Sandor 459 Posted January 1, 2005 Share Posted January 1, 2005 ...ever since I read Christian Clemmensen's review of Vangelis' Alexander over at Filmtracks I have been deeply intrigued by the score.I loved Vangelis' Mythodea (especially the BRILLIANT second movement) and a score that would continue that powerful sound had to be a part of my soundtrack collection.So, a few days ago in Rotterdam, I bought Vangelis' Alexander...There you have it! It's out in the open! I'm not ashamed of it! :oops: And I must say the third track called Titans is AMAZING! It's a great piece; something that I'd wish Call Of The Champions had been (love that piece too!) Other nice tracks are Across The Mountains and Eternal Alexander.But this score also reminded me of why I love Johnny's music so much. Vangelis' melodies are REALLY simple. Sometimes that fine. Conquest Of Paradise and Mythodea had their share of fairly simple thematic writing, but on those scores there was still magic happening.Titans is simple, but AMAZING (like I said). Probably any lover of good music will appreciate it. But on Across The Mountains and especially Eternal Alexander (although I still like them) Vangelis totally 'jumped the shark' (hate that term, but it seems to be popular with you kids nowadays). IT'S SOOO SIMPLE that it makes me believe any starting or mediocre composer could have written those melodies. I love the arrangments though.Roald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 2,924 Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 That's how I feel about Howard Shore's LotR scores.Lovely orchestrations,but...K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewdog1 50 Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Congrats Roald! Glad to see that you enjoy that soundtrack.One thing that Vangelis has going for him above any other composer out there is that he is the most lyrical in his writing. This definetly shows in Across the Mountains and Eternal Alexander.If you liked Titans, be sure to get his Voices album. A lot of Alexander can be seen as an extension of that album.Of course Vangelis is not as complicated in his writing like JW. That is his style and way of things. That makes him unique in that what is he writing is effective and moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 1,931 Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I loved the movie, but there's no way in hell I'm able to enjoy a track like Titans. It's an almost laughable track. I don't have any music skills whatsoever and I would never release a track that sounds so bad under my name.It's just embarassingly bad. Eternal Alexander is so-so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,285 Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 That's how I feel about Howard Shore's LotR scores.Lovely orchestrations,but...K.M.LOTR? Orchestrations? Only ROTK is saved...IS alexander score synth or orchestral? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 459 Posted January 2, 2005 Author Share Posted January 2, 2005 Thanks stewdog for that Voices-suggestion. I will definatly "check it out"!And although I find Across The Mountains and Eternal Alexander extremely simple, something has made me repeat them over and over again on my stereo. Titans is still my favorite though.About The Lord Of The Rings...I can't believe some have attached those scores to the term simple. Perhaps the Shire theme is simple (in fact back in 2001 I started a thread about that melody and it's simplicity), but all the other themes (and there are A LOT!) are extremely complex!Remember that melody first heard in the Fellowship where Gandalf catches the moth from mid air while he is on the tower at Isengard? That melody appears several times throughout the trilogy and it's extremely complex and beautiful.But there are so many: Rohan's theme, the Gondor theme, the music heard during the lightning of the beacons (arguably the best film music since Schindler's List), Evenstar...All very complex and fantastic. Roald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251 Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Remember that melody first heard in the Fellowship where Gandalf catches the moth from mid air while he is on the tower at Isengard? That melody appears several times throughout the trilogy and it's extremely complex and beautiful.That is an amazing theme, first started out like a kinda "nature" theme, but became a noble theme for the struggle of the desperate against the evil that outnumbers them (the Ents, the Rohirrim)I really LOVE the rendition of that theme when Theoden gives his speech at the fields of Pellenor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 480 Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Yeah, and it gets even better in the full version of that cue. Pity they cut the last bit off the album. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Docteur Qui 1,248 Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 Remember that melody first heard in the Fellowship where Gandalf catches the moth from mid air while he is on the tower at Isengard? That melody appears several times throughout the trilogy and it's extremely complex and beautiful.What's complex about it? It's a boy singing a melody. In the Last March of the Ents it's just a simple chord progression. Then why do I love it so much? What makes something complex, anyway? Is it the orchestration or a melody that is unpredictable and going in different directions?Rohan's themeThat's a bit more like it. I don't see why people complain about the Norwegian fiddle. It captures the characters and landscape perfectly.the Gondor themeWhy couldn't Shore have made a concert suite of this theme? It was just asking for one. "The King of the Golden Hal"l had one (well it finished the end credits, so it sorta did). Still, the track "Minas Tirith" was worth the price of the CD alone (along with the next track).the music heard during the lightning of the beacons (arguably the best film music since Schindler's List)"Let's not go nuts"While this was definitely a great achievement for Shore and it was brilliant and worked brilliantly in the movie, Williams has been providing spine-tingling counterpoints for years. Even after Schindler's List. I think that LotR is very simple in the orchestration department, no doubt because Shore did it himself, along with the composition of some 12+ hours of material for the trilogy, so you can hardly blame him. Still, I find myself skipping over a lot of dull underscore moments. With John (I know I shouldn't compare, but...) it's different. The thing that draws me to his music is not only the always brilliant themes, but the actual underscore is captivating and interesting more often than not. And that's not even in action scenes or romantic flourishes. It's something Shore needs to work on, without resorting to tied whole notes to fill in spaces. But when all is said and done I love the scores and I don't know exactly why yet.This is IMO, of course, as is all of my ramblings (of course it is, unless I gave the impression I had stolen someone else's mind and body and was trying to pass off my opinions as theirs, in which case you'd shout 'Hey you freaking idiot, what are you doing in that person's body!?'... I have my own fun...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 One reason Fellowship is my favorite LotR score is because it's so much tighter I think. There's usually something good going on, and all my favorite themes, save the major coming out of the Gondor theme, are introduced in that one.Two Towers can put anyone to sleep. It's got a few good moments, but 90% of it is some of the blandest, most boring underscore I've ever heard. And what happened to the Elvish music? In FotR the Rivendell and Lorien themes were amazing. But now there's just some solo female vocal in the Arwen scenes that's just so (again) bland and boring.RotK brings back some good stuff. The early Gondor cues are great (the beacons being a fav of everyone), and the final 30-40 minutes are awesome. But in between is quite a bit of so-soness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRuleOfThirds 0 Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 LotR sucks. Alexander sucks. Vangelis' Blade Runner rocks. Must watch/listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 9 Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 the music heard during the lightning of the beacons (arguably the best film music since Schindler's List)"Let's not go nuts"While this was definitely a great achievement for Shore and it was brilliant and worked brilliantly in the movie, Williams has been providing spine-tingling counterpoints for years. Even after Schindler's List. The highlight of all 3 scores, IMO (well, that and The Breaking of the fellowship, of course). Though the films version is really jarring and unsatisfying after the magnificent album version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 2,924 Posted January 3, 2005 Share Posted January 3, 2005 Most LotR cues lack the cohesiveness Williams cues have.So it's very easy to dissect your favourite moments of the LotR scores and edit them togheter to form a suite that sounds like a cue that might be in the movie somewhere.Everything seems to be in the same key,tone and tempo with long stretched out notes so one part of the score doesn't sound out of place if it's changed places.On the other hand,splitting a Williams cue in the middle to paste it onto something is almost impossible to do.I tried to make a Philosopher's Stone Suite using the OST and I gave up.I've often tried to make mini suites of my favourite parts of Williams scores but it's very hard.K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 459 Posted January 3, 2005 Author Share Posted January 3, 2005 In defense of Howard Shore and his The Lord Of The Rings epic scores:Shore is a master orchestrator. His earlier work for The Silence Of The Lambs or Se7en has often been described as "incomprehensible" or "impossibly complex, remarkable and detailed" (Paul Place, Gramophone). This certainly applies to The Lord Of The Rings in every regard. The depth of his trilogy scores is amazing. Roald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 JEEZ MAN DONT U KNO TAT WILLAMS IS THE ONLY KOMPOSER TO RIT GOOOD FILM SKORES?????????????!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,285 Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 In defense of Howard Shore and his The Lord Of The Rings epic scores:Shore is a master orchestrator. His earlier work for The Silence Of The Lambs or Se7en has often been described as "incomprehensible" or "impossibly complex, remarkable and detailed" (Paul Place, Gramophone). Â This certainly applies to The Lord Of The Rings in every regard. Â The depth of his trilogy scores is amazing. Â RoaldIf he is a master orchestrator, then he really was lazy when he made LOTR.I like the music, and after seeing the movies more times i find more orchestrations that i didnt know. But still, for 12 hours of movie, it is not enough, same for the lack of themes (there may many, but when we talk about recognisable/rememberable the list narrows). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 459 Posted January 6, 2005 Author Share Posted January 6, 2005 If he is a master orchestrator, then he really was lazy when he made LOTR.... for 12 hours of movie, it is not enough, same for the lack of themes (there may many, but when we talk about recognisable/rememberable the list narrows).It's so funny that I disagree with everything you say Maybe they released the films with an alternate soundtrack in Spain, I don't know. Like the Jerry Goldsmith/Tangerine Dream/Legend mix-up. It seems we listened to TOTALLY different music Roald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewdog1 50 Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 It seems we listened to TOTALLY different music  That happens a lot around here when it is someone not named John Williams. Funny how we can all agree on JW, yet differ so much on other composers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251 Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Maybe they released the films with an alternate soundtrack in Spain, I don't know. Like the Jerry Goldsmith/Tangerine Dream/Legend mix-up. It seems we listened to TOTALLY different music RoaldI know of at least 2 other Spaniards who share Luke's sentiment to some degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,285 Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 The first time i said clearly that i like the music anyway, and im bashed more than ever! (even with racist statements )Lets count the themes in The SW Movies and in LOTR. Both have almost the same lenght, and LOTR has many more main characters.STAR WARSMain themes:SW/LukeThe Force/ObiWanPrincess LeiaDarth Vader/Imperial MarchYodaHan Solo and the PrincessDroids version 1Jabba the HuttEmperor/SithEwoksLuke and LeiaDuel of the FatesJar JarAnakinThe Trade FederationAcross the StarsThe mistery (Kamino)EpIII theme (just ounting there will be one)Small/minor character/mood themes:Death Star/Empire in ANHRebel FanfareBoba FettBespin/LandoDroids version 2 (ROJ)Naboo moodTatooine moodCoruscant moodLOTRMain Themes:Prophecy theme/remembering historyShire/HobbitsRingIsengardMordorMordor version 2 (ROTK and this is just good orchestration)FellowshipRohanEntsGondorGollumInto the westMinor/mood themes:Rivendell elvesGaladriel elvesAnduril? May be Rivendell'sMoriaMoth/EaglesShelob'sSure there are more in LOTR but i think i got all the important ones. And dont tell me SW has more varioety of movies (since there are six), since just the OT has as many main themes as LOTR.The orchestrations may not be Williams' as shore does his, but thematically, Willimas is better, quality wise, its up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 459 Posted January 8, 2005 Author Share Posted January 8, 2005 To asume that the quality of a score can be based on the NUMBER of themes is ridiculous in my opinion. Are we talking about the movies of the scores? Star Wars is my favorite don't get me wrong, but The Lord Of The Rings are better made films. MUCH better! Roald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251 Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Are we talking about the OT or the prequels? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 459 Posted January 8, 2005 Author Share Posted January 8, 2005 Look, I consider the Star Wars story and the characters to be AMAZING; those aspects will always be my MY favorites. Purely cinematically speaking: Peter Jackson's direction is way superior to anything seen in Star Wars and the screenplays are a lot better. John Williams' music is by far my favorite film music ever and that will probably NEVER change.The Lord Of The Rings is my second favorite film series EVER! I love it. But I still love Star Wars more.Roald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewdog1 50 Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Talk about your thread drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,285 Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 To asume that the quality of a score can be based on the NUMBER of themes is ridiculous in my opinion. Â RoaldI never stated that, i said the quality was up to you.Its just that you laughed when i said that LOTR didnt have as many themes as it should have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 459 Posted January 12, 2005 Author Share Posted January 12, 2005 Its just that you laughed when i said that LOTR didnt have as many themes as it should have.Hmmm? I don't remember that...Roald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,285 Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 If he is a master orchestrator, then he really was lazy when he made LOTR.... for 12 hours of movie, it is not enough, same for the lack of themes (there may many, but when we talk about recognisable/rememberable the list narrows).It's so funny that I disagree with everything you say RoaldThere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_twinkle 44 Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 But there are so many: Rohan's theme, the Gondor theme, the music heard during the lightning of the beacons (arguably the best film music since Schindler's List), Evenstar...All very complex and fantastic. Â RoaldThe word "arguably" has never been used more appropriately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixie_twinkle 44 Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 LotR sucks. Â Alexander sucks. Â Vangelis' Blade Runner rocks. Â Must watch/listen.For someone who talks in grunts and incomplete sentences I must admit you have good taste in music! When will Vangelis' best movie score "Bitter Moon" be released in full? Unlike his distracting music for Alexander (a film so poor that the dodgy film score actually seems appropriate, unfortunately) the music for Bitter Moon is haunting in the extreme. It's impossible to imagine Bitter Moon without the dreamlike, slightly sinister underscore by Vangelis. The opening titles (Vangelis' Satie-like piano ostinato accompanying the shot of the sea through a ship's porthole) is one of the most effective film openings I've seen.P.S. No offence intended in my above comment TheRuleOfThirds. Sometimes grunting and farting is the best way to get a point across! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie 45 Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Funny how we can all agree on JW, yet differ so much on other composers. I wouldn't say we all agree on JW. Minority Report, anyone? In fact, I wonder if there's a correlation between the liking of such a score and the disliking of The Lord of the Rings scores or Alexander etc.Bowie - who likes most of Minority Report and dislikes most of The Lord of the Rings music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris ChrusherComix 27 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 My guilty pleasure is to be this MB's greatest Vince DiCola fan. And likely almost every MB's too! LOL (Well, Ricard loves his as well! )-ChrisPS- I also like Minority Report better than any LOTR. IMO, those movies were hurt by their scores, and I have long said that I wished that Williams tackled the LOTR franchise instead of POTTER, *ugh*.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 459 Posted January 14, 2005 Author Share Posted January 14, 2005 I wonder if in an alernate universe Howard Shore had scored Minority Report and John Williams had scored The Lord Of The Rings and the scores would be EXACTLY as they are now if people would still think the same. I think we would then regard The Lord Of The Rings as one of Williams' greatest achievements and Minority Report as one of the worst scores for a Spielberg film. Just my prediction. Roald Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris ChrusherComix 27 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 I agree with that prediction, one-sidedly. Yes, MR is one of Williams weaker scores (especially for Spielberg films), but I just like it for mainly because of the good action scoring (the opening sequece is the best part, and then it kind of fades after that, I think). And Shore could never have done what Williams COULD have done. Williams would have made epic thematically-driven scores... something that was wasted on Potter's weak characters and silly plotlines that bore me to no end. Potter's like a bad comic book that everybody loves for some reason. I'll never figure that one out. *sigh*I'll give Shore's LOTR another chance, someone is sending me more samples and another told me that the scores are more-or-less better fits for the books than the movies. I just haven't been hooked by what I heard so far, just too plain for me. We'll see. I just prefer the Star Wars prequel scores over Potter and LOTR at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morlock 9 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 You people are strange, MR is a brilliant, dynamic score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris ChrusherComix 27 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 I like MR, I'm not strange! :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 An I detecting a common theme here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,285 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Is your signature another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 480 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 George....Takei.....Bulk.Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Neil, do you have something to share with us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Neil, do you have something to share with us?It's your signature. You tell me.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Potter's like a bad comic book that everybody loves for some reason. I'll never figure that one out.That's quite possibly because you'll never read them.Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Neil, do you have something to share with us?It's your signature. You tell me.Don't blame Stefancos, he's not the one infatuated with George Takei's gargantuan wang.Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Don't blame Stefancos, he's not the one infatuated with George Takei's gargantuan wang.Then why is he the one that made a signature about it?Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 He only brought forth the feelings which you, for so many years, have repressed. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fommes 126 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 I think Neil is on to something here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,285 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Always knew the wonder woman avatar was some undercover j/k sorry neil i didnt wanted to start such debate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 2,924 Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 An I detecting a common theme here?Yes,Asian women are the salvation of internet geeks.K.M, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,285 Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 or men...Neil , i coundt help it!sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 2,924 Posted January 15, 2005 Share Posted January 15, 2005 I'll give Shore's LOTR another chance, someone is sending me more samples and another told me that the scores are more-or-less better fits for the books than the movies. .I sent you a c.d. with LotR music a while back,I even went through the trouble of selecting the best cues and making suites.Look in your pile of unlistened to trade crdsK.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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