Are Part III's bad?

[fommes 153]

unfortunately, The Tsunami will one play on the Eastern Seaboard of the US, and its boxoffice returns will be the biggest ever.!!!!!  

'Course like all sequels, this one will actually be called MegaTsunami, and it will bigger and badder.  

It will come from the La Palma Island landslide.

Fellers, please stick to the topic. It's not about Part IIIs, not Part IIs.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Fellers, please stick to the topic. It's not about Part IIIs, not Part IIs.

Then what is it about?

- Marc

[JoeinAR 1,949]

unfortunately, The Tsunami will one play on the Eastern Seaboard of the US, and its boxoffice returns will be the biggest ever.!!!!!  

'Course like all sequels, this one will actually be called MegaTsunami, and it will bigger and badder.  

It will come from the La Palma Island landslide.

Fellers, please stick to the topic. It's not about Part IIIs, not Part IIs.

part 1 was Krakatoa, so this is part III.

Joe, hoping that one never gets made.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

If Vader was not Lukes father and was not redeemed at the end, all the the signficance of the saga would be lost, IMHO. I cannot conceive the SW saga without Vader's redemption, it just doesn't make any sense to me...the plot loses gravitas.

Romão, who loves ROTJ.

I disagree, Vader never being redeemed only highlights the difference in the choices he and Luke made.

One said yes the other said no.

The one who said yes, started a galaxtic war, the one who said no, ended it.

[igor 0]

Why not look at Vader's story as a father son thing instead of only the tyrrant he was? Something of a galactic Godfather. I never heard people accusing Al Pacino's character of being false. Why don't you just accept what is given to us in the movies?? I just want to know why, and mentioning the mass murderer etc etc... is simply not enough, me thinks. I wonder what some people over here would think of a film called Downfall. It is a recent German movie on Hitler's final days. i can say that the subject matter is ultimately disturbing, not because it is Hitler, but because what there was behind Hitler.

I just want to know: Why NO for redemption?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm sorry, but that's a bad comparison.

al Pacino is the central figure in the Godfather films, the main story of that whole saga was about Michael Corleone, how he consolidates power and how he tries to make amands with the past.

In SW and TESB, Vader is NOT the central figure, he is the main villian.

His redemtion was never the point of SW and TESB, and was only tagged on for some reason on ROTJ.

If the whole SW saga is indeed about the downfall and redemtion of Anakin Skywalker, then SW and TESB just do not make sense.

[Justin 2]

That's, obviously, why they are the worst films.

Please try and keep up, Steef.

Justin

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I just want to know: Why NO for redemption?

why, because he was a mass murderer, he was responsible for the destruction of an entire planet. He murder men, women, and CHILDREN. Up until moments of his redemption, he was willing to turn his own daughter to the dark side.

This was a man unworthy of redemption.

Just because he saved his son from the Emperor doesn't even begin to balance the scales.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

That...and because it makes Vader a wuss!

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

I just want to know: Why NO for redemption?

Just because he saved his son from the Emperor doesn't even begin to balance the scales.

He saved many more than he killed with that simple move.

[Romão 2,274]

SW and ESB even make the redemption angle all the more moving.

[igor 0]

I also know that ROTS and the prequels will add to that

[igor 0]

I think not that Vader is the main evil character. The Emperor is. Now taht makes a diference. Couple that with the prequels' story which is in fact Vader's story, one can say that Vader now becomes more of a central character in the OT. He takes a back seat as his son goes up the same path until both meet in ROTJ. As for the point about Corleone, it is that he never wanted to do this in the first place. He had to do this for the family. ..

Moreover, the more I watch the OT now the prequels are almost done, the less I feel Vader as evil in the sense that he absolutely needs to be terminated(although he does remain evil and even though I loved the redemption part before the OT came out) and the more I feel a certain brooding sadness about him each time he makes a screen appearance. I think wussy or not is beyond the point due to the build up of the story.

Moreover SW and TESB make sense. They are the story of the son who goes on the same path as his father. This is what mirrors are, and that is what is good about SW's form. You can watch it as two trilogies or one saga and it would make sense.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I think not that Vader is the main evil character. The Emperor is. Now taht makes a diference.

The Emporer was only mentioned in SW.

Tarkin was the highest ranking villian, but Vader was his evil luitenant.

He does all the killing, he even kills Ben.

In TESB Vader is the MAIN villian, hunting down the Rebels, disposing of those who fail to obey his orders, killing, bribing, blackmaling.

Yes there is a 2 minute scene were he converes with the Emperor, but Vader pretty much seems to use his own judgement thoughout most of the film.

He even reveals his plans to kill and replace the Emperor (now were did THAT plotline go!)

For me, saying Vader redemption is acceptable because the Emperor was more even is the same as saying Nazi architect Albert Speer's full confession at Nurenberg can be seen as a full redemption for his crimes, just because Hitler was really more evil.

[igor 0]

Not acceptable, but he did make an about turn in face of the greater evil, not in front of a trial. And it is true SW is ultimately the Father/Son Anakin?luke story, but the prequels make the Emperor the big guy. As for his plotting and all of that, it is part of the dark side where one is selfish and wants all the power and so on.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And it is true SW is ultimately the Father/Son Anakin?luke story,

No, SW was about a boy, a girl...and a Universe!

[Lurker 5]

And it is true SW is ultimately the Father/Son Anakin?luke story

What Star Wars are you watching? I watched the movie the other night and never got the sense of that at all.

ROTJ is the sequel to Empire Strikes Back from some weird bizarro universe. This world wasn't meant to see it. Some other parallel universe got our far superior ROTJ, and that is sad. Nothing in the ROTJ we have here seems to fit in with the first two films. The story takes odd turns that weren't even hinted at in previous films. Luke and Leia are brother and sister? Where the hell did that come from? Watching Star Wars and Empire, it's clear that those two movies were not about the life and death of Darth Vader, but Jedi shifted all of that. Jedi set up the prequels, the prequels did not set up the later films. Everything in the prequels is a direct result of Jedi and Jedi doesn't mesh with Star Wars and Empire.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

Nothing in the ROTJ we have here seems to fit in with the first two films.  The story takes odd turns that weren't even hinted at in previous films.  Luke and Leia are brother and sister?  Where the hell did that come from?  Watching Star Wars and Empire, it's clear that those two movies were not about the life and death of Darth Vader, but Jedi shifted all of that.  Jedi set up the prequels, the prequels did not set up the later films.  Everything in the prequels is a direct result of Jedi and Jedi doesn't mesh with Star Wars and Empire.

Neil

- In SW Leia was asked by her father to go to Tatooine in search for Obi Wan, but she was really there to get Luke, who should had been by then trained by Obi Wan.

- Since SW Vader had been searching for Luke, even before the Emperor said him to do so.

- Yoda saying there is another

- Luke and Leia FORCE-binded with either having great Jedi training must be something

Those are things lucas used for his advantage, not making the turn of things in ROJ unbelievable as you say. Note than im not saying he had those plots when he started writing SW, but i really think all we see in ESB was meant to conclude in ROJ (arent you the major banner stating ROJ is the ending of ESB? )

Long Live ROJ!

[igor 0]

No need to add to that. Moreover some accuse of Lucas making the story up as it went along. Well even if this were true, is that not how stories are imagined??? Yes they are

[Adam 1]

To me, the biggest hint at the Luke/Leia connection in retrospect was the scene in TESB where Luke calls out to Leia and we get a particularly mythological rendition of the force theme and Leia says to turn around the ship.

- Adam

[King Mark 3,626]

Han Solo from Empire doesn't mesh with Han Solo from Star Wars.In Star Wars he's very arrogant,he has somekind of tough New York accent,every time he's on screen he's a jerk,overbearing and irratating.You don't really root for him and you'd beat him up if you had the chance.In Empire he's suddenly very different,he's more like a cool, romantic,smooth talking hero all of a sudden, like Indiana Jones.In Jedi,Han is just a joke,he acts like a sissy all the time,and is more or less useless.

[A24 4,327]

Han Solo from Empire doesn't mesh with Han Solo from Star Wars.In Star Wars he's very arrogant,he has somekind of tough New York accent,every time he's on screen he's a jerk,overbearing and irratating.You don't really root for him and you'd beat him up if you had the chance.In Empire he's suddenly very different,he's more like a cool, romantic,smooth talking hero all of a sudden, like Indiana Jones.In Jedi,Han is just a joke,he acts like a sissy all the time,and is more or less useless.

Your analysis is correct.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

But Han's character in ESB is in line with his change at the end of ANH, whereas the Han in RotJ seems to have been replaced with one from a poor soap opera.

[A24 4,327]

But Han's character in ESB is in line with his change at the end of ANH, whereas the Han in RotJ seems to have been replaced with one from a poor soap opera.

Yes, hasty and hurried the movie is.

Yoda was another character who got brushed off in ROTJ. Mmmm, terrible film-making, lousy storytelling his death scene is. Very disrespectful, do you not agree? Mmmm?

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Agree I do, yet, terrible, I would call it not.

- Marc, thinking, talk like Yoda, fun it is, mmm?

[igor 0]

He serves his purpose. Isn't that enough? More Yoda would have been a waste of time. As for Han, I don't know what is so annoying about him in ROTJ.

[igor 0]

And to answer the general question. i don't think Part threes of good trilogies are bad. I just think that, first, people want to experience the freshness of the first movie again, and, second, they have preconceived notions of how the particular trilogy in question should end, and when neither happens, it becomes a disappointment. I usually hear that the first part is usually the best because it shocked and so on and so forth. well why can't some people pay closer attention and follow the logic of the story till part three. I mean, I think Matrix three concludes the series wonderfully, but many people think that the first was the best and the rest rubbish. Well I believe that at some point in the following films, they just went off track, or that, simply put,they wanted to experience the coolness of Neo again. well that is just impossible. I just go what the story teller takes me, and if the ensuing version makes sense, then: why not?

moreover, why compare films in a trilogy up to the point one would think we are dealing with three completely disconnected movies? A trilogy is one story cut into three parts so that you don't crack your back. So, to me, 2 better than one or whatever is nonsense. I prefer talking about 2 complees what one started in a sensible way.

[A24 4,327]

He serves his purpose. Isn't that enough?

That's no reason to brush him off. We all knew Yoda would die in ROTJ but nobody expected it would be so uninspired and dull: "Hey Yoda, I'm back. Oh, are you dying? What? Another "one"? It's Leia, isn't it! Well, goodbye!" That's how rushed it felt to me.

Yoda deserved a better script. The death of Jonathan Kent in Superman The Movie didn't waste much time either and yet I truly felt Clark's mentor and father had passed away.

Igor, not everything in the Star Wars movies is brilliant. You seem to defend even the worst scenes, which is not very realistic.

---------------

Alex Cremers

[Justin 2]

Igor, not everything in the Star Wars movies is brilliant. You seem to defend even the worst scenes, which is not very realistic.

Yeah. I mean that's Luke's job, man.

Justin

[igor 0]

Well Of course that not everything is brilliant, but we seem to disagree on what is a bad scene or not that's all. The thing is that you accuse the prequels of having 'defects' one can easily attribute to the OT if he/she looked harder. When you said that the mythology is forced upon us, I immediately remembered a group of friends who after watching ep. 4 kept commenting on the FORCE. Now, they were not annoyed but one can notice a conspicuous effort to introduce the mythological aspect of the story. Ben repeats it and repeats, so does Vader and so on. Is this a defect? NO, yet the prequels seem to get everything going against them no matter what. Is THAT realistic?

Well, Justin, now Luke can rest a bit .

[igor 0]

as for Yoda being rushed. Isn't Luke's training rushed? Isn't ANH rushed. suddenly, a farmboy is suddenly ana ce pilot? Aren't all the stories rushed from that point of view? I do understand what you mean, and, well, maybe Yoda could have appeared more, but he DID his part. By ROTJ Yoda feels like a mentor but Luke already seems as an equal next to him. What more could you want? I know that many including myself find the Yoda scene great, and this is the style of these movies.

[King Mark 3,626]

But Han's character in ESB is in line with his change at the end of ANH, whereas the Han in RotJ seems to have been replaced with one from a poor soap opera.

Both Hans in ANH and ESB are much better than the RotJ Han.But I disagree that his character in ESB is a natural extension of his character in ANH.Even if he did a good action by helping Luke destroy the deathstar,it wouldn't change his whole personality .

But in ESB he is more the lead character and the audience has to root for him more,so I guess they had to remove the selfish jerk Han from ANH.

K.M.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

We all knew Yoda would die in ROTJ

We did? How's that?

[A24 4,327]

I know that many including myself find the Yoda scene great, and this is the style of these movies.

Voila! That's what I mean. Even this scene is "great" (not just good but GREAT, like it's almost impossible to improve on it). You simply don't see or feel that it's "rushed". To you it is as "rushed" like any other scene. You think it's the style of Star Wars. Well, Igor, it's not. In Star Wars or Empire, the pace is (was) high but not rushed. There's a big difference there.

And no, Luke's training in EBS doesn't feel like "let's get it over with". I don't know why you think that. I have a feeling the more SW gets critiqued, the more you'll defend it.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[A24 4,327]

We all knew Yoda would die in ROTJ

We did? How's that?

Well, those of us who were "around" knew. It was no secret. It was talked about in magazines well before the movie came out.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Ah, gotcha.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

as for Yoda being rushed. Isn't Luke's training rushed? Isn't ANH rushed. suddenly, a farmboy is suddenly ana ce pilot? Aren't all the stories rushed from that point of view? I do understand what you mean, and, well, maybe Yoda could have appeared more, but he DID his part. By ROTJ Yoda feels like a mentor but Luke already seems as an equal next to him. What more could you want? I know that many including myself find the Yoda scene great, and this is the style of these movies.

yes Luke's training is rushed, but it has to be, but your illogical point about ANH rushed, Star Wars isn't rushed, second Luke was a great pilot, that whole plotline was explained and set up in Star Wars.

Star Wars is the best of all these films because its a one shot deal. There were no sequels planned.

The film was expected to be a failure.

as for Luke seeming like an equal to Yoda, give me a break. The Yoda scenes were not worthy of his character.

[A24 4,327]

Joe, it didn't feel rushed because they even waited before they fully exposed Yoda to the public. They didn't go straight to the heart of the matter. It all happened gradually. Yoda's scene in ROTJ they went straight to "B" while skipping "A". I think it's one of the film's major mistakes. I rank it highly on the "50 reasons why Jedi sucks" list. Mmm, I wonder if the list even mentions it. If it's not on it, then there are 51 reasons from now on!

----------------

Alex Cremers

[JoeinAR 1,949]

well in my version of Jedi, whenever I get around to putting it on this board, Yoda doesn't even die.

[Justin 2]

He duels with the emperor, I knew it.

Justin

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Justin, do you remember ever reading the novelization of ROTJ, in that the emperor had never battled Yoda,

but wanted to, which would discount everything we've seen in the prequels and are about to see in ROTS.

but yes in an indirect way you are correct, I would have Yoda and the Emperor battle, but never with light sabers.

[igor 0]

I do agree with Joe that the first star wars woks on its own. But we all know why. We can't convince you to like the sequels, and I feel you are losing. And Joe, why would the Emperor fight Yoda with the Luke/Vader story fleshing out, irrespective of the point of what you think about the outcome?

Voila! That's what I mean. Even this scene is "great" (not just good but GREAT, like it's almost impossible to improve on it). You simply don't see or feel that it's "rushed". To you it is as "rushed" like any other scene. You think it's the style of Star Wars. Well, Igor, it's not. In Star Wars or Empire, the pace is (was) high but not rushed. There's a big difference there.

And no, Luke's training in EBS doesn't feel like "let's get it over with". I don't know why you think that. I have a feeling the more SW gets critiqued, the more you'll defend it.

Well Alex, I guess we disagree on what is great or rushed in star wars, that is the main difference. Of course Star Wars Episode 4 is not rushed. I also do NOT think that the training sequence is rushed nor that Luke's skills are forced upon us. What I am saying is that what you accuse ROTJ or sometimes the prequels of being can apply anywhere in starwars. In a way you are criticizing star wars for being star wars. Look, I already said that I agree that more time could have been given to Yoda, but I still believe that what was there is necessary. What more would you have proposed? Would it work in the big picture? Would it be necessary?

Let me give you an example: some complain that the prequels are not as dark as desired till now. Well, if TPM was already dark, what would be left for ROTS? What is the point of starting a story from the middle? It is unnecessary, worse even, undesired. In the same vein, I think that adding more to Yoda would be useless. I can imagine you accusing that taking things slower would be possible if there were less things to stuff in the movie, but, ROTJ is the climax for all characters, from the droids to Luke. How better can I explain that? Ultimately it is your choice.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

What is the point of starting a story from the middle? It is unnecessary, worse even, undesired.

Isn't that just what Lucas did?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

HA!.

Ender really nailed you on that one!

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

Igor, not everything in the Star Wars movies is brilliant. You seem to defend even the worst scenes, which is not very realistic.

Yeah. I mean that's Luke's job, man.

Justin

hah, like if i had to defend every shit that was thrown out in the OT.

Now seriously, i think i stoped saying SW is the greatest thing ever a long time ago. I just defend it when neccesary (light-dark issues, to keep the balance)

Yoda's death is no way realistic. HIS CLOTHES FADE OUT! COME ON!

[igor 0]

What is the point of starting a story from the middle? It is unnecessary, worse even, undesired.

Isn't that just what Lucas did?

Right... that is what he did, so? doesn't change that the middle occurs in the middle and not the beginning. I DO know that he made a good job making the 6 films flow together, I have tried it (well they are still 5 films, and they already work together except for some points to be explained in ep.3), and when the whole saga comes out, ANH will be in the middle of the saga. The fact that he filmed ANH first is another issue and there is a whole explanation according to Lucas as to why he did that, so no need to repeat that. Moreover, as i said before, the saga can also work as two different trilogies that end in opposing sides. The abundant mirrors and symmetry shows that clearly.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

a whole explanation according to Lucas

There's your logic hole.

[igor 0]

what LOGIC hole? didn''t you read what comes before that? You want me to actually explain this again? What has logic to do with that?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Lucas has pulled this kind of explanations from somewhere before. ANH did not become the middle of the story until the outline of the nine-film saga was written - after its release, before ESB was released. Call me stubborn or not, I just don't believe Lucas on this.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

I just believe he had the main story outlined. no more.

The subplots, characters and so were made between movies.