Vangelis' Alexander

[pixie_twinkle 44]

Has anyone heard this yet? If so what do you think? I like a lot of Vangelis' music but I also find much of it to be terrible. Side 1 of the Chariots of Fire score was fine, but the 20-minute improvisation on side 2 was really bad. (That's not to say I have a problem with improvisations. Much of his 1984 album Soil Festivities was improvised and I think it's the best thing he ever did). I'm in two minds whether or not to buy Alexander. I probably will eventually but I'm still interested in your opinions.

[diskobolus 3]

I just got it today. It's alright, some great stuff there, but to me it sounds pretty much like 1492, which I think is so-so. Does he use electronics in every score? It seems like there is some used here, which I don't like. Sometimes it's appropriate - my favorite Vangelis score is Blade Runner. Maybe I'll change my mind when I've seen Alexander.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

IDoes he use electronics in every score?

Yes of course, he IS Vangelis.

[ChrisAfonso 159]

That's exactly his problem.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

You can hardly blame a composer for not being able to escape his signature styles and sounds.

[ChrisAfonso 159]

Oh yes I can.

[pixie_twinkle 44]

But that's like blaming Elgar for doubling french horns with violins whenever he wants to be stirring and patriotic! I like Vangelis' use of synths primarily because ever since the seventies he has built his own sound library and has stuck by it. He has never been a "preset" kind of guy, and as such you can instantly tell which is a Vangelis piece by the sounds used. Having said that, these days he doesn't tend to be very creative with the sounds. His Mythodea album was tedious in the extreme. His debut album "Earth" from 1973 is much more adventurous and creative IMO (and is also much less synthy!).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

You can't blame Jerry Goldsmith for sounding like Jerry Goldsmith, wether you like his style of music is another matter though....

[JoeinAR 1,759]

I don't

[AC1 3,565]

But that's like blaming Elgar for doubling french horns with violins whenever he wants to be stirring and patriotic! I like Vangelis' use of synths primarily because ever since the seventies he has built his own sound library and has stuck by it. He has never been a "preset" kind of guy, and as such you can instantly tell which is a Vangelis piece by the sounds used. Having said that, these days he doesn't tend to be very creative with the sounds. His Mythodea album was tedious in the extreme. His debut album "Earth" from 1973 is much more adventurous and creative IMO (and is also much less synthy!).

He started using presets from the moment he worked with workstations.

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Alex Cremers

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

Jerry Goldsmith's application of synths were awesome. Vangelis' are terrible.

[ChrisAfonso 159]

My point is, I'm blaming Vangelis for sticking to his own small sound universe where it would do so much good to expand it. I find the sound of everything I have heard from Alexander so far (those sound clips) mostly inappropriate and underwhelming. If he really used a large orchestra, as was reported, it's almost inaudible. What I hear, are synths, trying to sound like an orchestra. If he would just toss out all the synth and just record the very music he composed with large forces, and make it sound like large forces, I can forgive the rather simplistic composition style (as with several recent Goldsmith scores).

Again, all this under the premise that the sound clips are representative of the score.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

The Filmtracks review suggest a very large orchestra?

[stewdog1 50]

Jerry Goldsmith's application of synths were awesome.  Vangelis' are terrible.

You have got to be kidding me. I laughed out loud when I read that. Please give examples as to why Vangelis' application of synths are terrible. And please stay away from the 1492 argument. That is a very tired and old argument.

Side 1 of the Chariots of Fire score was fine, but the 20-minute improvisation on side 2 was really bad.

The 20 minute piece is actually parts of the score throughout the film edited together. That is a piece that some either love or hate. But it was a masterful job of how it all flows.

I have the score, but have only listened to the first 4 or 5 tracks. The in-laws have been in town all weekend and I have not had the time to break away and listen. But what I have heard is pretty good. Titans reminds me a lot of the title track of 'Voices', some of 'El Greco'.

I have never understood some of you people here. There are so many here that have a preconceived notion of different composers, Vangelis for example, and that no matter how good the music is, you will automatically say that it is crap. You don't even give it a chance and that is sad. The moment "synth" is mentioned some gag.

But there are also those on the other side who think every thing that will come out from a composer will be splended.

But like it or not, Vangelis is one the most talented, influential and important musical artists of our time.

[pixie_twinkle 44]

I certainly don't have a problem with synths. I really like many of Vangelis' CDs, particularly Earth, Albedo 0.39, Beaubourg, Soil Festivities, Mask, and side two of Heaven and Hell (I don't like side one very much, it's too rushed IMO). I also have almost everything by Jean Michel Jarre and Tangerine Dream. I grew up thinking synth music was the best thing ever!

Do you know why there was no CD release of the score to Bitter Moon? I think it's the best music Vangelis has written for a film, but the score was never released!!! The opening theme (two chord ostinato in B-flat) is beautifully haunting. It sets the mood for the film so perfectly.

[stewdog1 50]

Do you know why there was no CD release of the score to Bitter Moon?

I've heard that a new DVD is coming out. Maybe we'll get lucky and see that come out.

I have not listened to Soil Festivities nor Earth. One of these days I'll get both and almost complete my collection. I have especially been waiting to hear Soil Festivities, after all the good things I've heard about it.

[AC1 3,565]

I have not listened to Soil Festivities nor Earth.  One of these days I'll get both and almost complete my collection.  I have especially been waiting to hear Soil Festivities, after all the good things I've heard about it.

Every "Van" fan should have it!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

You have got to be kidding me. I laughed out loud when I read that. Please give examples as to why Vangelis' application of synths are terrible. And please stay away from the 1492 argument. That is a very tired and old argument.

My ears just hate it, especially Blade Runner. Not only were the synths awful, the writing just sounded wrong. His music sticks out like dogs balls, it's distracting. Whereas a lovely synthy Goldsmith score (for example Legend and Poltergeist II: The Other Side) fits nicely in the film and can easily be enjoyed away from the film.

If you don't like my opinion, tough.

[stewdog1 50]

Your opinion always counts, Drax.

I find it odd that one can compare JG's synths with Vangelis. Whereas V's are mostly all synths with other source intruments used in addition, JG uses synths on top of the orchestra. Legend for example, I think is a wonderful score, but the synths are irritatingly out of place, IMO. Bladerunner is practically all synth.

In actuallity, the only one you can directly compare V to, in terms of synths used, would be Randy Edelman in his Gettysburgh work. That is a wonderful piece in it's own right.

[stewdog1 50]

Every "Van" fan should have it!

Maybe I should go on a search this week.

[AC1 3,565]

I certainly don't have a problem with synths. I really like many of Vangelis' CDs, particularly Earth, Albedo 0.39, Beaubourg, Soil Festivities, Mask ...

Wow, you really like Beaubourg? Great! Beaubourg Part 1 (side 1 of the LP, which, incidentally, sounds 10 times better than the CD) is my favorite. The music is all improvised too (lots of CS-80) but I like the balancing between experimental and tonality. It's almost like listening to a serious modern classical composer of the 20th Century (Stockhausen, etc.). I'm hoping for a SACD release from the original master, but what are the odds, huh?

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Alex Cremers

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

Your opinion always counts, Drax.

Oh, thank you. Yours too, otherwise, why am I posting here? 8O

I find it odd that one can compare JG's synths with Vangelis.

They're the two most synthy composers around in the late 20th Century, why not compare them? As for Legend, I admit that I was taken aback by some of the synths on the first track the first time I heard them, but I didn't not like them. My dislike toward Blade Runner stems from my feeling that it simply doesn't sound good and doesn't fit the film because it's plain distracting. The whole score sounded like it was off-key.

I actually didn't mind Gettysberg. Synths only work if it has good writing to back it up, which is the opposite of what BL was.

[stewdog1 50]

Wow, you really like Beaubourg? Great! Beaubourg Part 1 (side 1 of the LP, which, incidentally, sounds 10 times better than the CD) is my favorite. The music is all improvised too (lots of CS-80) but I like the balancing between experimental and tonality. It's almost like listening to a serious modern classical composer of the 20th Century (Stockhausen, etc.). I'm hoping for a SACD release from the original master, but what are the odds, huh?

I've heard pieces of that, but haven't gotten into it yet. It seems to be the hardest to get into of any of V's work.

[AC1 3,565]

You have got to be kidding me. I laughed out loud when I read that. Please give examples as to why Vangelis' application of synths are terrible. And please stay away from the 1492 argument. That is a very tired and old argument.

My ears just hate it, especially Blade Runner. Not only were the synths awful, the writing just sounded wrong. His music sticks out like dogs balls, it's distracting. Whereas a lovely synthy Goldsmith score (for example Legend and Poltergeist II: The Other Side) fits nicely in the film and can easily be enjoyed away from the film.

If you don't like my opinion, tough.

That's funny, Drax. To me its one of the most perfect marriages between image and sound. They're almost inseperable. Blade Runner, the movie, is enhanced, taken to another level, by its soundtrack. If I listen to the CD(s) of Blade Runner I always miss the visuals. I can't imaging this movie with another soundtrack. IMO, it can not be improved. At the very least, it provided a unique blend, which is something all too rare in movies. I'm glad Scott didn't met with Zimmer yet when he made Blade Runner.

For the record, I would've agreed with your critique if you were talking about 1942.

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Alex Cremers

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

For the record, I would've agreed with your critique if you were talking about 1942.

You might or might not agree with me after I actually hear 1492. Until then, I'll reserve judgement.

[AC1 3,565]

I've heard pieces of that, but haven't gotten into it yet.  It seems to be the hardest to get into of any of V's work.

Yes, it takes more than a few listens. But I'm used to this music since I mostly listen to modern composers. I once read that Vangelis has a lot of tapes full of improvised music. Music which is not suited for commercial purpose. This stuff interests me more than his "regular" work. When Vangelis improvises he comes up with chords, melodies, harmonies, structures which are far more daring, although I've to admit that 'Invisible Connections' was too much (or too little, too few) for me.

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Alex Cremers

[diskobolus 3]

My ears just hate it, especially Blade Runner.  Not only were the synths awful, the writing just sounded wrong.  His music sticks out like dogs balls, it's distracting.

I think that using synths does not automatically qualify a score as bad, and I don't think really anyone would argue that. There are some beautiful scores that use synth. That said, I feel Vangelis is hit-or-miss. Sometimes the synths are a completely appropriate sound, such as in Blade Runner. At the same time, I'm having a hard time understanding why a sound that is so clearly electronic belongs in an ancient epic. It just didn't need to be used.

[Lurker 5]

I love Blade Runner. The Bounty is also very good. I'm not the biggest Vangelis fan, but I play his "Themes" album quite often.

Neil

[stewdog1 50]

I once read that Vangelis has a lot of tapes full of improvised music. Music which is not suited for commercial purpose. This stuff interests me more than his "regular" work. When Vangelis improvises he comes up with chords, melodies, harmonies, structures which are far more daring, although I've to admit that 'Invisible Connections' was too much (or too little, too few) for me.  

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Alex Cremers

I've heard about that too. I would love one day for him to release a mulitple disk set of this stuff. It would be interesting to say the least.

Thanks for posting that about Blade Runner. You took the words right out of my mouth.

[stewdog1 50]

I've finally been able to listen to this several times now. In a word, Excellent!

There have been few albums that I have enjoyed fully from beginning to end the first time I listened to them. Alexander is one of them. We must all remember that Vangelis edits his albums in a cohesive listening structure that may not be totally representative of what you hear in the movie. When listening to the album, V wants you to be immersed in the music rather than going from track to track. Zimmer did a good representation of this method with Gladiator. However, as much as I love Gladiator, I think Alexander is much better.

Two of the best cues on the album are Across the Mountains and Eternal Alexander. Much better the the Titans cue that they were selling the album on. But I digress. The only cue that seems a bit out of place would be Roxanne's Veil, but it is a very nice piece with some beautiful violin solo work.

The album is much different than 1492 in all aspects. There have been comparisons, but I think those are off base. If you were to compare it to anything V has done before, your best bet would be Voices, Mask and El Greco.

I'm looking forward to hear how this score works in the film. I can easily see this being nominated by the Academy. Two of my picks so far this year for possible score of the year would be Alexander and The Incredibles.

[Morlock 9]

I'm looking forward to hear how this score works in the film.  I can easily see this being nominated by the Academy.

Not if the film sucks as bad as people say it does.

[pixie_twinkle 44]

I've heard pieces of that, but haven't gotten into it yet.  It seems to be the hardest to get into of any of V's work.

Yes, it takes more than a few listens. But I'm used to this music since I mostly listen to modern composers. I once read that Vangelis has a lot of tapes full of improvised music. Music which is not suited for commercial purpose. This stuff interests me more than his "regular" work. When Vangelis improvises he comes up with chords, melodies, harmonies, structures which are far more daring, although I've to admit that 'Invisible Connections' was too much (or too little, too few) for me.

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Alex Cremers

Yes I really love Beaubourg. I honestly don't think it's too hard to get into as it is constantly changing and shifting. If you don't like one part you only have to wait a few minutes and it changes completely. In that way it is kind of similar to the 1971 bootleg LP Hypothesis, which I also like. I especially like the moment in part one (of Beaubourg) which I think of as the "ghost dance" where the music becomes darkly ballroom-esque. It's the section that begins at 9.03 into part one.

I also agree with you that Invisible Connections was a bit much. I like side one a lot (I find the sad synth "voice" crying out in the closing minutes very moving. It cries out once, then is answered by its "mate". Then every time it cries out after that there is no answer. It is alone :cry: ). Side two by contrast I find to be very cold and uninteresting.

As for Soil Festivities, I LOVE it. I think it's his best music. It is mostly improvised, but three of the five movements have programmed ostinati that Vangelis plays over giving a sense of cohesion. This was at the height of synth music for me in that each sound Vangelis uses represents a recognisable instrument of the orchestra, and yet the sounds are so synth-like that they sound good in their own right as synth sounds. Nowadays synthy orchestral sounds are closer to the real instruments they try to imitate, which just makes it all the more obvious how tacky and inappropriate they are. They don't sound as good as real instruments, and yet they no longer have their own original "synthyness" that the 80s sounds had. Aaah nostalgia.

Bach: Christ lag in Todesbanden

[pixie_twinkle 44]

At the same time, I'm having a hard time understanding why a sound that is so clearly electronic belongs in an ancient epic. It just didn't need to be used.

I know what you're saying, but does a modern symphony orchestra have any more right to be in an ancient epic than a synthesizer score? It's all a part of the magic of hollwood!

Bach: Christ lag in Todesbanden

[Incanus 5,519]

I have listened to the album quite a few times now (my friend bought it and has been playing it for days now and I have gotten my share of it) and have to say it did not impress me that much. I was dissappointed to say the least. The Titans piece is mediocre at best and the rest of the album seems to revolve around exotic world music numbers along with few listenable tracks. And before some of you Vangelis lovers start bashing me I must say that Vangelis' style is simply not to my liking, never has been and propably never will be. I saw Blade Runner for the first time (believe it or not) just few days ago and his music indeed adds a whole new level to the movie's athmosphere but the soundtrack as a listening experience makes no impact on me what so ever.

I just don't like his style period!

[stewdog1 50]

Incanus,

At least you are honest with your feelings. At least you gave it a try. Most won't even go that far.

But if you can't tell from some of the previous messages, V's music sometimes takes several listens before you really get it. Maybe sometime down the road you'll pull out a V cd you haven't listened to in a while, and really appreciate it then.

Or you won't

[pixie_twinkle 44]

My lucky day!

My local CD Exchange got hold of a copy of the Alexander score from a company that had been overstocked. They unwrapped the CD and sold it to me as second hand for $8.00! I'm listening to it now. I haven't been bowled over yet, but it's pleasant enough. Roxanne's Veil is pretty. Titans I found to be disappointing. It sounded too much like many of the drum-oriented tracks that cropped up on that film-music quiz site last month! Track 4 I liked a lot (The Drums of Guagemala). Track 11 (The Charge) for all its brevity sounds like Vangelis' album Mask in that it was also a choral homage to Prokofiev's Alexander Njevsky. Some of the melodies seem rather trite when heard on the CD, in particular track 13 (Into the Mountains), but I look forward to seeing how it appears in the movie. It feels like it will probably work much better when accompanying grand landscape visuals. The highlight of the score is the gorgeous "Immortality" (track 15). I'm glad I bought this CD as new Vangelis CDs are something of a rarity these days. I don't hear anything groundbreakingly amazing, and it is a little close to Howard Shore's "Rings" scores for my liking, but it's at least as good as those scores are.

[Morlock 9]

I had a chance to buy the CD for $10. Gave it a listen, found nothing new, and instead got Gremlins, Patriot Games, The Green Mile, Die Another Day and the World is not Enough. I'm quite content.

[AC1 3,565]

I had a chance to buy the CD for $10. Gave it a listen, found nothing new, and instead got Gremlins, Patriot Games, The Green Mile, Die Another Day and the World is not Enough. I'm quite content.

All this for a merely 10 bucks?

[Morlock 9]

Actually, I had to add about $2.50 (it was 10 Shekels apiece). A good buy, even though I'm not really passionate about any of the CDs (It's nice to say I have Gremlins, but I've already got all the tracks I want from a boot). They're nice to have. I haven't gone to this specific CD store in a while, so they had to adjust their prices (luckily, they haven't a clue what specific CDs are worth. But I guess they're worth what people'll pay for 'em, and as far as I know, I'm the only soundtrack fan in the entire country).

[stewdog1 50]

DAD and TWiNE are both excellent pickups. Hope you enjoy them!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Especially TWINE.

[ChrisAfonso 159]

I'd love to hear an orchestra-only, no-synth version of DAD...

Somehone has to get hold of the master tapes.

[Morlock 9]

I'd love to hear an orchestra-only, no-synth version of DAD...

Somehone has to get hold of the master tapes.

Just as likely as me getting all those musicals I love without any of the vocals.

[QMM 4]

IGN's posted a video interview with Vangelis himself on Alexander. . . .

http://music.ign.com/articles/567/567614p1.html

[Morlock 9]

You need to be a member.

Morlock- who's never seen or heard Vangelis

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

That's your cue, Stewdog.

Ray Barnsbury

[Morlock 9]

Anyone know if there's any wau to get THIS one without being a member?