Okay. Williams' "rip-offs." What are they?

[Bowie 45]

All this talk about Williams "lifting" musical motives and stealing rhythmic and harmonic gestures from romantic composers (et al) makes me want to listen to them all and make up my own mind.

So far I've heard:

a) Jaws/two-note motive = Dvorak/Symphony 9/Mvt 4/Allegro Con Fuoco/opening notes (identical)

B) A.I./The Mecha World = Steve Reich/Music for 18 Musicians/general percussive minimalism (deliberately similar)

Please, similarly list all the "similarities" that Williams' detractors cite. So that we less-aware fans can comfortably decide for ourselves what all the fuss is about, and presumably accept it and move on. Williams is obviously a genius at replicating previous composers, but I just would like to know and hear to what degree he is actually replicating, for myself. Thanks.

[Melange 446]

presumably accept it and move on.

Why not just move on anyway? I've noticed similaritys in his work to some Classical Pieces on occasions. But i dont think it's anything worth getting concerned about or discussing. I think some people take it all way too seriously.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The ending of Mars, Bringer Of War from The Planets.

Williams pretty much copied it for the scene in Star Wars when the blockade runner and the Imperial Cruiser appear.

[Marian Schedenig 8,179]

Mars also features in the Death Star destruction music. Stravinsky's Sacre du printemps in the Tatooine music. Perhaps Dvorak's 9th in Throne Room. And I believe I've heard short Desert Chase-like phrases in Shostakovich's Hamlet.

Marian - who thinks bits of AI sound John Adams-like.

[Melange 446]

Oh alright.

"Making the plane" from "Home Alone"

...is a massive ripoff of "Russian Dance" from the Nutcracker.

[SturgisPodmore 0]

...which it is meant to be.

"Immigration" or something like that on American Journey sounds like "The Land Race" from Far and Away.

This might be intentional though, given that Joseph and Shannon were, in fact, immigrating.

~Sturgis

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

The ending of Mars, Bringer Of War from The Planets.

Williams pretty much copied it for the scene in Star Wars when the blockade runner and the Imperial Cruiser appear.

I agree with it. I dont see the Death Star blown up in there.

Sturgis, American yourney is mix of americana scores john has done. There is jim's new life (EOS), the patriot, Far and away... and as you say, I think it was intentional...

My sister says she heard a waltz that was almost equal to one of HP themes (Hedwigs i think). She said when she heard it 'oh harry potter' and it was not... But i have never heard of it here so...

We could speak about horner though, the thread would be more tasty (and long)

[SturgisPodmore 0]

Schindler's List = Enemy at the Gates.

~Sturgis

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Sturgis, and Luke.

Any chance we can keep this topic serious?

It's actually interesting.

To their credit, on the hornershrine they have a special section that deals with the question of ripp-offs.

We might do well to have at least one serious thread that deals with the issue.

[Falstaft 2,132]

In general, I think it's unfair to call all similarities in Williams w/ other composers "rip-offs." Sometimes, a musical idea is so simple and obvious that the original composer can't lay ownership to it. This is how I feel about Dvorak's 9th and Jaws. Anyone who says JW unscrupulously tapped Dvorak for the Shark Motif should learn how basic the interval of a minor 2nd is. The similarity is superficial, that's all.

On the other hand, some of Williams' similarities w/ other composers cannot be dismissed as simple or accidental. Many of them are undoubtedly the fault of the temp-track, like the oft-cited Mars & Rite references in Star Wars. It's interesting how infrequently you hear people discuss the equally profound similarities in Star Wars w/ the film music of Walton or even Korngold, compared to the Holst or Stravinsky stuff... Evidence I think that the people who dismiss JW on the basis of these criticisms perhaps doesn't know as much as they think.

When I listen to the Stored Memories cue from AI, I hear an obvious influence from Gorecki (listen to the 2nd mvt of his 3rd symphony...gorgeous!). But then again, I prefer William's take on it! Same way w/ E.T. and Hanson's Romantic Symphony. JW can definitely be a compositional chameleon, but the results of his various styles often sound better than the original sources to me. Go fig, I am a JWfan.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

I was just suggesting, never meant to convert the thread

[SturgisPodmore 0]

Sturgis, and Luke.

Any chance we can keep this topic serious?

:oops: Okay.

The blatent Psycho use in A New Hope when the Stormtroopers have just serched the Millenium Falcon and Han and Luke and Leia and Chewbaka and Obi-Wan emerge from the floor. I can't remember if this was intentional or accidental.

~Sturgis

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

JW can definitely a compositional chameleon.

Giacchino is the Next Williams then.

Settled

j/k

[Falstaft 2,132]

The blatent Psycho use in A New Hope when the Stormtroopers have just serched the Millenium Falcon and Han and Luke and Leia and Chewbaka and Obi-Wan emerge from the floor.  I can't remember if this was intentional or accidental.

You mean the 3-note low string line? Sounds pretty accidental, but I see where you're coming from. Of all the Star Wars (1 & 2 as well), ANH probably has the most outside influences.

[Saxbabe 28]

"Quidditch, Third Year" owes a HUGE debt to the "Finale" (4th mvmt) of Shostakovich's 5th Symphony (the first two minutes esp.) - the galloping rhythms, the strings carrying the melody, the tone, the key.

One reason that cue is FABULOUS. Nothing wrong with that at all.

And...I got Attack of the Clones recently, and I think JW must have been recalling the "Finale" (Love Theme sections) somewhat when he wrote "Buckbeak's Flight".

The pace, the coasting flying feeling, the melody direction (steadily up), the broken chords, the lyrical singing quality, the under accompaniment of repeated notes in the brass, and especially the swells.

I had a mental picture of Harry flinging his arms out wide a couple of times.

I think it's great, I totally love AOTC. Unique score. Most especially like the cool percussion and Love Theme parts.

Greta

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

"Quidditch, Third Year" owes a HUGE debt to the "Finale" (4th mvmt) of Shostakovich's 5th Symphony (the first two minutes esp.) - the galloping rhythms, the strings carrying the melody, the tone, the key.

The brass theme in that cue has been used before by Jay Chattaway for his opening cue to the Star Trek: Voyager episode Scorpion part II

[jgraves 0]

"Arrival of Tink" or any of the flying around stuff from Hook (aka busy ww and str) is pretty much a direct study of Stravinsky's The Firebird, but in a good way! And I say "study," because that's exactly whay he did, and applied it in a very sophisticated way to sync up with the film. Speaking of studying...

Having literally run into Williams the morning after a concert in DC, I looked down to see him pouring over The Planets with a red sharpie while drinking coffee. Just sitting in the guest lounge, hanging out and studying voice leading and orchestration. LIKE HE NEEDS TO! But that is why he is so wonderful at what he does. He's constantly striving to better himself. When I told him I couldn't wait for the HP music (this was a while ago), he simply replied, "I'll do my best," as if to infer he probably wouldn't be able to match my level of expectation.

What an amazing person!

BTW, he was looking at Juputer, especially a brass section, lots of red ink, circles, arrows for voice leading, etc...

Jason

[Marian Schedenig 8,179]

I agree with it. I dont see the Death Star blown up in there.

Mars is used twice in ANH. Once at the beginning, and again in the Yavin battle. The latter is reminiscent of Holst, but does stand alone quite well. Horner copied the Williams bit for Aliens, overstretching the climax...his version doesn't stand alone very well in my opinion.

There's also Schindler's Workforce, which sounds remarkably reminiscent of Wojciech Kilar's Exodus - which was actually used in the movie's trailer.

Marian - who never heard DSCH 5 in Quidditch....must go check.

[jgraves 0]

There was also a thing on NPR about 5 years ago, making references to film composers and the classical pieces they rip off, and I mean RIP off. Among them was Goldenthal's "Meet Joe Black" and some stuff from Horner and New World Symphony (duh).

My heart broke when they listed ET (it was on their website with audio clips), and had a file of some piano trio, can't remember who wrote it, that pretty much had the main theme note-for-note with a few rhythmic changes in the melody. But chord-wise and melody-wise an obvious rip.

Also the Tatooine music from ANH with something from Stravinsky, maybe Rite of Spring? It was embarassingly close.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

The latter is reminiscent of Holst, but does stand alone quite well.

That must be why i cannot 'hear' it.

I just think it has the same timpani (instrument)

You cant make more sounds with those...

[Falstaft 2,132]

Having literally run into Williams the morning after a concert in DC, I looked down to see him pouring over The Planets with a red sharpie while drinking coffee.  Just sitting in the guest lounge, hanging out and studying voice leading and orchestration.  LIKE HE NEEDS TO!  But that is why he is so wonderful at what he does.  He's constantly striving to better himself.  When I told him I couldn't wait for the HP music (this was a while ago), he simply replied, "I'll do my best," as if to infer he probably wouldn't be able to match my level of expectation.

Your story totally made my day! Because this is the same kind of thing I'm doing as a student right now!

[SturgisPodmore 0]

My heart broke when they listed ET (it was on their website with audio clips), and had a file of some piano trio, can't remember who wrote it, that pretty much had the main theme note-for-note with a few rhythmic changes in the melody.  But chord-wise and melody-wise an obvious rip.  

Wait, E.T. was a rip or that piano trio was a rip of E.T.?

~Sturgis

[OrchDork 0]

In response to the E.T./piano trio thing...

I'm studying composition in college right now, and, in Williams defense, I have to say that there is A LOT of music out there. And I'm sure he has listened to and studied a bunch of it. But there might be stuff that he's heard maybe only once or twice and never studied. My point is, maybe he thought the theme was completely his original material, and then later discovered (or not, who knows) that it actually came from somewhere else. That happened to me once... I was composing a piece for orchestra (this was back in high school), and I was at the piano, noodling around, trying to find something I liked, and I came across this four-measure idea that I loved. I thought to myself, 'wow this is awesome, I'm putting this in my piece!' Later, however, I discovered that those four measures were almost identical to a passage of music from the movie "Hook" (towards the end of the film, when Hook and Peter are dueling). The thing that's the killer though, is that, at that time, I did not own the soundtrack (the music I "copied" isn't even on the soundtrack anyway), and I had only seen the movie maybe once or twice before, when I was a young kid. So I think it was a coincidence (though a little odd) that the music I wrote was also in Williams' "Hook" score.

Also, it seems to me, from interviews and things I've seen/read about Williams, I don't think he would ever actually "rip-off" another composer's work. Apparently, considering what jgraves wrote, the man studies scores all the time. He studies scores to keep learning more, not to learn how to "rip-off" the composer/piece. I think, in Williams case, it's more like he, as someone once said in another thread, pays homage or references other composers/works.

Just my thoughts...

[ecurbh 0]

At 1:58 in "The Battle of Endor III" from ROTJ, there are the same four opening notes from The Planets' "Uranus, the Magician".

[jgraves 0]

The flying theme from ET was a direct lift from the Piano Trio. I think it may have been a Brahms piece. It had the same melodic rhythm, but the notes went from the perfect fifth leap (the first two notes) and instead of going down, the rest of the notes went up. Same rhythm, contrary motion. But each phrase went higher and higher, just like the score. Same leaps in the first two notes of each phrase. EXACTLY the same.

Believe me, no one would want to deny it more than I. This is one of my favorite pieces we're talking about! But the way they had it set up you listened to the classical piece first, and I immediately recognized it as ET, even though it was Brahms.

My heart broke when they listed ET (it was on their website with audio clips), and had a file of some piano trio, can't remember who wrote it, that pretty much had the main theme note-for-note with a few rhythmic changes in the melody.  But chord-wise and melody-wise an obvious rip.  8O

Wait, E.T. was a rip or that piano trio was a rip of E.T.?

~Sturgis

[David Coscina 3]

When I listen to the Stored Memories cue from AI, I hear an obvious influence from Gorecki (listen to the 2nd mvt of his 3rd symphony...gorgeous!).

Yes! And I thought I was the only one who caught that! But I never thought of Williams as ripping it off. It's more evocative of Gorecki's piece than a direct lift. And his works so well in the context of the film, as well as on its own.

Good catch!

[David Coscina 3]

double post

[Marian Schedenig 8,179]

jgraves: Meet Joe Black is by Thomas Newman, not Goldenthal.

That must be why i cannot 'hear' it.

I just think it has the same timpani (instrument)

You cant make more sounds with those...

You can. Particularly Williams, who has done some of the best timpani writing I know. Just listen to the timpani soli in Battle of Yavin and The Desert Chase, or to the timpani in The Football Game from Sleepers. Anyway, the Holst bit I was referring is just the typical Mars tutti ostinato. Heard just when the Death Star blows up.

Marian - listening to RVW's London Symphony, a small bit of which was ripped of by De Meij for his LOTR symphony.

[jgraves 0]

jgraves: Meet Joe Black is by Thomas Newman, not Goldenthal.

Doh! I stand corrected. I don't have the score. A thousand apologies!

:oops:

[Bowie 45]

Well I haven't been able to find the piano trio in question yet - but so far everything seems to be just general similarity rather than direct blatant plagiarism, except the Uranus/Battle of Hoth III thing, which to me seems like a deliberate quote, judging by the scene it was used for. I mean, why on Earth would he feel compelled to secretly steal those four barely-distinct notes for a toss-away musical "threat"? If it was the main Battle motive, then, PERHAPS it was intentional plagiarism, but even then, most likely just a deliberate passing quotation acknowledging prior greats.

[stewdog1 50]

As far as ripping-off, I could care less. I don't listen to classical music much, but if I did, then I still wouldn't care.

Now if a someone sues JW for this, then I will care.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Why the sad face? You like the Flying theme, don't you? So what if it's more than a little bit similar to a piano trio? It works in the movie and is brilliant by itself.

By the way, why is it when Williams does rip-off someone it's always in a good way? Whats a rip-off in a bad way? Does every composer but Williams do this?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

A couple that have already been mentioned, and a few new ones:

The music for the droids wandering around on Tattoine is straight out of the opening to part two of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring.

The music from E.T. Adventures on Earth is based heavily on the finale from Hanson's Romantic Symphony (#2). Even the overall form of the Adventure follows the Hanson symphony.

The staccato orchestral chords leading up to the Death Star explosion in Star Wars are strongly based on the ending of Mars: Bringer of War from Holst's Planets. (Stefancos has already mentioned this, just agreeing with him).

The head-motive from the love theme from Superman is taken from Strauss' Death and Transfiguration.

There are two references to Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker in Home Alone. The Russian Dance is used as the basis for the "missing the plane" music, and the Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy used as the inspiration for the opening celesta music, right down to the key of e-minor! This was intentional on Williams' part. He always references Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy when he wants us to think of magic or Christmas. Other e-minor celesta themes occur in Hook, and of course Harry Potter.

Every composer rips off his predecessors and peers. Williams just gets attacked more for it because A: more people hear his music, and B: many serious musicians resent his success and wealth, and see his more obvious rip-offs as an easy target for attack. People don't attack Mahler the same way for ripping off both Brahms AND Beethoven in his third symphony. Interesting that...

[Hlao-roo 389]

Plagiarism makes me happy. We should all do it freely.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I don't listen to classical music, so I wouldn't have a clue what John Williams has "ripped off". I know he's ripped himself off though, the only example I've noticed is "Across The Stars" sounding just like Hook and Nixon, which doesn't really bother me that much anyway.

[Incanus 5,713]

As we are talking about these "rip-offs" should pause and considerate the fact that many movies like Star Wars had a temp track that is a kind of indicator for the composer what kind of music to write. This helpful technique has been around for ever and has affected the style of the music written for many films. As I have listened Williams much more than other film composers or any composers for that matter and I have noticed these similarities compared to some classical pieces and how they have affected Williams' scores. Star Wars score e.g. has the feeling of Holst's Planets mainly because Lucas used very much of this orchestral work for the temp track before Williams was ever hired since he believed there was no one suitable to compose new music for the movie(until he met Spielberg who recommended Williams). Jaws theme is very similar to beginning of Dvorak's 9th Symhony (about for those 5 first seconds). Williams does those Hermannesque rising falling figures quite often also.

The Home Alone Making the Plane cue is an obvious nod to the Nutcracker's Russian Dance but in this case intentional. I don't defend Williams(as it very strongly may seem so) for rip-offs he might have done but I want to point out that not all music that seems to have been lifted from another source is done for the reasons of unimaginative laziness but for stylistic reasons.

As we are discussing about Williams I do not list other composers' "rip-offs" here.

And the more music you hear the harder it is not to find something familiar in Williams' or other composers' works that is "obviously ripped-off" from someone else. Williams' music is deeply rooted in the western classical music tradition so he has a lot of history behind him and a lot of notes written before his time so I suspect the techniques he has used and phrasing etc. has been done before in some way or the other and this applies to every composer of classical tradition (of course there were and are those pioneers of the 20th century who wanted to create something totally revolutional in classical music but the very essence of their craft lies in the heritage of western classical tradition)

So this is a matter of how you perceive the plagiarism and "rip-offs". Williams has done them but so have everyone else.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

My heart broke when they listed ET (it was on their website with audio clips), and had a file of some piano trio, can't remember who wrote it, that pretty much had the main theme note-for-note with a few rhythmic changes in the melody.  But chord-wise and melody-wise an obvious rip.  

Wasn't this from a quintet/sextet by Korngold?

[Sandor 796]

My heart broke when they listed ET (it was on their website with audio clips), and had a file of some piano trio, can't remember who wrote it, that pretty much had the main theme note-for-note with a few rhythmic changes in the melody. But chord-wise and melody-wise an obvious rip.

I remember this was a piece by Dvorak. I didn't find it THAT similar.

Why didn't anyone mention Korngold's Kings Row theme? Or didn't I read all the posts that good?

Kings Row is the template for many pieces Williams wrote during the late '70's and early '80's, the Star Wars main theme and the Superman march being the most obvious.

But even if it's especially close to Star Wars I find Williams' theme a superior musical statement.

[flytrumpet 0]

In ESB,Williams uses a very short motif from Sibelius's violin concerto(1st mvt i think).It's when the falcon arrives to Bespin.I don't think it's any worse than Mozart beeing inspired by Haydn,and Beethoven beeing inspired by Mozart...etc...

The talent Williams has is to mix all those influences to make something complete and that works with the picture.

Richard

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

I thought to myself, 'wow this is awesome, I'm putting this in my piece!'  Later, however, I discovered that those four measures were almost identical to a passage of music from the movie "Hook" (towards the end of the film, when Hook and Peter are dueling).  The thing that's the killer though, is that, at that time, I did not own the soundtrack (the music I "copied" isn't even on the soundtrack anyway), and I had only seen the movie maybe once or twice before, when I was a young kid.  So I think it was a coincidence (though a little odd) that the music I wrote was also in Williams' "Hook" score.

OrchDork is the Next Williams!

Pixie, stefan didnt mention that part, he mentioned the opening battle...

Anyway, 4 notes can be considered a rip off? or the 2 notes of jaws...

with 8 notes and after more than 500 years of composing, you have to repeat some notes even if you dont have heard them before.

[A24 4,327]

For those with SACD machinery:

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Lurker 5]

My heart broke when they listed ET (it was on their website with audio clips), and had a file of some piano trio, can't remember who wrote it, that pretty much had the main theme note-for-note with a few rhythmic changes in the melody.  But chord-wise and melody-wise an obvious rip.  

Wasn't this from a quintet/sextet by Korngold?

Yes.

And yes, I have that SA-CD, Alex. Great stuff!

Neil

[Jeshopk 8]

Obviously sometimes Williams "nods" to other composers, cleverly writing some sort of Williams styled variation on another composer's work.

Most of these similarities are due to the same reason that the style of concert music changed in the first place. So much ground has been covered in diatonic(slightly chromatic) orchestral music, that basically anything youwrote would bear some resemblance to something that had once come. Composers abandoned melody, harmony, phrasing, etc. to basically claim their own turf. But I think that there comes a point where you just have to accept that you missed the boat when it came to inventing new and useful orchestral standards, and just write music that is effective. Stravinsky wasn't trying to be a groundbreaker. He just was, because he was fearless. There's a difference between fearless in expressing yourself and fearful that you will not add anything new to the art.

I experienced this when writing my first Symphony. I built the entire final movement based on a 2 bar motif. I thought I was a genius as I loved the motif. It turned out to be the same exact motif, and also with the same instrumentation unison horns, as a work I am positive I never, ever could have heard before that.

So, if we tonal and dramatic orchestral composers are to stick to our convictions that it is the best way to portray the emotions, we have to accept that whatever we write may bear some striking resemblance to another composer's work, intentional or not.

Another thing I find puzzling is that it seems that Williams is only accused of plagiarizing orchestral music, while Pop songs are also melodic and diatonic and also probably share some tune fragments with Williams as well. I bet there are numerous instances of a fragment of Williams melody being the same as some old pop song, but nobody accuses because the instrumentation is so different. This to me is an indicator that people are very upset that Williams has resurrected the orchestration techniques of the late Romantics, and are actually not as concerned as they say about melodic similarities.

[Adam 1]

Most of these similarities are due to the same reason that the style of concert music changed in the first place. So much ground has been covered in diatonic(slightly chromatic) orchestral music, that basically anything youwrote would bear some resemblance to something that had once come. Composers abandoned melody, harmony, phrasing, etc. to basically claim their own turf. But I think that there comes a point where you just have to accept that you missed the boat when it came to inventing new and useful orchestral standards, and just write music that is effective. Stravinsky wasn't trying to be a groundbreaker. He just was, because he was fearless. There's a difference between fearless in expressing yourself and fearful that you will not add anything new to the art.

This is a good point. With modern orchestral music, I think it can also be a matter of composers going for seemingly greater complexity. They feel as though they're advancing the craft to new profound levels. But, in the process, they're no longer connecting the art to the audience. Part of the popularity of JW and film music, in general, is that its orchestral music that isn't afraid to be melodic and accessible. And, in fact, as I believe JW has pointed out, this can actually be much harder, though its looked down on in some cicrcles.

I also agree with the earlier point about temp tracks. Unfortunately, we rarely know what exactly is used as a temp track but we know that they are quite common. Even with American Journey, I suspect the temp track may explain the close similarity to Far and Away. People sometimes don't realize that American Journey was written for a documentary. So he approached it exactly like he does with a film and I wouldn't be surprised if Spielberg had certain musical ideas he wanted in the movie.

- Adam

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Pixie, stefan didnt mention that part, he mentioned the opening battle...

A-ha, so I didn't rip off Stefan after all!

Anyway, 4 notes can be considered a rip off? or the 2 notes of jaws......

Yes, if they are repeated as an ostinato and form the underlying basis for a piece or section of a piece.......

with 8 notes and after more than 500 years of composing, you have to repeat some notes even if you dont have heard them before.

Unless you use the 12-tone system, and lets face it no one goes around whistling Webern tunes to himself!

[pixie_twinkle 48]

As for temp tracks, sometimes it's very obvious what must have been used, hence the music sounding just like Mahler 6 in the Napoleon segment of Time Bandits. (Music by Mike Moran)

[Marian Schedenig 8,179]

Pixie, stefan didnt mention that part, he mentioned the opening battle...

A-ha, so I didn't rip off Stefan after all!

No, I was the one who mentioned it.

In ESB,Williams uses a very short motif from Sibelius's violin concerto(1st mvt i think).It's when the falcon arrives to Bespin.

THANK YOU! Chris Afonso will confirm that I've been trying to figure out in what score I'd heard that phrase for months...

Marian - who obviously hasn't listened to ESB for too long. :oops:

[ecurbh 0]

Unless you use the 12-tone system, and lets face it no one goes around whistling Webern tunes to himself!  

Well, I have on occasion been known to hum the theme from The Taking of Pelham One Two Three.

If I did the math right, I figure there are 479,001,600 different 12-tone rows possible.

[Jeshopk 8]

Yes, if they are repeated as an ostinato and form the underlying basis for a piece or section of a piece.......

Then why is an ostinato of a 5th or a major 2nd not seen as exclusive. I see no reason to single out the half step ostinato as a claimed and patented element of any one composer. Stricken!

[Vincent_Price 0]

An interesting case about E.T. here :

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/articles/2...wsuit_Recap.asp