John Crichton 4 Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 I listened to ST II for the first time in a long time recently, and I had forgotten just how good this score is. I'm no Horner fan by any means, but this just blew me away like I was hearing it for the first time again. Most cues have the same few themes repeated many times, and yet it never gets old or repetative. No small accomplishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewdog1 50 Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 What ever happened to this Horner? If he kept this up, we would probably be talking about the top three, JW, JG, JH. But Horner dropped out of the big three around Braveheart/Titanic.It's sad because he has so much potential, but just got lazy. Here is a guy that is going solely on reputation alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielle 0 Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Well, I know I'm in the minority here, but for me the big three still are Williams, Goldsmith and Horner. Sure, people are correct to complain about the self-quotations (I swear, Horner's Troy would have been regarded much better if he'd ditched the danger motif just this once), but there is still a lot of talent there (I'm thinking The Mask of Zorro and The Missing here, both great scores IMO). Something needs to come along and knock that autopilot switch to "off" every once in a while, he still is capable of producing great results. I just wish it would happen more often.As for Star Trek 2, I agree. It's not one I listen to very often, but when I do it's always a rediscovery of how great it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eplicon 23 Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 Ah, youth.When Horner started out, he was fresh and had good ideas! I rate his Brainstorm to be one of his finest works. Horner can be a guilty pleasure at times even when he liberally borrows from others (i.e., himself) time and time again. The last work of his that I find myself listening to quite a bit is The Perfect Storm. The music works so well in many of the scenes. (The DVD featurette has a nice bit from the scoring sessions, too.) That working-class Americana feeling he brings to the score and film gives you a better appreciation of the real men who go and risk their lives everyday so we can have fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 5,520 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Khan is a very fine score, but I still say the orchestrations are too thin, which is why I don't enjoy it as much as I used to, having played it often. Also, it seems more original than it really is, as I found out when I got Goldsmith's Night Crossing.Marian - who still has to get the Search for Spock CD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted September 15, 2004 Author Share Posted September 15, 2004 And from the Horner being modern day Horner category, I remember watching a more recent film that he scored and I could have sworn I heard Khan's theme. I wish I could remember which movie it was...John- who has also yet to get Search for Spock on CD, but considering how much is rehash from TWOK, is there really a point? And the Klingon theme is a joke compared to Goldsmith's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eplicon 23 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 "Stealing the Enterprise" is a cool track. Shades of Prokofiev all over! STIII is a bit more of a developed and melodic score than its predecessor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielle 0 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 I could have sworn I heard Khan's theme. I wish I could remember which movie it was... Could be any number of his scores. The danger motif (if that's what you're referring to - It's basically the first four notes of Khan's theme) has popped up in Willow, The Mask of Zorro, The Perfect Storm, Enemy at the Gates, Troy and Project X to name but a few."Stealing the Enterprise" is a great cue from Star Trek 3, it's worth getting the album just for that... Although parts of it are very reminiscent of "The Widow's Web" from Krull... But that isn't necessarily a bad thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendal_Ozzel 32 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 I have Search for Spock but not Wrath of Khan. I agree, "Stealing the Enterprise" is a really great cue. And hey, how 'bout that last track?!? It's a doozey!Kendal Ozzel - who can never remember if "Khan" is spelled with an "ha" or and "ah", so he looked it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted September 15, 2004 Author Share Posted September 15, 2004 Yeah, I do remember the Stealing the Enterprise cue from watching the film and really liking it. I slightly recend my rehash comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 I love both of Horner's Trek scores. Yes, they both have there fair share of Prokofiev rips as well as sounding like other Horner scores, but there is an energy to these scores, as if Horner was really enjoying his work. That quality has been lacking from his scores for many years now. I really lost interest in his music with Patriot Games.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielle 0 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 I really lost interest in his music with Patriot Games.Patriot Games was an awful score, perhaps only beaten by Unlawful Entry, released in the same year. I'll say it again though, listen to The Mask of Zorro and tell me you can't hear that same energy and quality that he had earlier in his career. He's still got the talent, he just requires a swift kick up the butt every now and then to remind him to use it. Pity really, so much wasted potential. Incidentally, I once heard a rumour that Horner was offered Lord of the Rings, but turned it down to work on smaller films like Iris. Anyone else hear this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 5,520 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 The danger motif (if that's what you're referring to - It's basically the first four notes of Khan's theme) has popped up in Willow, The Mask of Zorro, The Perfect Storm, Enemy at the Gates, Troy and Project X to name but a few.It hasn't *popped up* in Troy, it's *all over* Troy. I'm tempted to say it *is* Troy.Marian - LOL Arena Concerto (Ennio Morricone) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarmBee 0 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Stealing the enterprise is a great track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoby12 0 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 James Horner is the most hated composer in the business by other people in the business. Stories go on and on....and he stole his braveheart theme from some unknown American Folk Song which I have forgotten the name to. But yes ST2 rocks - i just bought it a little while back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted September 15, 2004 Author Share Posted September 15, 2004 Incidentally, I once heard a rumour that Horner was offered Lord of the Rings, but turned it down to work on smaller films like Iris. Anyone else hear this one?Supposedly (I don't know if this is pure rumor or has some confirmation) he was offered Harry Potter when it was first started and turned it down. Thank God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Yeah, no kidding. I'm a fan of numerous Horner scores, but the thought of him doing HP gives me shivers!Ray Barnsbyry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 9 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Incidentally, I once heard a rumour that Horner was offered Lord of the Rings, but turned it down to work on smaller films like Iris. Anyone else hear this one?Supposedly (I don't know if this is pure rumor or has some confirmation) he was offered Harry Potter when it was first started and turned it down. Thank God. Both of these rumours were started by Horner, he specificaly said he turned down these movies to do smaller films like A Beautiful Mind and Iris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielle 0 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 It hasn't *popped up* in Troy, it's *all over* Troy. I'm tempted to say it *is* Troy.That's what bugs me so much about his recent work... I don't so much mind him using the danger motif a little here and there, in the past it was used almost like a calling card. But Troy and Enemy at the Gates were just full of that four-note motif repeated over... and over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 5,520 Posted September 15, 2004 Share Posted September 15, 2004 Yeah. I've been criticising Horner a lot, but the danger motif never bothered me. Until Troy that is.Marian - who'd rather listen to the original Prokofiev and RVW pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymenard 35 Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 but there is still a lot of talent there (I'm thinking The Mask of Zorro  Mask of Zorro < El Cid...and a blattant copy of it.imho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melange 446 Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Patriot Games was an awful scorePersonally, i think it worked very well within the movie. It may not stand up so well as a stand alone Cd. I have it at home, and listen to it occasionally. I thought the scene of the assasination attempt on his wife and daughter on the freeway, had a great score to it. The other one i love, is the Electronic Battlefield where Ryan watches the Special Forces attack on the Desert terrorist camp. The music admittedly borrows highly from Shostakovich's 5th Symphony in that cue. But it still worked very well (imo). It has a slightly plastic feel to the score. But i still think it works well within the movie itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKenLittle 6 Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Give me 80's Horner any day of the week and twice on Sundays. I am with Neil on this one, I lost interest around Patriot Games. He is kind of hit and miss for me now. There are moments of greatness in Titanic, Braveheart is highly over-rated in my opinion. Mask of Zorro is ...ehhI agree that Brainstorm is Horner's greatest opus, thus far. It is the perfect marriage of cacphony and melody, Michael's gift to Karen is sublime and glorious... That is what pisses me off so much... It's not like this guy has no skills... He is just plain lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldsmithfan 3 Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Yeah. I've been criticising Horner a lot, but the danger motif never bothered me. Until Troy that is.Marian - who'd rather listen to the original Prokofiev and RVW pieces. I used to like the danger motif. A few million uses ago. Anyway, I've been looking into Prokofiev (I was under the possibly mistaken impression that it's spelled 'Prokiev') lately lately and I'm curious as to what material of his Horner has ripped off. Are there any particular pieces or is it just the basic style? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 5,520 Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 The Battle on the Ice from Alexander Nevsky. It appears in the Mutara Nebula battle and most recently in Troy, when the Greek approach the city (the sequence is visually similar to that part from Nevsky as well).Marian - still calling Sneakers Horner's best score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKenLittle 6 Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 - still calling Sneakers Horner's best score.Sneakers is definately top three... But I still vote for Brainstorm.BKL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielle 0 Posted September 16, 2004 Share Posted September 16, 2004 Listen to Prokofiev's "Cantana For The 20th Anniversary Of The October Revolution" (Specifically the second movement "The Philosophers" I believe), and compare it to Horner's Main and End Titles for Red Heat... Incredibly similar, right down to the chorus chanting "Philosophy" in the background. - still calling Sneakers Horner's best score.I never was able to get a taste for that one. I'll have to give it another listen one of these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 5,520 Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Watch the movie! Marian - "Tahiti is not in Europe" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Longbottom 0 Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I really lost interest in his music with Patriot Games.Patriot Games was an awful score, perhaps only beaten by Unlawful Entry, released in the same year. I'll say it again though, listen to The Mask of Zorro and tell me you can't hear that same energy and quality that he had earlier in his career. Oh Neil, but be warned........!!!I don't share this positivism over The Mask of Zorro. The only interesting "bit" of the whole long score is the first 2 or three minutes of the opening trac; I'm talking about the Spanish guitar gambol that really works and is had been pretty refreshing to hear from Horner.The 99% of the score, though, is a messed rehash of Titanic and Aliens above all else, really nothing original or even re-hashed in a fresh new way like he would later do much better with, say, "The Missing".The soundtrack to The Mask of Zorro, though, has picked largely positive reviews across many soundtrack sites but I just don't hear why. Both Beautiful Mind and The Perfect Storm (even if only for its Romeo and Juliet's theme cool adaptation for 7th track) are better written despite sounding fairly familiar, but James Horner can write similar stuff in much more interesting way than that which sinks The Mask of Zorro into the bottom half of his 90's output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Oh don't worry. I didn't like the film or the score in the film.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,759 Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 you know guys, instead of saying Horner ripped off so and so, why don't you just enjoy the score for what it is. You know many of us have never heard of these sources he supposedly ripped the score from, and really don't care to. I mean honestly, you guys start regurgitating this crap over and over, about Horner, but the same is said about Williams, and Goldsmith, and none of it is likely to be true.Inspired by, influenced by, is alot different than going to the source material and just stealing it, but some of you cannot make that kind of leap of faith.Star Trek II, the Wrath of Khan is a fine score, no matter what anyone say, just take a listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Longbottom 0 Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Oh no I don't mind "ripping" or borrowing from one the same self. I even don't know who invented that word and made association of it with film music. Like I mentioned the connection between The Mask of Zorro and Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet theme, Horner quotes it there slightly altered to give it "almost" imperial-marchlike feel, and that's a cool moment of the score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 480 Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I've said this before, and I'll say it again.A lot of Horner's work sounds alike - especially his later works. When I listen to a score like The Perfect Storm I can hear things he did in Braveheart, Jumanji, and Titanic, and probably some other stuff.But darnit, I just like the man's style! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldsmithfan 3 Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 The Battle on the Ice from Alexander Nevsky. It appears in the Mutara Nebula battle and most recently in Troy, when the Greek approach the city (the sequence is visually similar to that part from Nevsky as well).Marian - still calling Sneakers Horner's best score.Battle on the Ice is the only cue I've heard any large amount of by Prokofiev. In fact, that was the first piece by him that I heard. It was in a trailer on the DVD of Conan the Barbarian and I thought, Whoa! What is that?!? Ah, memories . . . Anyway, I've been lucky enough to have gotten a copy of Sneakers and it is very good. Definitely up there. I've not heard too much Horner though. I like Aliens a lot, but I know that there was a lot of borrowing going on there. I didn't realize it until I saw part of 2001 on TV and heard what Horner used as Ripley and Newt's theme in the background. Not to mention his 'borrowing' of the time motif from Goldsmith's score. They have Brainstorm at the Barnes & Noble closest to me. Is it worth getting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eplicon 23 Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 Brainstorm is vintage Horner and has many nice moments (i.e., "Michael's Gift to Karen"). It's only a 30-minute album, however. It wasn't an issue of re-use fees since this was actually a re-recording with the LSO. If you like Sneakers, it's along the same lines, but a little more original since he used these ideas here first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QMM 4 Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 I damn well enjoyed Mask of Zorro and it's score Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeejaHalycon 0 Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 ALL of this talk about Horner and NO mention of The Rocketeer? SHAME on everyone of you! And you call yourselves film score fans... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielle 0 Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 Rocketeer is one of my all-time favourite scores, and I think the film is pretty underrated too.It's right up there with Krull and Willow as one of Horner's great enthusiastic moments.My top ten:1 - Krull 2 - Glory 3 - Rocketeer 4 - Willow 5 - Legends of the Fall 6 - The Land Before Time 7 - Star Trek 2 8 - Brainstorm 9 - Aliens 10 - Apollo 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 5,520 Posted September 18, 2004 Share Posted September 18, 2004 I like Aliens a lot, but I know that there was a lot of borrowing going on there.I like it as well, and I don't mind the Khatchaturian that much, or the Klingon theme and the Goldsmith bit, for that matter. What always bothered me when watching the movie was the Khan climax. And Horner copying Williams' copy of Holst for the queen airshaft sequence is also a bit too much, especially since he goes over the top with it.But still a very fine score mostly. They have Brainstorm at the Barnes & Noble closest to me. Is it worth getting?Certainly a good score. From what I've read (I never pay enough attention when listening to it, I'm afraid), it even contains some 12-tone parts.Marian - who should listen to it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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