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[The Prick vs The DD 0]

E ... E ... Ewoks ... A ... stroke ... of ... genius? ......(think)........(think)...................... LOL  

I think they're the farthest thing from geniality.

Well, I just explained why it was.

The problems that fans have with Ewoks usually is to be found elsewhere and has nothing to do with Ewoks....namely themselves. I'm pretty sure most male fans, perhaps unintentionally, emotionally wants to distance themselves from anything cuddly like the Ewoks simply because it isn't macho or a manly thing to like. We shouldn't like them, therefore they don't work. It is what I call the Gay Syndrom: men don't want to be associated with something supposedly less manly. It is ridiculous but it's still prominent. They've learned not to like such things, but that doesn't count as a good argument against the Ewoks. If this is the biggest problem than there is no problem, only with our cultures which has manipulated us into thinking this way.

Because let's face it, have you ever heard of rock solid arguments why Ewoks don't work? I haven't. Sure you could talk about the dragging of the story, but that has got not much to do with the Ewoks themselves.

You haven't heard a set of good arguments, because you can't, not important ones anyway, not in such a way that Ewoks can be completely discredited. As long as you're not talking about special effects of course, cause that can't be helped and the story and believability shouldn't be affected by it.

And *if* you 'can', then why focus on Ewoks and not, let's say, Jawas or other puppets or people in suits? Jawas are Ewoks, they are small, talk gibberish, look cute (but not as cute as Ewoks where most guys have problems with), and act seemingly primitive but are really resourceful and people are walking around in suits. But I haven't heard many people complain about them.

Ewoks no matter whether you like em or not, do work well on the screen. They are important to the story, plot, philosophies and outcome, even for character development and the discoveries of new and changed traits: How C3PO handles admiration and becomes arrogant, R2-D2 loses it -gets mad- and zaps them, Luke developing his powers and how the light side has helped him non-offensively in ways even the Emperor hadn't forseen, Leia's ability to make friends with anyone and anything, Han's acceptance of help from others different than himself and that kindness has virtues. And of course for the audience that not everything is always as it seems, and that we shouldn't judge to quickly. Exactly that which most people are doing concerning the Ewoks. There are many things to be said for them, as a plotpoint and as a message.

Now, that doesn't mean that ROTJ is a brilliant movie, but Ewoks are the least of its flaws if it has any.

Okay so I do agree with a lot being said though. I wanted to make that clear.

However, if you really do have some interesting arguments against them, I really would like to know. Maybe I've overlooked something and perhaps change my views on this.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I figure that the Ultra Super Special Edition of Return of the Jedi will have all the Ewoks digitally replaced with what George really meant to show. You can imagine the next incarnation will be more savage, animal like with really cool digital fur.

[A24 4,331]

E ... E ... Ewoks ... A ... stroke ... of ... genius? ......(think)........(think)...................... LOL  

I think they're the farthest thing from geniality.

Well, I just explained why it was.

The problems that fans have with Ewoks usually is to be found elsewhere and has nothing to do with Ewoks....namely themselves. I'm pretty sure most male fans, perhaps unintentionally, emotionally wants to distance themselves from anything cuddly like the Ewoks simply because it isn't macho or a manly thing to like. We shouldn't like them, therefore they don't work. It is what I call the Gay Syndrom: men don't want to be associated with something supposedly less manly. It is ridiculous but it's still prominent. They've learned not to like such things, but that doesn't count as a good argument against the Ewoks. If this is the biggest problem than there is no problem, only with our cultures which has manipulated us into thinking this way.

Because let's face it, have you ever heard of rock solid arguments why Ewoks don't work? I haven't. Sure you could talk about the dragging of the story, but that has got not much to do with the Ewoks themselves.

You haven't heard a set of good arguments, because you can't, not important ones anyway, not in such a way that Ewoks can be completely discredited. As long as you're not talking about special effects of course, cause that can't be helped and the story and believability shouldn't be affected by it.

And *if* you 'can', then why focus on Ewoks and not, let's say, Jawas or other puppets or people in suits? Jawas are Ewoks, they are small, talk gibberish, look cute (but not as cute as Ewoks where most guys have problems with), and act seemingly primitive but are really resourceful and people are walking around in suits. But I haven't heard many people complain about them.

Ewoks no matter whether you like em or not, do work well on the screen. They are important to the story, plot, philosophies and outcome, even for character development and the discoveries of new and changed traits: How C3PO handles admiration and becomes arrogant, R2-D2 loses it -gets mad- and zaps them, Luke developing his powers and how the light side has helped him non-offensively in ways even the Emperor hadn't forseen, Leia's ability to make friends with anyone and anything, Han's acceptance of help from others different than himself and that kindness has virtues. And of course for the audience that not everything is always as it seems, and that we shouldn't judge to quickly. Exactly that which most people are doing concerning the Ewoks. There are many things to be said for them, as a plotpoint and as a message.

Now, that doesn't mean that ROTJ is a brilliant movie, but Ewoks are the least of its flaws if it has any.

Okay so I do agree with a lot being said though. I wanted to make that clear.

However, if you really do have some interesting arguments against them, I really would like to know. Maybe I've overlooked something and perhaps change my views on this.

You make some good points but in the end we really don't have to like the Ewoks simply because they have fur. We might like them but it's not a given thing. Whether we accept the Ewoks or not depends on how the characters are presented to us. Lucas has to make us believe in the unbelievable, otherwise there is no sympathy. George didn't provide us with a link, something we can correspond to. The first time I saw Yoda, I innerly shouted, "What?! That's a Muppet!". Frank Oz, Keshner and a better script made me forget that I was watching fake-looking puppet. Somehow, "magic" took place. When done "right", I even can believe a inflatable beach ball is a life-threatening menace in Dark Star (J. Carpenter).

Maybe you haven't noticed it but, unlike the Jawa, the Ewoks act much more cudly and infantile (almost to the extreme), as if their main purpose is to appeal a very, very young audience. In fact, they have exactly the same qualities as the Teletubbies. Not to be enchanted by Teletubbies is part of being an adult. Lucas failed to see that. That's why the Ewoks (or their execution) are the farthest thing from geniality that I've ever witnessed on the silver screen. You simply don't serve Teletubbies with a infantile Teletubbie-like script to a grown-up audience.

If George was indeed a genius, then he would have had no difficulty in seducing his audience with his furry creations. But in all fairness, not one creature in ROTJ appealed to me, not even R2D2 and C3PO. Heck, I did not even like Han Solo and he was one of my favorite characters. Almost everything feels wrong is this movie and the Ewoks are no exception to that.

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Alex Cremers

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I am 100% willing to bet anyone on here, this will not be the last edition of the OT released either.

Sure I know its obvious but I am saying its practically a given.

[A24 4,331]

I am 100% willing to bet anyone on here, this will not be the last edition of the OT released either.

Sure I know its obvious but I am saying its practically a given.

Hmmm, sigh, this topic was just getting interesting.

[Henry B 50]

I hate Teletubbies and stuff like that, but had little problem with the Ewoks. I think this is just because of a tendency to automatically like something because it's Star Wars, but that whole mindset has been receding recently, so, I dunno.

[Lurker 5]

"You must unlearn what you have learned."

Neil

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Yes Neil, give in to your hatred.

[Henry B 50]

"You must unlearn what you have learned."

Ha-ha. Yeah. A few years ago, I had myself convinced, for some reason, that every Star Wars movie was perfect. Now I am viewing them more objectively, and as it turns out, Attack of the Clones sucks.

...I still like Jedi, though.

[A24 4,331]

...I still like Jedi, though.

Seems the press and critics are finally learning that Jedi isn't a very good movie after all (I believe the average rating is 49% now), something I've been proclaiming since 1983.

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Alex Cremers

[hoby12 0]

Thats in the same spirit as classical music critics saying the Mozart 40 or Beethoven Pathetique are trite pieces. They still are really fine though many amateurs also appreciate them. It seems when people reach a certain familarity with the subject they suddenly become too good to listen to the pieces that amateurs also like.

[A24 4,331]

Thats in the same spirit as classical music critics saying the Mozart 40 or Beethoven Pathetique are trite pieces.  They still are really fine though many amateurs also appreciate them. It seems when people reach a certain familarity with the subject they suddenly become too good to listen to the pieces that amateurs also like.

I don't think that's the case here. When I saw it in 1983, I was a Star Wars fan as well as a movie fan. As a Star Wars fan I was thoroughly dissapointed*, as a movie fan I was deeply insulted*. I believe that people who saw ROTJ as a kid are usually still loving it today. They're still seeing it through a child's eyes. I think the film worked better for kids than it did for grown-ups.

*Too many reasons to list.

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Alex Cremers

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

My problem with Ewoks:

Furry midgets armed with nothing but sticks, rocks, and pebbles swung from midget arms beat down much larger, military trained, armed, and ARMORED adult human beings. AKA: "An entire legion of my best troops". If the damn suite can't stop a laser blast, and can't stop a pebble or a stick swung by a teddy bear... why the hell are they worn?! I have no problem with the elaborate traps they used to take down the AT-STs and such... those maked sense, and were very believable. The Ewok vs. stormtrooper beat-downs... didn't.

I also think the ewok theme is the worst Star Wars theme in 5 existing movies. Just my opinion, I don't need elaborate details of how someone hates a quote-unquote lame or boring prequel theme or something.

to me, it was a good idea, but the trooper beat-downs were just weak, and the lamest thing in the five existing Star Wars films.

One postive thing about the ewoks: They made more women like Star wars. Something I approved of even as a 9 year old in 1983. Got me some brownie points with the dames when i brought my cute ewok baby teddy bear to school. Nippet was mine and my bro (then 7) had Leeni. However, then convincing the babes that the Ewoks weren't the ONLY good thing about Star Wars was quite another thing. Ah... metal bikini Leia was one of the Chrusher's very first crushes.

Also, saying this, I still love all five Star Wars films, but clearly the OT are superior. And sue me, chumps... The DVD editions are the best of all! WAAHOOO!

[hoby12 0]

hmm now that I think of it.....

midgets in fur suits throwing spears at heavilly armored soldiers twice their size with blaster rifles and armor support?

once again thats wood vs lazers............

but then again - I bet Lucas sold alot of Ewok costumes for halloween that fall....

i guess it doesn't bother me that much - during the forest battle i am pretty much consumed by the brilliant score at that point....

[A24 4,331]

Read about the Ewoks and 49 other reasons that explain why Jedi sucks.

http://www.digiserve.com/eescape/closet/si...Jedi-Sucks.html

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Alex Cremers

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Didn't we have that link already?

[Lurker 5]

Yep!.

Neil

[A24 4,331]

Didn't we have that link already?

I didn't know Neil posted it yesterday. I'll hope you're not thinking I'm copycatting Indysolo.

Anyway, print out the list and hang it on your bedroom wall. Please, kneel before it every time you go to bed.

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Alex Cremers

[Lurker 5]

Didn't we have that link already?

I didn't know Neil posted it yesterday. I'll hope you're not thinking I'm copycatting Indysolo.

I can't be the only person here that reads every post here, right?

Neil

[ChrisAfonso 186]

I read the list, and my opinion is: If you base your appreciation of a movie on how many bad elements it has, not howmany good, fine, but don't try to persuade me of that pessimistic POV.

Only he can be easily offended who easily feels offended. Most of the points on that list are minor complaints in my eye, and I just don't waste much thought on them when watching the movie and rather focus on the parts that really stand out.

[Jeshopk 8]

I don't understand why Ewoks are seen as "cutesy" and "childish" when as a kid they were alternately frightening, disturbing, and sometimes adorable, like a cat.

Wicket was the cute one, but most of the other ones are despicable and have wierd, pinched tenor voices.

Some of them look pretty real, while other times, you can imagine the midget inside because of the baggy seams.

But overall, they're still a success to my 29 year old eyes and ears. Maybe I wouldn't mind if GL made them blink (not a slow "animator's" blink, but a realistic blink) just for that extra little bit of authenticity.

[A24 4,331]

Didn't we have that link already?

I didn't know Neil posted it yesterday. I'll hope you're not thinking I'm copycatting Indysolo.

I can't be the only person here that reads every post here, right?

Neil

No, but maybe, Neil, you saw me posting the link somewhere elsewhere. You see, I've used the list before to silence some other ROTJ apostels.

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Alex Cremers

[Lurker 5]

Our links actually go to two different places. Same list, different URLs.

Neil

[Jeshopk 8]

I bought a vintage hammerhead action figure on ebay. Surprisingly, having it sitting on my desk has been the most effective advertising for the DVD's. I think I may cave and buy them with my 25% off Borders coupon.

[The Prick vs The DD 0]

You make some good points but in the end we really don't have to like the Ewoks simply because they have fur.

Well, I do understand your position. But I'm gonna try and make one more effort.

The first time I saw Yoda, I innerly shouted, "What?! That's a Muppet!". Frank Oz, Keshner and a better script made me forget that I was watching fake-looking puppet. Somehow, "magic" took place. When done "right", I even can believe a inflatable beach ball is a life-threatening menace in Dark Star (J. Carpenter).

But I still shout that. None of the cantina monsters looked real to me, even when I was a kid (didn't have that with Yoda btw). Throughout this particular scene I kept saying it was all fake...however, I still enjoyed the heck out of it, cause in the end the idea that a number of different aliens all gathered around in a bar was hilarious and also wonderfully entertaining, enlighting and new to me, and was more crucial and important then focussing on what you didn't like about it. In the end, it was this brilliant idea why I like the cantina scene. Not to see men in suits. For me, that's the same with Ewoks, I actually do like it, and discover I like it more and more with each passing decade (ouch) because of the brilliant idea to put teddy bears in battle mode against a seriously evil empire and then have them win. This sort of thing only happens in comedies but to implement them in a 'serious' flick, great creativity. Other people on purpose use the term 'teddy bears' to show why it's not good. I do so to illustrate why it *is*.

Maybe you haven't noticed it but, unlike the Jawa, the Ewoks act much more cudly and infantile (almost to the extreme), as if their main purpose is to appeal a very, very young audience. In fact, they have exactly the same qualities as the Teletubbies. Not to be enchanted by Teletubbies is part of being an adult. Lucas failed to see that. That's why the Ewoks (or their execution) are the farthest thing from geniality that I've ever witnessed on the silver screen. You simply don't serve Teletubbies with a infantile Teletubbie-like script to a grown-up audience.

But the Jawa (I guess from you it's spelled without the added plural 's') are just as infantile. Watch them wiggle and waggle in a cutesy kind of way towards the shot down R2-D2. Watch them scurry away when Owen and Luke check out the goods. The funny voices are there as well. Beside that, these Jawa are just like the Ewoks, midgets in suits. Neither the Jawa or Ewoks are taken to the extreme. They both behave in relativily natural ways, according to their species. Jar Jar, like I mentioned previously, however *is* taken to the extreme. Here is a character that absolutely doesn't work, and for very good reasons. I would agree with you there, but not here. The same with Teletubbies, that is to the max of the extreme, so not completely fair I think. I know you did it for showing a point, but the problem is the extremity of the Teletubbies. Something the Ewoks simply don't have. They are more cudly, cutesy and playfull than other aliens in the SW universe, of course, but in a natural way. No, the problem is that people were already disappointed and so it was only natural to subconsciously extend that to the Ewoks. If the Jawa would have been put in that movie in stead of the Ewoks, you'd likely get the same reaction then. Nothing to do with Ewoks, but with the story.

Besides, when Han and Luke are surrounded by spears, watch one of the Ewoks, suddenly they are quite volatile, ready to explode in a frenzy, one of them actually gets quite mad and is ready to stab Han. You see a closeup of him. Not so cudly anymore. Quite an angry face there. Suddenly, they are warriors. To me, they are almost like big cats, they can be cudly and cute, but you'd better not be on their meallist, like they were in one of their first scenes. You'll see a different behaviour then. They are carnivours that eat carnivours judging by the meat that was set as a trap. We might be calling our pet cats names like 'Pebbles', really cute, almost like some do by calling Ewoks teddy bears, but we also know they are very real, and can be very aggressive and dangerous to other living things.

If George was indeed a genius, then he would have had no difficulty in seducing his audience with his furry creations. But in all fairness, not one creature in ROTJ appealed to me, not even R2D2 and C3PO. Heck, I did not even like Han Solo and he was one of my favorite characters. Almost everything feels wrong is this movie and the Ewoks are no exception to that. Alex Cremers

I really think that's got more to do with the story, but I agree with you there. It's the execution (pardon my pun) of the whole thing that could have been worked out better. There are great ideas in the movie, some interesting threads but not woven well to become a great tapestry.

BTW, the links you and Neil gave were more about opinions then actually giving good arguments. They were not that strong. However, you could also say that if you simply don't like something, well, a movie doesn't work then does it. So I guess there's even merit in that thought.

Another BTW: Great discussion.

[The Prick vs The DD 0]

My problem with Ewoks:

Furry midgets armed with nothing but sticks, rocks, and pebbles swung from midget arms beat down much larger, military trained, armed, and ARMORED adult human beings. AKA: "An entire legion of my best troops". If the damn suite can't stop a laser blast, and can't stop a pebble or a stick swung by a teddy bear... why the hell are they worn?! I have no problem with the elaborate traps they used to take down the AT-STs and such... those maked sense, and were very believable. The Ewok vs. stormtrooper beat-downs... didn't.

I agree it could have been done better. The battle should have been a bit more cruel and dark, that would have helped, in stead of putting on a comedy show according to some.

One postive thing about the ewoks: They made more women like Star wars. Something I approved of even as a 9 year old in 1983. Got me some brownie points with the dames when i brought my cute ewok baby teddy bear to school. Nippet was mine and my bro (then 7) had Leeni. However, then convincing the babes that the Ewoks weren't the ONLY good thing about Star Wars was quite another thing. Ah... metal bikini Leia was one of the Chrusher's very first crushes.

That could serve as an argument for me. If most women don't have problems with Ewoks, we're back with the Gay Syndrom again. Something that men should change and not the Ewoks.

[The Prick vs The DD 0]

I read the list, and my opinion is: If you base your appreciation of a movie on how many bad elements it has, not howmany good, fine, but don't try to persuade me of that pessimistic POV.

Only he can be easily offended who easily feels offended. Most of the points on that list are minor complaints in my eye, and I just don't waste much thought on them when watching the movie and rather focus on the parts that really stand out.

Ah, you already said it first, and so...well said. LOL

[The Prick vs The DD 0]

I read the list, and my opinion is: If you base your appreciation of a movie on how many bad elements it has, not howmany good, fine, but don't try to persuade me of that pessimistic POV.

Only he can be easily offended who easily feels offended. Most of the points on that list are minor complaints in my eye, and I just don't waste much thought on them when watching the movie and rather focus on the parts that really stand out.

Ah, you already said it first, and so...well said. LOL

(These posts are great for my post count )

[King Mark 3,631]

The Forest Battle is alright.

Here's the scenes in RotJ I can't stand:

Leia finding Wicket and giving him a snack

Luke and Han finding Leia's helmit and not really concerned she might be dead

The whole gang getting caught in the net

Han and Luke preparing to get roasted and C3Po using his "magic"

"Were now part of the tribe"

The "secret entrance" to the shield generator,yeah,right.This whole thing plays out as though thier mission is really irrelevant.

The Ewok stealing the speeder.

STUPID

K.M.Watching Lost and wondering why the lone plane engine sitting on the beach,separated from the wing and with no fuel, still works.

[Henry B 50]

11. Music  

The soundtrack to Wars is a unquestioned classic. Empire's soundtrack gave us the Trilogy's best piece of music: The Imperial March. What does Jedi have to offer? Some playful "Peter and the Wolf"-esque Ewok tunes and Jabba's foam-and-latex band. The song "Lapti Nek" was translated into English for an MTV video, and we learned that "Lapti Nek" actually means "workin' out." That whole Flashdance craze was certainly popular back in '83, but now it's just embarrassing. Jabba's band is a pale imitation of Wars' cantina musicians. The Muppets look fake, and the music they play is truly wretched. (Yet one of the scenes being added to this spring's "updated" Jedi release is another song by the band!)  

Even more insipid, though, is the Ewoks' celebratory "Yub-yub" number at the end (cut from the Special Edition), which sounds suspiciously as if it's sung not by Ewoks, but by humans. The theme to the Alien Nation TV show sounded more authentic.

Uh, does anyone really agree with this one? Yeah, RotJ has a couple of stupid songs, but other than that, it's the usual majestic underscore.

[King Mark 3,631]

The above scenes I mention has the most insipid music in the entire Stat Wars trilogy.

K.M.

[A24 4,331]

Of course, everything "bad" about ROTJ is and will always be only an opinion. The only proof is that Star Wars fans are clearly devided in their opinions about Star Wars. Some like the kiddie kiddie approach, other's regret this new direction and miss the "old" feel. They miss the old TESB magic and myth. It now feels like "More Stories From The Star Wars Universe (For those Who Can't Get Enough Of It)".

The movie is also disrespectful towards Yoda. His screen time feels incredibly rushed. Also, there is a crucial scene with Luke and Leia talking about their mutual "thing" which feels ridiculously hurried. Most of the fine developed main characters in the previous movies were treated as if they were mere "ballast" that the writers desperately needed to get rid of. Han Solo is a walking cardboard, totally uninteresting and redundant. Of course, somewhere in the world there's probably someone who thinks that Han Solo finally blossomed in ROTJ. If you look hard and long enough you'll also find someone who thinks Always is Spielberg's pièce de résistance, his one and only "meisterstuck". Many people prefer Battlefield Earth to Citizen Kane. No argument or opinion will change their mind. If you don't see it, you don't see it. And maybe that's a blessing!

Here's my verdict:

Star Wars - 10/10

The Empire strikes Back - 10/10

Return of the Jedi - 5/10

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Alex Cremers

[The Prick vs The DD 0]

Of course, everything "bad" about ROTJ is and will always be only an opinion. The only proof is that Star Wars fans are clearly devided in their opinions about Star Wars. Some like the kiddie kiddie approach, other's regret this new direction and miss the "old" feel. They miss the old TESB magic and myth. It now feels like "More Stories From The Star Wars Universe (For those Who Can't Get Enough Of It)".

Yeah, but then again a feeling can be wrong. And at least someone should be able to put them to words. I guess I still don't think some of the elements in ROTJ deserve that. Though a lot do. I still feel that if you're going to hang someone, you'd better come up with some very good reasons.

A universe universally means nothing in it is unique. So I liked the change in direction, didn't want to see the same stuff, as long as it follows the laws of it. This is one of the problems the prequels have. At some part it doesn't follow its own laws, in other parts it's the same thing over and over again.

So it looks like neither of us are giving up on their viewpoints.

The movie is also disrespectful towards Yoda. His screen time feels incredibly rushed. Also, there is a crucial scene with Luke and Leia talking about their mutual "thing" which feels ridiculously hurried. Most of the fine developed main characters in the previous movies were treated as if they were mere "ballast" that the writers desperately needed to get rid of. Han Solo is a walking cardboard, totally uninteresting and redundant.

Agreed.

Of course, somewhere in the world there's probably someone who thinks that Han Solo finally blossomed in ROTJ. If you look hard and long enough you'll also find someone who thinks Always is Spielberg's pièce de résistance, his one and only "meisterstuck". Many people prefer Battlefield Earth to Citizen Kane. No argument or opinion will change their mind. If you don't see it, you don't see it. And maybe that's a blessing!

Or maybe not!

I wouldn't agree with anyone holding such positions.

Here's my verdict:

Star Wars - 10/10

The Empire strikes Back - 10/10

Return of the Jedi - 5/10

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Alex Cremers

And mine:

Star Wars - 9/10

The Empire strikes Back - 10/10

Return of the Jedi - 7/10

The Phantom Menace - 3/10

Attack of the Clones - 4.5/10

[A24 4,331]

So it looks like neither of us are giving up on their viewpoints.

I've never been able to change someone's mind directly. It takes years for the ROTJ apostels to gain clear insight into these matters. I've met with some very bright people with strong characters, and even stronger opinions, who saw ROTJ as their favorite Star Wars movie. I'm talking true disciples of the Jedi who believed Star Wars and Empire were inferior in every way. Only smart people are able to readjust their original point of view. As time passed, these same people have woken up and accepted ROTJ for what it really is: A circus. It took a lot of courage for them to admit they were wrong. It's like seeing a Sith converting to the "light side" of the Force.

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Alex Cremers

[The Prick vs The DD 0]

(error, see message below)

[The Prick vs The DD 0]

So it looks like neither of us are giving up on their viewpoints.

I've never been able to change someone's mind directly. It takes years for the ROTJ apostels to gain clear insight into these matters. I've met with some very bright people with strong characters, and even stronger opinions, who saw ROTJ as their favorite Star Wars movie. I'm talking true disciples of the Jedi who believed Star Wars and Empire were inferior in every way. Only smart people are able to readjust their original point of view. As time passed, these same people have woken up and accepted ROTJ for what it really is: A circus. It took a lot of courage for them to admit they were wrong. It's like seeing a Sith converting to the "light side" of the Force.

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Alex Cremers

Hah, true.

I think we're both on the same track with some things, just handling it from different points of view. You might be standing over there looking at an object with me standing over here, but we might both be looking at the same object, the truth I guess. A different point of view I think doesn't automatically mean one is wrong and the other is right. I use an almost literal sense of that phrase.

Here's my point of view. The question is how bright one is if that person is not willing to change their position. To me being intelligent is being able to mentally adapt, change, be flexible with the information that you have not the information that you don't have and ultimately know that you don't know. If you've come to realize that, there's no other way than to change your point of view/arguments/opinions now and then, knowing that what you know now is closer to the truth then you did before the 'change', and knowing you still are not anything near the truth. That makes someone bright in human terms, and 'brighter' overall.

So I have to say that brightness and strong characters with firm opinions do not mix. They stagnate for their arrogance let them believe they've discovered the or *their* truth even though mankind is not smart enough to do so.

However, stepping away from one position onto another can also be quite a hassle. In 95% of the times, people go from plus to minus in zero seconds. Once they've discovered that arguments for a, let's stick with, movie are outweighed by arguments against, suddenly they completely shift to the far other side of the spectrum. In many cases what they should have done is balance it out to get closer to what it really is. One movie may not work in every single way, that does not make it complete trash.

Getting back to ROTJ, even though this movie might be severely flawed at some of the more important elements, if there are still other important elements left intact then it makes for a flawed movie, but not necessarily for a complete trashy one. If you compare ROTJ for instance with other action/scifi movies from the past two decades, ROTJ comes out better than most. The ones I've seen (partially) anyway. Like I already told you, I don't think ROTJ is a masterpiece especially compared to the previous two, but it does have its merits perhaps mainly by its philosophical ideas. The idea that darkness has shortterm advantages, but not longterm ones. The idea that simplicity can overcome complexity. The idea that hatred makes you stronger, but kindness makes you strong. The idea that a lot is not always better than a little. The idea that there's only strength in numbers when it has bonds (of friendship). Whether this is all true or not is not even important, but that it raises such questions and ideas to me is. However, THAT could very well be a personal thing to me, but if it's so then at least it does have its strong points.

It's flawed for sure, the dialogues are quite bare and dull, some of the interactions and character developments are as well. The story is so-so, the repeated use of Tatooine and the Death Star, an unconvincing Jedi Knight, some plot points being left unexplained. You can go on and on and on.

But it could be that it is this philosophical basis, the fascinating ideas, that is still holding this movie together, I don't know, but for me right now it still does so nonetheless. Then there still is Solo and Darth Vader, no longer fantastic, but still great character creations. And the entire idea of Star Wars, with a new alien in every corner you can spot, that's still in there though not a new idea anymore of course. A lot of what we like is borrowed from the first movie, but it's there. At least this movie does much more so than most action movies. That could all change of course. This is why I still give it a 7 out of 10, everything about moviemaking is not in there which would have normally resulted in perhaps a 4 or 5 out of 10 for me. For the sake of entertainment. It is some of its hidden agenda's, but that could admittingly be my own imagination, that earns extra points. Though I'd have to say that even unintentional philosophical ideas, could have also be sprung from subconscience moral backgrounds.

Sorry for this very long reply. Hah, only intended to give a short answer but once I start talking like that, I seem to go on and on and on.

I promise, I will no longer do that within this conversation.

[A24 4,331]

If you compare ROTJ for instance with other action/scifi movies from the past two decades, ROTJ comes out better than most.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. I certainly have seen better pure sci-fi though.

It's flawed for sure, the dialogues are quite bare and dull, some of the interactions and character developments are as well. The story is so-so, the repeated use of Tatooine and the Death Star, an unconvincing Jedi Knight, some plot points being left unexplained. You can go on and on and on.

I'm glad that you can see its flaws. In all honesty, I love the Luke-Vader-Emperor confrontation scenes. If only the whole movie could grab my attention the way the "confrontation" did. It could've been the best part of the trilogy.

And the entire idea of Star Wars, with a new alien in every corner you can spot, that's still in there though not a new idea anymore of course. A lot of what we like is borrowed from the first movie, but it's there. At least this movie does much more so than most action movies.

In the monster department, I think ROTJ overdid it a little. It's why a sometimes refer to it as being a "circus".

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Alex Cremers

[King Mark 3,631]

The whole Han/ Leia /Endor/Deactivate the sheild generator subplot plays out as a joke or a comedy,as it's something in the sidelines that's supposed to be funny.Kind of sucks out any tension in the movie.That's what sinks the movie IMO.

K.M.

[Henry B 50]

Plus...the Battle of Endor kind of fizzles off. This is exemplified by the scene where Leia is shot by a stormtrooper; the battlefield area is completely deserted.