AOTC discovery- A new theme

[John Crichton 4]

Yup, a new theme in AOTC that no one else seems to have noticed. Until now. It is a new Anakin's Theme.

The reasons that it's gone unnoticed is because: a. It's one of those ultra-modern Williams themes that changes a little every time it's played, and b. it's main (possibly only) statements are on unreleased music. I've put together a sound clip, 40 seconds long, of DVD extracts (therefore poor quality) of the four main statements of the theme that I've found.

Anakin's Theme- Episode II (I've got this hosted on Geocities. They have strict bandwidth limits so if you have trouble downloading this try again in a little bit. Sorry.)

The clips come from the following four scenes:

1. Palpatine telling Anakin that he's the most powerful Jedi he's ever met.

2. Anakin says that sometimes "we must do what's requested of us" and Padme tells him that he's grown up.

3. Shmi's Funeral. Everyone should recognize this. This was the piece that got me thinking that there was something new thematic going on here.

4. Anakin obeys Mace Windu's order to stay on Tatooine while the Jedi go to rescue Obi-Wan.

It's very unclear if there are any statements of this new theme on the CD. I've found several parts that might be hints or parts of this new theme, but nothing definite. The one that strikes me the most is from Departing Coruscant, Track 5 from 1:14-1:20.

And many thanks to Cerrabore for hearing my pitch and agreeing with my conclusion (and telling me I'm not nuts ).

[Justin 2]

It can't be that good if we're just noticing it now.

Justin - Cynical.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Yeah I agree, i prefer my themes a bit more out into the open.

It's no use for film music to have themes that have to be decyphered.

[Henry B 49]

I mentioned to John in our conversations that this theme is distinguished by the French horn. The instrumentation has to remain similar throughout because of the looseness of the theme.

[Lurker 5]

The reasons that it's gone unnoticed is because: a. It's one of those ultra-modern Williams themes that changes a little every time it's played, and b. it's main (possibly only) statements are on unreleased music.

c. no one likes the movie enough to watch it again

d. nothing is memorable about the movie

e. many people drive spikes into their ears to block out the inane dialogue, thus cutting out the music

f. Ben Burtt covered it with effects

g. it can only be heard with all the main channels shut off and with your ear pressed up to a surround channel

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

[Falstaft 1,708]

I for one find your post very interesting, JC.

I noticed that theme too, and like it very much, though I'd call it more of a "memory of Mom" theme, based on it's two most prominent renditions.

The trademark interval of the ascending minor 6th is quite beautiful and reflects the Love Theme, which begins with the same figure. In its two main occurences (JC's numbers 2 & 3), it is heard very prominently, not buried in the background at all. If you think this theme is inconsiquential just for its spare use, remember Luke & Leia...

There are actually a lot of little things going on in the AOTC score that no one has really taken the time to tease out because they hate the movie so goddamn much. Listen to 5:23 of the Tusken Camp track to hear a dark snippet of Shmi's theme in the trumpet/clarinets as it is heard over the same churning figures that form the basis of the "Dark Side Takes Root" scene. Or the fanfare from "Arrival at Kamino" inserted into the middle of the Imperial March at the end of the movie.

And there's this little thing -- Dooku has a bit of a secondary (!) motif, which you can hear at 4:08 in the Love Pledge/Arena Track. This returns in a big way as Dooku slices off Anakin's hand, in a way that really brings out it's musical similarities with the moment in ESB when Vader does the same to Luke. The motif is nothing more than E-F-Eb, E-E-F-Eb, a frequently occuring musical idea in JW's recent scores (Tavington's theme from the Patriot comes to mind instantly), but it's nice to see it bring some more unity to a score that is for obvious reasons not easy to hear as a whole.

[Greg1138 2]

Hmmmm - interesting - hadn't spotted this before - there is definitely a connection between this and the Love theme, and there is more than a hint of the Force them from the Original trilogy in there.....invert it.....alter a note or two....it's there....I'm humming it along to myself already....just goes to show how complex but accessible JW's music can be, doesn't it?

Will listen out for this theme - given its connections it sounds like a dead cert for a prominent part in Episode III.....bloody well spotted!!!!

[John Crichton 4]

Good points, Falstaft. I'll look for a couple of those things myself. However, I don't think this theme has anything to do with Shmi, the statement in the funeral notwithstanding. It's all about Anakin.

And yes, quite a few people here don't really pay attention to what's going on in the score because they hate both it and the movie. I think that if these cues had made it to the CD we wouldn't be having this conversation, the theme would have been noticed and documented long ago. I very much prefer to have the themes open and staring you in the face too, but that doesn't change the fact that this theme is there.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

And yes, quite a few people here don't really pay attention to what's going on in the score because they hate both it and the movie.

No, like Neil indicated it has more to do with the fact that the films mix makes it hard to hear.

I think that if these cues had made it to the CD we wouldn't be having this conversation, the theme would have been noticed and documented long ago.

Well DUH!

I very much prefer to have the themes open and staring you in the face too, but that doesn't change the fact that this theme is there.

Is this anything like the 30+ years of worshipping TESB's Boba Fett bassoon theme that everyone except me finds to utterly brilliant?

[John Crichton 4]

No, like Neil indicated it has more to do with the fact that the films mix makes it hard to hear.

That has a lot to do with it too. And the scary thing is it's almost a good mix compared to Chamber of Secrets.

Is this anything like the 30+ years of worshipping TESB's Boba Fett bassoon theme that everyone except me finds to utterly brilliant?

Probably, except there no worshipping yet, just discovery. And Boba Fett's theme IS utterly brilliant, smeghead.

John- tempting the wrath of Stefancos

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

It's an effective theme, but only a very small part of the brilliant TESB.

Never understood all the outcry from people that it was not used in ROTJ or AOTC.

[John Crichton 4]

I don't care that it wasn't in ROJ, but I would have like to have heard it in AOTC. It or a variation of it would've made a good theme for Jango. If the disaster of Geonosis hadn't happened, a statement of it would've been perfect for the last shot of Boba, holding his dead father's helmet.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

I'm pretty sure John Williams has no memory of that theme, just like the Emperial Theme from Star Wars (1977)

[Henry B 49]

Yeah, or Jabba the Hutt's theme, or the Tatooine motif.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Well he still knows the Jabba The Hutt theme, since it appears in TPM and he has done it on concerts.

I bet a lot of people will be dismayed if the "conspiracy theme" from AOTC does not make a return in Ep III.

[Henry B 49]

I know. I was being sarcastic. My point is that Williams probably has a very good memory of his Star Wars themes; he just chooses not to use them when they are worn out or irrelevant musically.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

I believe Williams has been quoted saying that he hardly ever listens to his previous scores.

I'm pretty sure we remember more of his themes then he does.

[Luke Skywalker 1,284]

It's an effective theme, but only a very small part of the brilliant TESB.

Never understood all the outcry from people that it was not used in ROTJ or AOTC.

It is part of the Kamino/Bounty Hunter mystery theme...

Or so i want to believe...

[Henry B 49]

I believe Williams has been quoted saying that he hardly ever listens to his previous scores.  

I'm pretty sure we remember more of his themes then he does.

Then how do obscure themes like the Tatooine motif show up twenty-five years later?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

What Tatooine motif?

[hoby12 0]

I know this might be a bit off topic, but I still think John Williams can write a really effective, rocking theme - IE Fawkes the Phoenix. I think FTP is one of the best themes he ever wrote - its a good thing that it is used in the movie for like 20 seconds. And I can totally imagine JW listening to hardcore classical music all the time when he is in the car and relaxing as such. I wonder if he ever does anything except music - like chat on internet fan boards.

[Incanus 5,519]

Well it seems to be connected to the Longing for Mother frenchhorn phrase I mentioned in my analysis. The beginning of the clip is something of a transmutation of the Emperor's theme in my opinion.

[Adam 1]

Thanks for posting the sound clip and its an interesting thought. However, this doesn't seem like one theme to me at all. There are some vaque similarities musically but they are quite different otherwise from a melodic and harmonic standpoint. It would seem odd to me if JW would write a theme that was so "modern" and malleable as to be virtually unrecognizeable (and therefore not particularly useful). The use of the quiet solo french horn in three of the clips perhaps gives the impression the musical ideas are more related than they really are. The first cue bears a closer resemblance to the musical idea introduced in TPM and used in AOTC for his mom though I've always assumed it to be unintentional since the scene doesn't really relate to that idea.

- Adam

[Luke Skywalker 1,284]

I think FTP is one of the best themes he ever wrote .

And also a useful internet feature

[Jeshopk 8]

I agree. It can't be called a theme.

[hoby12 0]

I agree. It can't be called a theme.

Yes when was the last time JW was so timid in showing us one of themes? We usually hear them, or pieces of them, every 10 measures or so.

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

So it's a theme for Anakin. I thought that was something ever since I first heard it in the Anakin/Palpatine scene. I had suspected that was something.

If not a theme, then at least it can be called a motif.

Kinda like the "Call of the Dark Side" motif in ESB (heard in the Vader/Emperor conversation, the beginning of Clash of Lightsabers, and when Vader chops off Luke's hand, among others).

- Marc

[Henry B 49]

What Tatooine motif?

Star Wars - "Imperial Attack" 4:49-4:55

The Phantom Menace - "Arrival at Tatooine" 0:27-end (various permutations of the motif throughout)

Attack of the Clones - "Bounty Hunter's Pursuit" 1:08-1:14 (here it's used for Geonosis, so, I dunno, let's call it the "mysterious planet motif")

[King Mark 2,924]

Ok,listened to the clips.

This is definately a motif of some sort,related to Amakin and Shmi,in fact it's in The Phantom Menace:

TPM UE,Anakin is Free,3.57-4.42.

K.M.

[Henry B 49]

This is also closely ties it to Shmi's theme (the more-defined theme that shows up in "Anakin Is Free" and "The Tusken Camp."

[John Crichton 4]

The passage cited by KM is the only TPM statement of the new version of Shmi's Theme, used in AOTC in The Tusken Camp and in an unreleased cue from just before the Chase through Coruscant begins.

Given where and how this new theme is used I still don't think that it has anything to do with Shmi, just Anakin. Only one scene it's in, the funeral, has anything to do with Shmi. But there is no doubt that the two themes are very similar, and that can't be unintentional.

[The Prick vs The DD 0]

It's an effective theme, but only a very small part of the brilliant TESB.

Never understood all the outcry from people that it was not used in ROTJ or AOTC.

Time for some more theories:

That's right, it's brilliantly small.

You know how tough it is to create few very short repetitive sound bursts from one but unique sounding instrument, and still make it sound musically correct, complete, emotionally dangerous and is also catchy?

I've whistled that small motif a thousand times.

One of the reasons it's brilliant is because it *is* small and completely simplistic *and* still does everything you want to hear.

I believe Williams has been quoted saying that he hardly ever listens to his previous scores.

I'm pretty sure we remember more of his themes then he does.

Sometimes a brilliant man doesn't see his own brilliance and shrugs his creations off as being not as brilliant as others 'know' it is. For him this is normal and common. And so he reacts differently then we would.

Or to be more acurate, brilliant skills results in brilliant standards which are experienced to be average standards from average skills.

He is pondering why no one has such 'average' skills, while we are wishing we had. And then he's somewhat humble.

All of this makes it understandable why he's not as outspoken and reflective over his masterpiece compositions as we are.

[The Prick vs The DD 0]

Yup, a new theme in AOTC that no one else seems to have noticed. Until now. It is a new Anakin's Theme.

You know, if you use your imagination...a lot...you could hear the beginnings of Vader's Theme (Imperial March). Almost like he's experimenting of how to develop the theme, and what direction to take.

Ah come on, I know a couple of you guys have been wondering. I'm, just saying it out loud.

[John Crichton 4]

You know, if you use your imagination...a lot...you could hear the beginnings of Vader's Theme (Imperial March). Almost like he's experimenting of how to develop the theme, and what direction to take.

Ah come on, I know a couple of you guys have been wondering. I'm, just saying it out loud.

You know, I'm glad you brought this up because I too thought this and forgot to mention it.

I've always thought that Anakin's Theme in TPM was loosely based on the B section of the Imperial March. In my conversations with Cerrabore about this theme right after I found it I mentioned that I thought that with this new version of Anakin's Theme, it had been brought closer to that B section of the Imperial March. Thankfully, he being versed in the technicalities of music and I'm not, he agreed.

Now this reminds me of really early spy reports about the recording of the AOTC score. I seem to remember one of the insider reports we got saying that there was a new Anakin's Theme that had been brought closer to the Imperial March. Well, here it is.

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

Let's open up a can of pointless speculation:

Could a full-blown version of this have been the original finale?

- Marc,

[ChrisAfonso 159]

Ah, please, don't mention the original finale....every time I think of it I wanna cry because obviously we're never gonna hear it.

[Incanus 5,519]

Now I have listened to it carefully and I think that is a new theme or motif which I used to call Longing for Mother, but it is used many times outside the scenes involving his mother as you so aptly showed. Maybe it really has more to do with Anakin than his mother. I never for example connected the phrase heard on Shmis's grave or on Naboo as Anakin just decides to go and rescue his mother to the music heard in the Palpatine scene or as Anakin obeys Mace Windu's order to stay on Tatooine while the Jedi go to rescue Obi-Wan.

Interesting. Thank you for pointing this thing out!

Still what does it represent? Adult Anakin? His descent to the dark side? It sounds like Emperor's theme in the scene with Palpatine, but transmutes and changes to a very different sounding in the later scenes. If I recall correctly it is used in a Coruscant scene when Anakin mentiones Shmi to Obi Wan just prior the chase, but I can't remember was it this motif or the primary theme for Shmi.

I don't hear Imperial March that much in it just a faint melodic link perhaps. Williams used very different approach to the scoring of AOTC than in the previous Star Wars scores. It had to be more subdued because of the plot even if it is a SW score. I think many were expecting something totally different with more themes and development of the older established ones. I think the use of smaller motifs and one main theme was a good idea from Williams. Even though I don't know how many of these smaller motifs survive to the next movie and are they developed any further I'd like to hear this theme mentioned above in the next movie as well if it indeed has any thematic coherence in it (it has to do with Anakin etc.).

[John Crichton 4]

Still what does it represent? Adult Anakin? His descent to the dark side?

I believe that it simply represents adult Anakin. It's an evolution of Anakin's Theme from TPM, as I mentioned above.

If I recall correctly it is used in a Coruscant scene when Anakin mentiones Shmi to Obi Wan just prior the chase, but I can't remember was it this motif or the primary theme for Shmi.

That is Shmi's Theme that's quoted there, the only one outside of The Tusken Camp.

Williams used very different approach to the scoring of AOTC than in the previous Star Wars scores. It had to be more subdued because of the plot even if it is a SW score. I think many were expecting something totally different with more themes and development of the older established ones.

Dead on right. Williams gave the movie exactly what it needed, whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing is up to the listener.

[Henry B 49]

Ah, please, don't mention the original finale....every time I think of it I wanna cry because obviously we're never gonna hear it.

We probably will hear it eventually.

[King Mark 2,924]

Remember,soon younger conductors fresh out of music school that grew up on JW will start taking over the concert halls, replacing the snotty Mozart loving gang of crusty classical elitist currently holding the key positions.

I'm sure more Williams will be heard in the concert halls eventually,with new recordings of music we never heard before.

K.M.

[Henry B 49]

And we're sure to get a complete AotC soundtrack release eventually. Probably within five years.

[John Crichton 4]

Remember,soon younger conductors fresh out of music school that grew up on JW will start taking over the concert halls, replacing the snotty Mozart loving gang of crusty classical elitist currently holding the key positions.

I'm sure more Williams will be heard in the concert halls eventually,with new recordings of music we never heard before.

K.M.

Ahhhh, there is hope in the world after all.

And we're sure to get a complete AotC soundtrack release eventually. Probably within five years.

Hopefully we'll get all three sometime after Ep. III comes out, and in less time than it took to get the Anthology and SEs of the OT.

[Docteur Qui 1,248]

Remember,soon younger conductors fresh out of music school that grew up on JW will start taking over the concert halls, replacing the snotty Mozart loving gang of crusty classical elitist currently holding the key positions.

That's my aim in life!

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

And we're sure to get a complete AotC soundtrack release eventually. Probably within five years.

Hopefully we'll get all three sometime after Ep. III comes out, and in less time than it took to get the Anthology and SEs of the OT.

They should release them along with the Star Wars Saga DVD boxset. Although, knowing Sony, it might just be three "Ultimate Editions" with screensavers.

- Marc

[Jeshopk 8]

I've noticed the "serious" music school people in boston have slowed down in their pot shots at film music and williams.

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

Good.

[Greg1138 2]

Remember,soon younger conductors fresh out of music school that grew up on JW will start taking over the concert halls, replacing the snotty Mozart loving gang of crusty classical elitist currently holding the key positions.

I gotta respond to this!

I'm the wrong side of 30, and I have never, ever been to "Music School" (though I do possess a degree in Jazz and Popular Music).....This post smacks of prejudice.....

I was in the first orchestra to perform any music from TPM anywhere in the UK (except, obviously, the recording itself), and have conducted Williams music on many, many occasions. This type of music has just as much a place in the "Orchestra" culture as Mozart (which I have NEVER conducted), Beethoven etc etc....

For anyone that thinks there is a "Snotty Mozart-Loving gang of crusty classical elitists" currently holding the "Key Positions", you need to get out more and look at what's happening at you local concert hall.....

Yes, there are still the stuffy amateur orchestras who will make a big thing out of performing some Scheidt (OK - he wrote mostly Keyboard music - but it's a good musical pun...) or unheard of Mozart "Masterpieces" that has never even made it to CD, but that is now an out-of-date concept and not too common.

The last 10 years have seen a HUGE upsurge in the interest of orchestral music, and Williams place in that upsurge is well-documented, seeing an awful lot of his music performed regularly all over the world.

The role of orchestral music as ENTERTAINMENT is now well-established - and the stuffiness of the DJ's and crappy village halls with orchestras whos combined age would be somewhere in the millions is very, very, over......

Greg - who is actually just off to rehearse an orchestra ready for an annual sell-out concert in the Everyman Theatre in Cheltenham - programme this time includes Scherezade, Night on the Bare Mountain, Let the Bright Seraphim, Spider-Man, Chicago, Lord of the Rings, the Suite from Indiana Jones and Temple of Doom (which I have conducted before and get a real kick out of it!).....you get the drift.....

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

Good.

[King Mark 2,924]

When I see Williams on the front cover of "Gramophone" or the french "Diapason" magazines with a full leinght article about him inside praising his genius,I'll be convinced.

K.M.