AC1 3,565 Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 So, if film composers like Williams, Goldenthal and Horner don't excel in good song writing, then who are the great songwriters? What songs (2-5 minute tune with sung lyrics from any genre: pop, jazz, soundtrack) do you consider good?----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Williams and Horner write fine songs.Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Andrade 964 Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 So, if film composers like Williams, Goldenthal and Horner don't excel in good song writing, then who are the great songwriters? What songs (2-5 minute tune with sung lyrics from any genre: pop, jazz, soundtrack) do you consider good?----------------Alex CremersYes, i also want to know what people think is a good song...Miguel, who thinks that Williams is in fact a good song writter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251 Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 David Arnold! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 John Barry.Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mahler3 353 Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Henry Mancini wrote some cracking songs!...there's always Bruce Broughton's 'Tiny Toons' song!!!! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HPFAN_2 0 Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 I like all type of songs from Sam Cookes' "Change gonna come" To Cole Porter's Anything Goes to my current favorite Destiny's Child Lose my breath. To me it has to sound good and the lyrics have to be creative and moving, the lyrics can also be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeekUYoda 0 Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 So, if film composers like Williams, Goldenthal and Horner don't excel in good song writing, then who are the great songwriters? What songs (2-5 minute tune with sung lyrics from any genre: pop, jazz, soundtrack) do you consider good?----------------Alex CremersYes, i also want to know what people think is a good song...Miguel, who thinks that Williams is in fact a good song writter.Well, I'm partial to Lloyd Webber's "Unexpected Song" in particular, but most of Rodgers & Hammerstein is excellent too... I actually like a lot of Lloyd Webber's songs except "Memory." "Electra" from Starlight Express is one of my favorites, still, and I love "Sunset Boulevard" with all the mixed meter. Some of Sondheim's stuff will really make you cry too - "Losing my Mind," in particular, and I love how clever much of "Into the Woods" is. There are great melodies in "The Last Midnight too."Gershwin & Berlin & Mancini ... hard to go wrong there, really!If we're really going to talk about song - artsong, that is - Brahms is my favorite. You can't beat the way he weaves the voice and piano together. I don't listen to a lot of pop music, sorry... can't add much there. When I do, I like the older BNL songs because they're so unusual and clever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McClane 1 Posted December 15, 2004 Share Posted December 15, 2004 Randy Newman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam 1 Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 My earlier point was to say that JW doesn?t write songs intended for mass commercial appeal, and if he did he probably wouldn?t be too good at it, as I believe he's more or less admitted. However, I regard him as a very good songwriter for what he?s trying to do. But I can?t compare that to a great Beatles song or something. They?re off in different dimensions. I listen to Star of Bethleham many times and Hear Comes the Sun by The Beatles many times. I couldn?t possibly compare them in any meaningful sense.The first one tries to be a pretty Christmas carol full of religious feeling and JW wrote something brilliant to that end. The latter was an attempt by a rock band at a commercially viable song to reach a mass audience which I happen to enjoy listening to a lot. That?s just one song but you see my point...Actually Simon and Garfunkle are one of the few groups I know of who combined lyrics worthy of poetry with quality music, at least for many of their songs. That?s a hard combination to pull off. And their music in The Graduate is also a somewhat rare case of popular songs written to very good effect in a movie.- Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytrumpet 0 Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 Mancini did write some great songs...Williams..maybe not great songs,but not that bad either.Rogers and Hammerstein comes to mind for good combination of lyrics and music.Many more could be named,but my memory is failing tonight...frigging Nutcracker is making my brain numb.... :? Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC1 3,565 Posted December 16, 2004 Author Share Posted December 16, 2004 And their music in The Graduate is also a somewhat rare case of popular songs written to very good effect in a movie.Now THAT I agree with. There's a really great chemistry going on between the songs and images in The Graduate. I also love the rhythmic acoustic guitar bit when Dustin races to the church (the scene has been spoofed in Wayne's World 1). So simple and yet ... perfect. Another example for me is 'Everybody's Talking At Me' in Midnight Cowboy when Joe Buck is still full of hope and sets off for New York. Pure movie magic.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh500 1,602 Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 Some great song writers off the top of my head: Diane Warren BabyfaceAndrew Lloyd WebberJohn Williams John Lennon All great musicians of the century, all great songwriters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docteur Qui 1,248 Posted December 16, 2004 Share Posted December 16, 2004 Cole PorterMel BrooksAndrew Lloyd WebberAnthony Newley and Leslie Bricusse (not all of his lyrics are bad...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 5,520 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Williams and Horner write fine songs.Rarely. But Goldenthal's songs are great.Marian - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC1 3,565 Posted December 17, 2004 Author Share Posted December 17, 2004 Williams and Horner write fine songs.Rarely. But Goldenthal's songs are great.Marian - You call 'The Dream Within' fom Final Fantasy a great song? Get outta here (if you do)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 5,520 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 You call 'The Dream Within' fom Final Fantasy a great song? Get outta here (if you do)!I do. Other Goldenthal songs like In Dreams are very good, but Dream Within is his best IMHO.Marian - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC1 3,565 Posted December 17, 2004 Author Share Posted December 17, 2004 Get outta here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 9 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 The following songs are good, as are their songwriters:Feel FlowsGood VibrationsGod Only KnowsHere Come The SunYesterdayEleanor RigbeyWith a Little Help from My FriendsShe's Leaving HomeIn My LifeAll Along The WatchtowerThe HurricaneKnockin' on Heaven's DoorStuck in The Middle With YouThe Times they are a' changin'The WindWild WorldTiny DancerYour SongStairway to HeavenThe Immigrant SongAmericaThe BoxerMrs. RobinsonThe Sound of SilenceThe Show Must go OnBohemian RhapsodyAnother One Bites The DustToo Much Love will Kill YouSomebody to LovePurple HazeOn The Road AgainTurn, Turn, TurnSweet Child of MineSweet Home AlabamaBlack BettyJanie's Got A GunLivin' on The EdgeAmazingCalifornia Dreamin'More Than a feelingSultans of SwingFor What it's WorthAmerican PieJust Dropped InBreak on ThroughAlways look on the Bright Side of LifeLand of 1000 dancesEverydayHeavenEverybody's Talkin' at meAccentuate the PositiveAbout HerThe Chanuka songAlbuquerqueCottelston PieHalfway Down The StairsMovin' Right AlongSimon Smith and his Dancing BearThe Rainbow ConnectionA Mighty WindA Kiss at The End of the RainbowC'est MoiOh What a CircusWaltz for Eva and CheIf I were a Rich ManTo LifeJet SongCool Music for a While Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC1 3,565 Posted December 17, 2004 Author Share Posted December 17, 2004 Sounds like one of those retail compilation CDs, Morlock. At least, I agree with some of them. But really, Aerosmith and Boston?!----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Just so Ross doesn't have to say it.Alan Menken.Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 9 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 But really, Aerosmith and Boston?! I'm not a big fan of either, but I love that one Boston song, and Aerosmith have a few good ones. Janie's Got a Gun is a great song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 459 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Well, to be honest the topic-question "What are good songs?" is a very difficult question to answer (many would even say impossible to answer) because any answer given is immensely clouded by subjectivity. I know I started the topic about John Williams being such a lame songwriter, but, in the end that is just my personal opinion. The statement that Williams is a bad songwriter is as far from fact as saying blue is the most beautiful colour. If anyone (although I can't imagine it) gets wild and totally freaks out when listening to the theme-song from John Goldfarb, Please Get Home, hey, who am I to judge? If Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas puts a tear in someone's eyes, because that person cannot control the emotions that song provokes in him, than that's fine. When it comes to art there are no definitions for good or bad; it's all a matter of taste. Of course, being arrogant and all, I am very proud of my taste (as I'm sure we all are) and therefore, at times I admit, perceive my taste as being superior to others (I am just being honest here, but I'm sure I'll find some consensus here since we all share a love for John Williams and film music).These are some of my favourite songs. Oh, and I have taken them from the pop/rock scene. With Or Without You - U2Purple Rain - PrinceSweet Child O' Mine - Guns N' RosesBrothers In Arms - Dire StraitsGoodnight Saigon - Billy JoelI could go on and on and on and on... I've got so many favourites. One could say that a good song has to have some depth (many chords, deep arrangement, etc.) That would apply to Paul Simon or Mark Knopfler. On the other hand a song like With Or Without You is eerily simple, yet astounding...Just my opinion, OK?In the film music scene I've always respected Alan Menken and James Horner for their ability to fuse orchestral scoring with accessible song writing. For me; John Williams only made that leap once (A.I., "For Always", but since that had absolutely no existence in the finished film - not even during the end credits - I still find it faulty). And maybe on Home Alone.Roald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 480 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Most stuff by U2 is pretty good. As is stuff by The Beatles. I also enjoy Pink Floyd's "The Division Bell" album. Most of the time, my taste vary along with my moods, though, and there are many artists of whom I really keep going back to only one or two songs of.Oh, and stuff by Trey Parker and Matt Stone is always hilarious. - Marc Terrance & Phillip - Uncle F*cka from South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam 1 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Roald's point about subjectivity is one that I think about a lot for some strange reason. I actually think there is both a subjective aspect and an objective aspect to what constitues good music or good art, though its hard to talk about it because we can?t really pinpoint what that objective aspect is.The subjective aspect is easy to see - we?re all exposed to different types of musical experiences, grow up at different times and places, etc. and you?d expect tastes to differ from person to person. And that?s obviously a good thing as life would be pretty depressing if we always agreed on everything and we can grow to appreciate things that we might otherwise not.But there?s an objective aspect that must be there, I think, since as humans we all share a capacity for asthetic expression and appreciation and there?s every reason to believe that we all share the same basic human nature. To take a really easy example, a great Mozart piece is objectively better than a chorus of screetching fingernails on a blackboard. And the reason isn?t just because our tastes have been shaped to appreciate one and hate the other. I think it must be the case that Mozart comes closer to expressing something fundamental to our human nature, our capacity to create and enjoy, which utlitmately is universal, though, again, specific tastes will differ. Course that doesn?t get us very far when we move to harder comparisons, since we?re only left with our own intuition about what is grounded in something more universal and what is purely subjective. Anyway, not a crucial point and obviously a great deal of humility is warranted before declaring something better or worse in some sort of objective sense, especially since there are a range of criteria that people can look to when approaching music. But just something I think about occasionally, believe it or not. ( : Like a lot of people's choices for songs, by the way, though I'm not familiar with more than a few of them. I like that you included The Rainbow Connection, Morlock. I have a soft spot for that one and Kermit's bad singing somehow works great - I guess it gives the song a certain authenticity and tenderness.- Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivier 5 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Williams has written several good songs. Horner is very good at it too.Barry certianly is the best, or at the very least one of the five very best. Its tunes are incredibly, instantly catchy and hummable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Howard Shore!There...I said it....I said it...it had to be said!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC1 3,565 Posted December 17, 2004 Author Share Posted December 17, 2004 Quote of the day:I don't believe in subjectivity. Subjectivity is invented so people can get away with bad taste. -Alex Cremers-----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 Typical for Alex to blow his own....horn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRuleOfThirds 0 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 If we're talking just plain rock--not movie-related songwriters--I'd say Eric Clapton. I'm not sure if his lyrics are the best. They're fine to me, but I'm not that much of a poet. I just tend to like the sound of Clapton more than anything. I'd probably better off just listing bands that have consistently had songs I've liked.Here's my list:The DoorsThe EaglesBlack SabbathThe Beach BoysJimmy BuffettQueenAerosmithCreamThe Dire StraitsPink FloydFleetwood MacI could say a couple more, but I think I'd be run out of here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McClane 1 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 NOFX writes great songs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted December 17, 2004 Share Posted December 17, 2004 I don't believe in subjectivity. Subjectivity is invented so people can get away with bad taste.Since opinions are developed in our minds and subjectivity is "Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world" I can only conclude that while your theory is sound it's not applicable unless a preconceived set of rules has already been in place around whatever it is we are forming our opinion on. For example I can subjectively form the opinion that I can breath under water without outside assistance but I will soon discover that my subjectivity is null. I don't think that same thing can be applied to something like music.Of course it's all subjective....Or is it?Justin - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam 1 Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 Whoa, and I thought I had a handle on this subject. The way my mind works, I had to read the above post a dozen times, convinced there's some real meaning there. But with regard to your quote of the day, Alex, it seems you're taking the opposite extreme as Roald, which would be pretty hard to defend. There's too much variation in how we appreciate art from culture to culture and person to person. Who's to say with any certainty that one or the other reflects "bad taste"?- Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 I may be totally off my rocker but wasn't it Mancini that never really learned how to read music yet he wrote thousands of songs? or was it some other guy around that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam 1 Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 Hmm.. good question. 1000s of songs would be an amazing feat no matter what the circumstances but that's the first I've heard of that and I'm pretty sure Mancini hasn't been that prolific. - Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC1 3,565 Posted December 18, 2004 Author Share Posted December 18, 2004 But with regard to your quote of the day, Alex, it seems you're taking the opposite extreme as Roald, which would be pretty hard to defend. There's too much variation in how we appreciate art from culture to culture and person to person. Who's to say with any certainty that one or the other reflects "bad taste"?- AdamQuote of the day:Practice and Experience ... and Openness (the biggest obstacle of them all) are required if one wants to cultivate himself. -Alex Cremers----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 I'll ask my dad again and post in a couple of hours who the person is that wrote all that music. . blah blah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 9 Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 Barry certianly is the best, or at the very least one of  the five very best. Its tunes are incredibly, instantly catchy and hummable. Isn't Barry a human being?Howard Shore!There...I said it....I said it...it had to be said!!! No, YOU had to say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam 1 Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 But with regard to your quote of the day, Alex, it seems you're taking the opposite extreme as Roald, which would be pretty hard to defend. There's too much variation in how we appreciate art from culture to culture and person to person. Who's to say with any certainty that one or the other reflects "bad taste"?- AdamQuote of the day:Practice and Experience ... and Openness (the biggest obstacle of them all) are required if one wants to cultivate himself. -Alex Cremers----------------Alex CremersWhoops, I guess I inadvertantly encouraged the quote of the day phenomenon. I?m not much for slogans absent any kind of explanation because they?re almost always going to fall short of being convincing and often seem to be used in lieu of saying something convincing. But it seems that failing to recognize the validity of subjective interpretations to art would be theopposite of ?openness?, in which case your second quote has more relevance than perhaps you?re willing to recognize. - Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kendal_Ozzel 32 Posted December 18, 2004 Share Posted December 18, 2004 Alan Menken. I've been watching all the bonus material on the Aladdin DVD lately. I've heard the song "Proud of Your Boy" maybe 3 times and I already can't get it out of my head! (On a side note, I think I almost prefer Menken's vocals to Clay Aiken's.) But all the songs in that film are great. Same goes for all his Disney films (save Home on the Range, which I can't speak for). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC1 3,565 Posted December 19, 2004 Author Share Posted December 19, 2004 By dismissing my beautiful quotes you show little openness yourself, Adam. I think my "quotes" speak volumes. Maybe they don't cover all grounds but there's truth to be found in them. I was hoping you could figure them out by yourself. To further annoy you, let me throw upon you one more quote:Practice and experience (all forms of education) will lead to a bigger understanding and a wider appreciation.-Alex Cremers ----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McClane 1 Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 The following songs are good, as are their songwriters:Feel FlowsGood VibrationsGod Only KnowsHere Come The SunYesterdayEleanor RigbeyWith a Little Help from My FriendsShe's Leaving HomeIn My LifeAll Along The WatchtowerThe HurricaneKnockin' on Heaven's DoorStuck in The Middle With YouThe Times they are a' changin'The WindWild WorldTiny DancerYour SongStairway to HeavenThe Immigrant SongAmericaThe BoxerMrs. RobinsonThe Sound of SilenceThe Show Must go OnBohemian RhapsodyAnother One Bites The DustToo Much Love will Kill YouSomebody to LovePurple HazeOn The Road AgainTurn, Turn, TurnSweet Child of MineSweet Home AlabamaBlack BettyJanie's Got A GunLivin' on The EdgeAmazingCalifornia Dreamin'More Than a feelingSultans of SwingFor What it's WorthAmerican PieJust Dropped InBreak on ThroughAlways look on the Bright Side of LifeLand of 1000 dancesEverydayHeavenEverybody's Talkin' at meAccentuate the PositiveAbout HerThe Chanuka songAlbuquerqueCottelston PieHalfway Down The StairsMovin' Right AlongSimon Smith and his Dancing BearThe Rainbow ConnectionA Mighty WindA Kiss at The End of the RainbowC'est MoiOh What a CircusWaltz for Eva and CheIf I were a Rich ManTo LifeJet SongCool  Music for a While Another short list brought to you by Morlock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 9 Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 Last time it was 90, this time it's 69....we're in the right direction! You should know, that with my opinions, once you pop- you just can't stop. Oh, and 69, DUDES! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251 Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 I love 69! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam 1 Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 By dismissing my beautiful quotes you show little openness yourself, Adam. I think my "quotes" speak volumes. Maybe they don't cover all grounds but there's truth to be found in them. I was hoping you could figure them out by yourself. To further annoy you, let me throw upon you one more quote:Practice and experience (all forms of education) will lead to a bigger understanding and a wider appreciation.-Alex Cremers  ----------------Alex CremersSaying "there's truth to be found" I can go along with but the flip side is an implicit admission on your part that the rest is wrong or dishonest. My comments were directed to your first quote, in particular, and to the idea that its better to drop the pretension of deep wisdom and just describe things in the most honest way. I don't think I dismissed your comments at all - in fact, I said the validity of your second quote undermines your first quote. Anyway, I guess we're carrying on two different conversations so I'll leave it at that. I'll look forward to tomorrow's... ( :- Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McClane 1 Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 once you pop- you just can't stop.Hmmm...Pringles!Oh' date=' and 69, DUDES! I love that too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 480 Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 I love 69! Better not comment on that.- Marc, MB user no. 69 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251 Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 Pity, at your age you are nimble enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McClane 1 Posted December 19, 2004 Share Posted December 19, 2004 - Marc, MB user no. 69 Â LOL That's true! I've checked now!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKenLittle 6 Posted December 20, 2004 Share Posted December 20, 2004 I may be totally off my rocker but wasn't it Mancini that never really learned how to read music yet he wrote thousands of songs? or was it some other guy around that time.I think it is the great Irving Berlin, that you are thinking of, Ren. Berlin could not read or write music and could only play piano in the key of F. In fact he had a special keyboard built to his specifications that allowed him to transpose music into other keys.Mancini received his early education in music from his father, who was the flutist for the "Sons of Italy" band in West Aliquippa, PA. Later, after high school, he continued his education by listening to and transcribing arrangements from the Big Bands of the day. He formalized his education, studying in Pittsburgh with a private piano teacher, and with Max Adkins who taught him the basics of composition and arranging.In order to stay on topic, in my opinion, good song writers include, the above mentioned Henry Mancini and Johnny Mercer. John Williams (I happen to like most of his songs) Jerry Goldsmith, James Horner, say what you like, the song from Titanic while completely overplayed, is lovely. Carly Simon is one of the all time great American songwriters. As are Irving Berlin, Rodgers and Hammerstein, Jule Styne, Duke Ellington, John Lee Hooker and Muddy Waters. Great Canadian songwriters include Randy Bachman, Burton Cummings, Leonard Cohen, Alanis Morrisette and Luc Plamondon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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