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Okay. Williams' "rip-offs." What are they?


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Yes, if they are repeated as an ostinato and form the underlying basis for a piece or section of a piece.......

Then why is an ostinato of a 5th or a major 2nd not seen as exclusive. I see no reason to single out the half step ostinato as a claimed and patented element of any one composer. Stricken!

Likewise any composer could rewrite the Tristan chord. It doesn't alter the fact that everyone's going to think of Wagner whenever they hear it. Besides, it's not just a half-step ostinato is it? It's also the register and orchestration that are similar between the two pieces. We are not just talking about two abstract notes here, it's a complete musical idea.

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There are only four prime colours. It doesn't excuse someone from painting fake Mona Lisas though does it?

That's a poor argument.

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It is a direct response to hoby12's statement, and is just as silly. By claiming my argument to be poor you are surely recognising the flaws in both statements. And rightly so. No one said that simply using the same notes as another composer constitutes a rip-off. My point is that in most of the instances of Williams rip-offs that have been brought up it is the entire musical idea which is similar to another work, from the rhythm, orchestration, and placing to the actual understructure (in the case of Adventures on Earth). Ultimately if enough people can hear a different composition in a piece you have written, then it has in some way failed to be an original work.

It's actually a ludicrous argument, but one you might expect from Mr. Twinkle....

I'm always happy to sink to new depths in my arguments :P

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I think Williams would be pretty sad if he saw this thread. People here don't seem to realize that EVERY melody, regardless of genre, bears a resemblance to SOMETHING that's been done before. It's true that there's nothing new under the sun (and while we're at it, this goes for all things considered "art").

Sure, some of JW's compositions are similiar to classical pieces (the most obvious is probably "Making the Plane" from Home Alone), but I wouldn't use the word "rip-off" even here. It's an hommage. I think we should be glad that JW studies classical music so much and tries to get his inspiration from them. After all, I can't think of any other composer who does it so consistently as he does. Do you really think that JW -- his music is listened by thousands of millions (not because they necessarily buy soundtracks, but because they watch movies) -- would actually blatantly steal from pieces that are generally known?

IMO, what makes an artist successful is not what he does to break new ground (although that's part of it, and JW has done his share here, as well) but what he does with what's been done before, so that it appears fresh and imaginative. So we listen to a melody that might be slightly familiar in a completely different context . . . but to great effect -- and sometimes those compositions even surpass the original. And that's what JW does over and over again.

I agree with only two posts here 100% (but that's just my opinion, see what you think). :P

P.S. I think the name of this thread should be changed to "Okay. Williams' inspirations. What are they?"

Williams just gets attacked more for it because A: more people hear his music, and B: many serious musicians resent his success and wealth, and see his more obvious rip-offs as an easy target for attack. People don't attack Mahler the same way for ripping off both Brahms AND Beethoven in his third symphony. Interesting that...

Obviously sometimes Williams "nods" to other composers, cleverly writing some sort of Williams styled variation on another composer's work.

Most of these similarities are due to the same reason that the style of concert music changed in the first place. So much ground has been covered in diatonic(slightly chromatic) orchestral music, that basically anything youwrote would bear some resemblance to something that had once come.

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The blatent Psycho use in A New Hope when the Stormtroopers have just serched the Millenium Falcon and Han and Luke and Leia and Chewbaka and Obi-Wan emerge from the floor. I can't remember if this was intentional or accidental.
You mean the 3-note low string line? Sounds pretty accidental, but I see where you're coming from. Of all the Star Wars (1 & 2 as well), ANH probably has the most outside influences.

The use in "Star Wars" of the three-note strings piece ("The Madhouse") from "Psycho" was very deliberate. That particular cue was used at the same point on the "Star Wars" temp track and retained by Williams as a personal homage to Bernard Herrmann.

The influence of the temp track on an original score is very interesting. Even I could spot the "Mars" and "Rite of Spring" similarities in early scenes of "Star Wars" (and I'm pretty hopeless musically), but assumed that they must have been on the temp track and therefore Williams was simply trying to provide the mood that the director wanted for those scenes with a similar sound, rather than ripping off the classics.

"2001: A Space Odyssey" is a great example of this process (where of course the temp track ended up being actually used in the finished film, and the original score discarded). Since we now have both scores on CD, the influence of one on the other can be directly compared, and the similarities and differences of the Main Theme to Also Sprach Zarathustra in both melody and orchestration are fascinating.

I know that the "Star Wars" temp track used "The Planets", "Rite of Spring", "From the New World", and other classical pieces (plus a little of "Psycho"!), but is there a more specific breakdown of what pieces would fit where? A trained ear could presumably pick out many references and hints, but I have trouble just telling one instrument from another on a pop track, so aside from the obvious Blockade Runner and Desert music I wouldn't have a clue!

If I did the math right, I figure there are 479,001,600 different 12-tone rows possible.

I think it's actually a lot more -- 8,916,100,448,256!!!

And that's simply the order of notes - start varying the duration of notes within the patterns too and the figure may as well be infinite!

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i don't know if I was imagining things, but i'm pretty sure i heard the Jaws theme during a scene in Moby Dick, where the whale is charging to the boat, I may have been involuntary associating the music though, lol

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JW has written hundreds of hours of music; the music is played by some of the most renowned symphony orchestras in the world - people who know alot of music and alot about music. Surely, pride alone would prevent him from stealing.

I don't buy it - when you write so much music, there are always going to be similar themes/motifs - but, outright, blatant "rip off" by JW - I don't think so. I'm not being a "fan-boy", but we should remember that he has mere weeks to compose scores, and he does see the films with temp scores - he is human, but I don't believe he steals (and that's what we're talking about here).

If you look hard enough, you'll hear many similarities bewteen various musical compositions - but just because someone else wrote something similar doesn't mean that JW stole anything.

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"Quidditch, Third Year" owes a HUGE debt to the "Finale" (4th mvmt) of Shostakovich's 5th Symphony (the first two minutes esp.) - the galloping rhythms, the strings carrying the melody, the tone, the key.

The brass theme in that cue has been used before by Jay Chattaway for his opening cue to the Star Trek: Voyager episode Scorpion part II

:sigh:

Holy crap, you're right! LOL

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i'm surprised no one has mentioned copland. his influence is EXTREMELY enormous on williams. copland began the whole americana sound. look at these for example: fanfare for the common man or rodeo. the one i think that influenced williams the most is appalachian spring. it spells nobel williams sound (or horner too). it also has sections that remind me of williams's sad sound. i'm just pointing out the influence. williams didnt copy but the sound is coplands.

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I think this might goes with John Williams influences with other composers. What I mean by that is that is when John Williams was growing up just like everyone else does... everyone who compose music or anything that interests you have in common that someone or more than one person is influencing you and try to make yourself as good as that person but in your style of way.

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Holy crap, you're right!  LOL

I've wanted a CD release of that cue and the rest of that score for ages now, DAMN YOU PARAMOUNT!

Just because I love you...I sent you a PM. ;) Nothing much, but it's a nice...short little thing. :P

Hopefully we'll get something out of Paramount for the 40th anniversary.... :)

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In some of Williams' more recent scores (In Particular - AI, WOTW, and Minority Report) he has written a few slightly dissonant string cues like Cybertronics from AI. If you listen to some of Bartók's work (Take Music for Strings, Percussion & Celesta [sz.106])) you'll find the harmonies and overally melodic "style" is extremely similar to these dissonant string cues that Williams has written in recent years.

Also, listen to Neptune - The Mystic (The Planets), you'll definetely recognise that Williams was influenced by this piece of music in some of his more mysterious cues. In particular listen to tracks like The Birth of the Twins and compare it with Neptune.

On top of this there is the other similarities that have been mentioned such as the ending of Mars (The Battle of Yavin), Stravinsky's Firebird (Arrival of Tink), etc.

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Okay what about the Star Wars Main Theme or all of John Williams Themes? Did he steal or hack from other people music to use it for his Themes?

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Ahhhh yeah!!! A one Mr Gustav Holst. Try listening to THE PLANETS by Holst especially track 1...the Bringer of War. It's been copied by mindless hacks like Cliff Eidelman and used lovingly by James Horner.

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