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*** Urgent Star Wars DVD News ***


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Why is this an urgent announcement?

Lucas butchered Williams score...geez what a surprise.

With this, and your poll I think you are just putting oil on an already to long burning fire.

Star Wars is dead, killed by it's father.

It's time for you to move on and embrace the genius of the LOTR trilogy.

As much as this pisses me off I have to agree with Steef here. Ok the DVD's are bad....er....... :thumbup:

Justin -Wondering what exactly Neil was expecting....

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To back up my claim that this is an incompetent mix I have made this file. It highlights the incredible difference in sound quality on the dialogue track. Again,you'll need to right click and save that file. The first clip is from the original mix and the second part is from the new 2004 re-mix. The quality change is unacceptable and should have never been released like this. It's jarring and distracting. And it happens throughout the entire film!

I may hate the new re-mix to Superman - The Movie but at least it's consistent and competent. It doesn't have the drastic swings in quality that this track does. This sounds like a scratch track and not a completed work. We should all be thankful that Paramount handled the Indiana Jones re-mix last year. If Lucasfilm had done it, I don't know what we would have wound up with.

Neil

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Neil, get you laserdisc player, play your Star Wars laserdisc and soothe a little please.

Forget (you dont need to forgive) the DVDs, It will help you.

I'm saying this as a friend, not as SW SE nerd.

So you find all of this acceptable? Interesting.

Neil

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When the X-Wing fighters do their first dive towards the Death Star and the music builds up to a crescendo (1:11 into "The Battle of Yavin" on the RCA CDs) the music inexplicably is dialled down to silence during the grand charge.  After a few moments it's brought back up a little, but the damage has been done and the scene and score continue to play out, only not as powerfully as they should.

This pivotal action moment has been dramatically destroyed and is certainly cause for a recall.  The true unfortunate part about this is that it is merely the icing on the cake for a set that is riddled with amateurish, offensive, disturbing and incompetent sound work through out the entire picture.

Neil

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

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This I would not have belived if I hadn't heard it with my own ears!

I'm certainly not what would be considered a purist but this is a little much.

I mean I'm not against the changes to the films when they enhance it not cut out something that has been there for more then 25 years!!! Something this drastic is just horrid. That moment was always one of my favorite moments in the entire movie and now CRAP!!

Brian99_1 - who will have to deal with his VHS versions and rember that moment with the cd's

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Good grief!

Having heard that file now, I concur with Neil about what has happened. It is as if some of the music was sacrificed at the expense at showing off the new 5.1 mix. Sure, the sound effects and dialogue are much crisper now -- but at what cost? I would like to think there was a mistake in the mixing process somewhere (this kind of thing has happened before). But it seems like wishful thinking right now.

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The soundclips play fine on Realplayer for me.

As to the clips themselves... This reminds me of when I first saw the Hayden head switch. Come on George, if you're going to insist on changing everything, at least do a competent job. The way the quality suddenly drops in that second clip is awful, did they have a chimp supervising the remix?

I don't understand the change in the first clip at all... Why anyone would want to dial out such an effective part of the score is beyond me.

- Danielle

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Lucas wants to "fix" his visions. If every single one of his fans have a problem with it, it's his vision, he's the creator, and he made the rules. Let's all make our own "preferred" versions of Star Wars, and I'd dare say that there probably would't be two alike. My version would be edited TO the music, and deleted music put back in... and yet half of the Star Wars fans in the world would rather hear sound effects or even rock music. That's just the way it is, and a democracy would likely have Williams score removed in favor of Britney Spears. Who cares?! In the end, theer is no "right" and "wrong" standard with art, art is relative, and tampering with a movie is a right reserved for the creator. His laws, his univese, his plan, his right.

Look, if you were raising your children, and everybody started stepping in and saying you were doing a bad job and you should do this and not do this, you'd probably be offended. Yet, that's far more serious than a friggen' movie. At least some would have a point, especially if the kid grew up bad. Yet, you people are taking it more serious than that. Why?

I'm not thrilled about some of those changes, yet others don't bother me at all. Some sound completely acceptable, others seem lousy. Obviously, mixing out Williams music is low, but what can we do? We already own the CDs, the original versions, we know that he's done this before (every movie ever made has edits, I gave up caring all that much a while ago). We all own the originals on VHS or LD and have bootlegs of the original versions (or are seeking them*) so in the end... who really cares? Why does it matter? Is Star Wars your religion? Your parents? Is God being killed or something? Or your mom or dad being forever altered? I don't get the anger and hatred... it makes no sense to me. It even baffles me and almost makes me welcome the changes... the anti-bandwagon part of me. LOL

Anyways... i'm still getting the set, and I want the old versions to*. Gasp! I can enjoy all three or four versions!? LOL It's more to watch to me.

-Chris

PS: *= Hello? Someone with some high quality DVD-Rs from the original and 1997 laserdiscs please contact me, I want both versions to accompany my new DVD set when it's released. Trade or pay you for the cost... don't matter to me... contact me! :thumbup:

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I agree with KM. I probably wouldn't have noticed it either if it wasn't pointed out here, and I love and know the score by heart (since I was a kid), and love Star Wars too.

Now, I may have noticed it, but shrugged my shoulders and think to myself that it STILL isn't as bad as what happened to Williams score on the prequels, especially AotC. I recently have begun to like that score more and more and the music editing throughout that movie is utterly atrocious. Like someone else said... it seems as if it was done by a chimp. There is no edit on the Classic Trilogy DVDs that comes close to the first and only edit of AotC (TPM as well, but lesser so). Any one of us on this website would have done a better job for FREE! If they paid someone to do that, it's a bad, bad joke.

In fact, most people will cheer at the louder SFX. In all the world, the only people who would notice or care will be likely only be found on this website (or a handful of other film score websites). it may be a shame, but in the overall picture, it doesn't matter much. I just wonder if Lucas is ashamed that he acts like a corrupt corporation like he says in that documentary? Hard to tell, but he's at least aware of it by his own words.

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hmm... I listened to that comparison file you made, Neil.... for some reason I feel it's better then the original :-/ What bothers me about the original is that the music is too loud and it clashes a lot with all that laser fire going on... They drowned it maybe a bit TOO much for this edition, but I still believe it's better... feel free to bash me now :P

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Neil, get you laserdisc player, play your Star Wars laserdisc and soothe a little please.

Forget (you dont need to forgive) the DVDs, It will help you.

I'm saying this as a friend, not as SW SE nerd.

So you find all of this acceptable? Interesting.

Neil

See why you need to relax? You didnt understand a shit of what i meant.

Not caring about the star wars saga anymore is not acceptiong the changes - you do not like and dont have to see those movies anymore or pay for them. You just stick with your previous versions. And as i said, i was not speaking about forgiving Lucas, you can be angry with him forever.

Luke, who was talking about this with his brother and though some enhacements have been made over the SEs, the sound and music issues are invelievable awful. If the sound is never corrected in subsequent re-releases, i'm nowadays not sure if i would like to buy the set.

In the dolby surround 2.0 track happens the same?

Anyway, is there a possibility of the dialogue to be impossible to restore at some places? If that was the case i thik they should have kept the old mix :?

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I still couldn't open those files. I tried WMP (I have 9, and yet when I clicked on the file, it opened a previous version of WMP that I didn't even think that WinXP had in it, LOL), RealOne, iTunes, and Quicktime (both of which I recently updated and despise because they are bulky RAM-hogs on my machine [when constantly working on artwork, I don't have a ton of extra memory for music, hence WMP always works best for me]). Yet... after all of this... None work. WTF?! :P

Bah... I'll hear it next week on the DVDs themselves. And these apparent problems don't bother me much. Anythings better than full-screen factory VHS's of the original versions and the Special Editions, and widescreen versions taped off TV, which are the only versions that I have now. Sheesh, guys... can the sound quality be bad than a 10 year old VHS tape that has ben watched more than a few times? Even when I get DVD-Rs of the laserdisc editions, I'll still want this DVD set, the picture quality on the commercials alone beats the living crap out of my VHS tapes. :P

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I was able to finally play them on Quicktime, althoug it took some prefereces fiddling. Thanks for putting them up, Neil.

Yes, the meddling with the music is very shameful, but, I really don't have a great problem with the voice differences. In fact, I probably would nopt have noticed if not for this thread. it isn't something that bothers me at all. The music edit bothers me, but if that'sthe only time that music was dialled out, then I can't complain without feling like a little kid who lost an M&M when there's more in the bag. bowdown Sure, it's bad, but hey, in the overall picture, only us Williams fans will notice or care. In fact, the overall sound improvement makes me look foward to the DVD set even more.

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I've pointed out missing music. I've pointed out wildly inconsistent dialogue passages. What about sound effects? Here is a clip where a sound effect is totally missing! Just before Threepios line, "I would much rather have gone with Master Luke than stay here with you." there should be some sort of alien sound effect. It almost sounds like an early version of E.T. purring. I don't know where this effect went to, but it was heard even in the 1997 mix. As I said in my initial post, this smacks of incompetence.

Again, I have the original mix first then five seconds of silence and then the 2004 re-mix.

Neil

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OK, Neil, you thoroughly made your case. You win. bowdown

I guess restoring all the elements meant that they had to use various sources. The 35mm and 70mm versions of the original versions had different mixes or different takes of the looped dialogue. And some of that mix-and-match found its way into the SE editions. And perhaps they did that once again, even incorporating new stuff when the old was unuseable. (I'm just guessing on the reasoning behind all this and might be off.)

Sound changes or the lack of the original mix has not stopped me getting a lot of my all-time favorite films, whether it's Jaws, Superman, or The Godfather series. Sure, it's jarring to hear the new mix and no longer being able to hear a lot of the "signature" elements that I remember like the back of my hand. Even the restored Vertigo was criticized for having new foley effects and the old ones tossed away. But I always thought the use was subtle enough not to be an issue, and that they went to the trouble of finding period equipment so it would sound authentic.

As a Star Wars fan, though, I still have to support the franchise that changed my life 27 years ago, which is why I am still picking up the new set, regardless of the little and not-so-little changes made to the trilogy. But I have also decided to have the best of both worlds. I am going to take the plunge and get ahold of these originals on DVD, even if it is a .... you know, unofficial release.

May the Force be with all of us!

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I've pointed out missing music. I've pointed out wildly inconsistent dialogue passages. What about sound effects? Here is a clip where a sound effect is totally missing! Just before Threepios line, "I would much rather have gone with Master Luke than stay here with you." there should be some sort of alien sound effect. It almost sounds like an early version of E.T. purring. I don't know where this effect went to, but it was heard even in the 1997 mix.  

I always thought that is the sound effect for the droid detector on the wall as they enter. This alerts the bartender to say "We don't serve their kind here." The droid detector is the silver box on the wall with the blue light in the shape of a cross (if I remember correctly).

If turning down the music over the death star wasn't bad enough.

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Here is a clip where a sound effect is totally missing!  Just before Threepios line, "I would much rather have gone with Master Luke than stay here with you." there should be some sort of alien sound effect.  It almost sounds like an early version of E.T. purring.  I don't know where this effect went to, but it was heard even in the 1997 mix.  As I said in my initial post, this smacks of incompetence.

Neil

Uh,now I bet your the only one in the entire world who noticed that one.

K.M.

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Here is a clip where a sound effect is totally missing!  Just before Threepios line, "I would much rather have gone with Master Luke than stay here with you." there should be some sort of alien sound effect.  It almost sounds like an early version of E.T. purring.  I don't know where this effect went to, but it was heard even in the 1997 mix.  As I said in my initial post, this smacks of incompetence.

Neil

Uh,now I bet your the only one in the entire world who noticed that one.

K.M.

Maybe. Even the new uncredited sound mixers didn't catch it. What a pity.

Neil

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See, this is why I said I approve of Williams going back and rescoring all these sections that were no doubt going to get completely ballsed up. But most of you were like, nooooooo noooooooo, Williams shouldn't touch them. And now you get this. I for one am not listening to all the changes Neil because I'm hoping not to notice them when I watch the films :music: Again, it's better for Williams to go and rescore scenes than have them edited. It always will be.

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I remember that droid thing that you are talking about. KarmBee is right... it's the droid detector on the wall and it blinks and makes a blurping sound when Threepio walks by it, then the bartdender kicks them out. If that's missing, I agree... that's that's just plain incompetence, and like I said... most of us fans would do a better job for free.

Neil, what audio track are you listening to? 5.1 Mix? A 2.0 mix? Another one? There could be differences with each. THX reference? I thought you hated Lucas? :) j/k

Back to the bartender kicking droids out thing. OK, I've always waned to know this because it happens in ANH and AOTC. What is the problem with a droid getting food for his owner? Do they take too much? Do they not pay? Do they take too much space in the establishment? Did a droid kill bartenders leading to a mass universal strike against serving droids? It simply makes very little sense.

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Another music glitch. One that is not so easy to demonstrate on-line, but it's very easy to hear with the 5.1 mix. A proper stereo music recording puts the main violins on the left hand side since that's where they are when you are facing the orchestra. Listen to the soundtrack album for this film or any classical recording. This new mix still retains the proper perspective for the front channels. The music mixed into the surround channels however is completely reversed. The violins come out of the right surround channel while also coming out of the left front channel and throw the music soundstage completely off. This is not a wiring error on my part, since all of the effects are properly placed and all test tones are working properly.

Did I say this was an incompetent mix somewhere?

Neil

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- Marc, who thinks this is important news for those considering buying this DVD.

That's right. I was considering to buy it after all, since it ís the only release, but this dreadful sound mix has made me reconsider. Now I would only accept it as a gift.

:angry:

Seriously, I'm with Neil all the way. That drowned fanfare (for one thing) is inexcusable. It wouldn't surprise me if Burtt did the mix.

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I'm assuming this is the same "neil" that's been driving hometheaterforum nuts about this issue. The music is still there...it's just VERY quiet. And yes, I've had my set for a week and a half at this point. I know what I'm talking about.

*Cue neil to give us the laundry list of what he watched and listened to the set on*

Does it suck? Yes. But whining and complaining will do NOTHING. This is what you're getting, like it or not. If you want the movies, buy it. If not, get a laserdisc player. Bitching will get you nowhere.

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I'm assuming this is the same "neil" that's been driving hometheaterforum nuts about this issue.

Yes.

The music is still there...it's just VERY quiet.  And yes, I've had my set for a week and a half at this point.  I know what I'm talking about.

This argument is weak as hell. If the music is not audible when you are watching the movie in a normal way, that means pretty much that it's gone. Don't give us this bullshit about it still being there. It might be there, but turning it down to an almost inaudible volume means it has been basically removed from the mix, and only dialed down because it was probably an easier way to do it than to re-edit the score track in the soundmix.

Does it suck?  Yes.  But whining and complaining will do NOTHING.  This is what you're getting, like it or not.  If you want the movies, buy it.  If not, get a laserdisc player.  Bitching will get you nowhere.

This is very true. But the fact remains, many people think Lucas condemning the old versions of the movies an insanely insipid thing to do. The films are not readily available in their old format, and the fact that we don't get it with such pristine presentation (visually) as on these DVDs is almost insulting.

- Marc, wondering if he should even bother. ;)

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I'm assuming this is the same "neil" that's been driving hometheaterforum nuts about this issue.

Some detective. I thought the HTF was devoted to quality presentations on DVD, but all the membership could do there is challenge me on every issue. This is a fucked up DVD and everyone is willing to excuse it because "It's Star Wars".

And why do people keep putting my actual name in quotes?

The music is still there...it's just VERY quiet.

Very quiet is an interesting way to say inaudible. I'll admit it's in the surrounds and can be heard with just them playing, but who watches a movie that way? When you are playing the film over a properly calibrated set-up with all of the channels engaged, it's not there. It cannot be heard.

And yes, I've had my set for a week and a half at this point.  I know what I'm talking about.

So you must also realize that the music mixed into the surround channels is reversed since you know what you're talking about, right?

*Cue neil to give us the laundry list of what he watched and listened to the set on*

I played an actual DVD and not a download. I don't want to list my source since I'm not about to burn a relationship. Need proof that I have the disc? The Yavin menu screen plays the alternate unused "Binay Sunset" cue.

I've answered this question several times. At my father's I used a Sampo DVD player and Yamaha RX-V9 THX Ultra certified receiver. That theater is set up for 9.1 sound. Three across the front, two surround channels, two EX channels and two front effects channels. All of it was precisely calibrated by the receiver and independently verified by me using a test disc and a sound level meter. I could not hear the music in that scene.

I then played it at my home using my Pioneer DVD player, Harmon/Kardon Dolby Digital decoder and NAD, NHT and Kenwood amplification. It's an all Advent speaker system using Prodigy Towers up front, Baby II's in the back and an Audio Cinema center channel as well as a 10" powered sub. Again, I calibrated everything with the sound level meter and the AVIA test disc. It was here that I discovered the music in the surround channels was reversed.

Does it suck?  Yes.

If you are willing to accept crap, go on right ahead. I prefer to have a music mix properly done and would not settle for this.

But whining and complaining will do NOTHING.  This is what you're getting, like it or not.

I've never once complained about content. I'm complaining about the complete incompetence in mixing the music. Having the music correct in the surround channels should not be a foreign concept to the mixers on this DVD. It's a mistake, plain and simple, and it should be brought to everyones attention who has paid good money to try and enjoy a supposedly year long restoration!

If you want the movies, buy it.  If not, get a laserdisc player.  Bitching will get you nowhere.

If you're willing to tolerate a stupid mistake that lasts the entire film and makes the music sound dreadful, go right ahead.

Neil

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