was too excited to go home and watch it that i didn't once look at the box.

You think I can take that back to best buy? Lol?

If this was a baseball card it would probly be worth mad dough. Like that Billy Ripken Tops Card with the curse on the bottom of the bat.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Jeez. That's pretty bad. Try to get a new box, man.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

OMG! They can't even get the packaging right! The set looks pretty cheap compared with the nice Indy set we got last year. Ok so the Indy set was missing many of the special features we all wanted (deleted scenes anyone???) but at least the box was solid and the disks were printed so they lined up fine. Damn! I wish Criterion could put out a Star Wars set. They would do it right! Plus I think Criterion would make damn sure to restore the original movies for posterity. Criterion: mmmmmmmmm.

Concerto For Orchestra, Jennifer Higton

[Jeshopk 8]

Greetings knight of ni. Welcome to our board. I was on a Python kick for the past month.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

So, guys... has it bee confirmed that Star Wars (ANH) is the only one with the reversed rear music problem? I notice NOBODY complaining about ESB and ROTJ, but TONS of complaints about SW.

I also think that "creative decision" is an excuse to not recall them for re-ressing.

BTW, a re-pressing would make the originals more valuable to collectors, UNLESS more mistakes exist than the corrected re-prints, then the corrected versions would be more valuable. It's all about rarity. Much like the baseball card error mentioned above. However, on the DVD package... I'm not sure... probably makes it less valuable to have such a nasty-looking f-up like that. I'd take it back to Best Buy and ask for a new one, myself. As for mine, it's pressed right but the black print isn't as dak. It looks quite nice on mine, actually.

Seeing "Widescreen" reminds me. I had my mom pick it up for me and she ran into my uncle (her brother) while she was buying it. She told him that I said "Standard screen is for stupid people" (LOL), and when she said that, another lady nearby who was buying a Pan-&-Scan/Fullscreen version for her son decided to buy BOTH versions for him because he requested it? HUH!? Now THAT'S crazy! LOL!