Lurker 5 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 Pick one.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 Don't you mean:What is the Best Film Score Horner Has Referenced?OrWhat is the Best Film Score Horner Has Payed Homage Too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted November 29, 2004 Author Share Posted November 29, 2004 I meant what I said.Neil - anticipating calls from lawyers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 No, 'ripped off like the hack he is' I think is better.Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanticStrings 10 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 I voted Star Wars because I don't want to offend the fans of Williams who might visit this board, and I don't no what Horner scores rip off these movie scores. I also enjoy the music from Star Wars, so I thought it would make a good vote.~Conor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fommes 153 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 I voted for ALIEN because it stood out from the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,082 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 Night Crossing - if only because it's missing from the list.Marian - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpeteer 302 Posted November 29, 2004 Share Posted November 29, 2004 I vote for one not one the list.The best score he has ripped off is "Braveheart." Every action movie since then has some signature musical moment prominently featured to great effect in that film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendal_Ozzel 36 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 It's not really a film score, but Raymond Scott's "Powerhouse" is a great piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coscina 3 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Neil, you should have included Rachmaninoff's 1st Symphony, 1st mvmnt. That 4 note "danger motif" that little bugger always uses is right out of Rachmaninoff. And he uses it so much throughout his career I think this is the winner. I know the topic was "film score" but honestly, the level of proliferation of this particular motif is more abundant than any other piece Jimmy has ripped off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Yes but don't you think he uses it in so many different and interesting ways?It sounds so fresh and new all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoby12 0 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Rachmaninoff is even better then John Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Ok i just read what I posted above.I CAN'T TAKE THIS ANYMORE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Rachmaninoff is even better then John Williams.OK, now that's just crazy talk, that is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoby12 0 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 JW stole the Allegro Marcia motif in Rachmaninoff's second piano concerto first movement in his Spyders from Minority Report.Hoby ( who performed the C minor Concerto last year and the D minor 2 years before that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 JW stole the Allegro Marcia motif in Rachmaninoff's second piano concerto first movement in his Spyders from Minority Report.Hoby ( who performed the C minor Concerto last year and the D minor 2 years before that)John Williams never steals, he is inspired by, references or pays homage too....It's not James Horner we are talking about here, this is John T. "DA censored MAN" Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,082 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Neil, you should have included Rachmaninoff's 1st Symphony, 1st mvmnt. That 4 note "danger motif" that little bugger always uses is right out of Rachmaninoff.Actually, it features prominently in Wagner's Ring des Nibelungen, as the first four notes of the resentment motif and some related motifs. While the original Wagner theme has the last note a semitone lower then Horner (i.e. 4=2), the "danger motif" variation does turn up several times as well.Marian - who likes to add that Goldsmith took one of the major Basic Instinct themes right out of Shostakovich's Piano Concerto No. 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 So...if Goldsmith steals then it is a positive thing.When Horner does it, he's a hopeless hack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted November 30, 2004 Author Share Posted November 30, 2004 How silly of me. I left of Jaws and Patton.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendal_Ozzel 36 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 And Amarcord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Hmm, he ripped off star wars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_twinkle 48 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 John Williams ripped off Strauss in Superman, Stravinsky in Star Wars, Hanson in E.T., Kilar in Schindler's List etc etc. He rips off himself too. JFK in Jurassic Park, Amistad in American Journey, Hook in Attack of the Clones etc etc. The difference with Williams is that he does it so well! His rip-offs are never tacky or tasteless, and never usually detract from his own music. It's all good. Some may even say that Adventure on Earth sounds better than Hanson's Romantic Symphony (on which it is clearly based). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docteur Qui 1,544 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Nononononono. Rip-offs are direct lifts from existing scores, meant to be disguised. Williams refers to, pays homage to and is influenced by Stravinski, Strauss etc. There's a difference; Williams doesn't do it so blatantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 Hmm, he ripped off star wars?Listen to Project X, "The Escape" (track 14) 2:16 into it. You'll hear it just before The Blue Max rip off.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_twinkle 48 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Nononononono. Rip-offs are direct lifts from existing scores, meant to be disguised. Williams refers to, pays homage to and is influenced by Stravinski, Strauss etc. There's a difference; Williams doesn't do it so blatantly.Listen to Strauss' Death and Transfiguration. The theme that enters halfway through (and continues through the end of the piece) is the opening motive from the love theme from Superman. It really is quite blatant. It's one of the main themes in Superman, which makes it a rip-off.As for the moments in Star Wars (The Droids on Tattooine comes from the beginning of Rite of Spring pt 2) and E.T. (Adventure on Earth is the final movement of Hanson's 2nd Symphony) these are worked into the score so could well be seen as homage.However to me a homage is either a brief extract (as in the quote from the score to Psycho in Star Wars, or the quote from The Sea Hawk in Hook), or an entire piece or movement written in the style of someone else (as in my masterful Homage to Elgar in my latest Sinfonietta). The E.T. and Star Wars sections seem to be taking way too much of a liberty to be in the true spirit of a homage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Listen to Strauss' Death and Transfiguration. The theme that enters halfway through (and continues through the end of the piece) is the opening motive from the love theme from Superman. It really is quite blatant. It's one of the main themes in Superman, which makes it a rip-off. Yes, and it does have some what similar orchestrations. However it's merely 5 notes of a much longer theme.It's not uncommon for Williams to borrow 5 notes of a theme, the star wars theme after all borrows 5 notes from korngolds king row.entire piece or movement written in the style of someone else Film scores don't have movements, Adventures on earth is however a whole section of the movie and I think it'd be comparable to a movement that is a homage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_twinkle 48 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Listen to Strauss' Death and Transfiguration. The theme that enters halfway through (and continues through the end of the piece) is the opening motive from the love theme from Superman. It really is quite blatant. It's one of the main themes in Superman, which makes it a rip-off. Yes, and it does have some what similar orchestrations. However it's merely 5 notes of a much longer theme.It's not uncommon for Williams to borrow 5 notes of a theme, the star wars theme after all borrows 5 notes from korngolds king row.entire piece or movement written in the style of someone else Film scores don't have movements, Adventures on earth is however a whole section of the movie and I think it'd be comparable to a movement that is a homage.I agree with your argument regarding E.T. Adventures on Earth. A fair comment. Your first point is also good, but I don't think it applies to the Superman theme/Death and Transfiguration. Unlike the Star Wars/King's Row example Williams doesn't just borrow 5 notes. He uses the exact same rhythm and meter. And more importantly he uses the same harmony. The most striking thing about the Strauss and Williams theme is the harmony in measure two switches to MajorII giving it that strong lydian feel. I agree that Williams uses merely the first 5 notes in a much longer melody, but these five notes are an entity in themselves, they are the head motive, bold and assertive. The following notes, lovely though they are, are secondary to the head motive. Imagine if someone took the first 7 notes of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow", complete with rhythm and harmony. It wouldn't matter how they changed the melody after that, it would still be Somewhere Over the Rainbow until the notes changed. That's how I feel about the Superman Love Theme. I always hear Death and Transfiguration followed by John Williams' continuation. Don't get me wrong, I really love Williams' theme, I just think it's a little more than a homage when you take another composer's head motive and then construct your own continuation after it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I think you make good points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Yeah, but he dislikes Shore, so i'm sure his logic is flawed somewere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Ahh yes how right you are, pixie_twinkle it's still just 5 notes. :spiny: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_twinkle 48 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 :spiny: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymenard 54 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 Ha lol "The Escape" from Project X is like the most bundled ripped off Horner.. EVAR. There's almost a dozen ripoffs, from Star Wars to his Krull, Star Trek 2... the start is basically Gayane's Ballet Suite (which he ripped off like a dozen time in other movies), The Blue Max, Aliens, etc... Heck the piece is driven by the 4 note danger motif, same for the drums ripped off a decade later again in Apollo 13.It's still, in the end, a beautiful piece. That's why Horner is... Horner. But that Star Wars ripoff is ugly. I mean WHAT WAS HE THINKING? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,082 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 Hmm, he ripped off star wars?Listen to Project X, "The Escape" (track 14) 2:16 into it.Or in Aliens, the climax from that score seems to be based on Williams Death Star explosion, which is in turn based on Holst.Marian - :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 Does that displease you?Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 Or in Aliens, the climax from that score seems to be based on Williams Death Star explosion, which is in turn based on Holst.Williams is a mindless hack! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 This displeases me.Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted December 2, 2004 Author Share Posted December 2, 2004 Williams is a mindless hack!Hey, that's a half truth!Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 186 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 He rips off himself too. JFK in Jurassic Park, Amistad in American Journey, (...)Those two I would consider intentional, as there is a topical reference... in JP, it's also used for a "conspiracy" scene, and the Amistad/PAtriot/American Journey thing I would also see as a (non_musical) thematic relation which he reinforces with the (musical) thematic reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 Yeah they were intentional self-plagerisms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 186 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 No, Steef, plagiarism is when you copy something with the intention that nobody will notice it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 Ah, like with The Patriot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 186 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 Possibly.-Chris, who has never really warmed to the Patriot score, apart from the gorgeous violin theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QMM 4 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 Meh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 If you are going to post a single word message at least do it without the huge confusing signature picture which makes no sense.Justin - Wondering how Superman will foil Lex's fiendish scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QMM 4 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Lex Luthor is a terrible man because he stole 40 cakes'nuff said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Your sig is to big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_twinkle 48 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Maybe, but it had me laughing! Superman vs the terrible cake theft plot!!! How will the world survive??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Yeah I mean he already lost a cake of the back of his cart. Now he's only got 3 tens 1 five and 4 ones.Justin - Who thinks that's only semi-terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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