The Doctor Who Thread.....

[MattyO 62]

I'm with you Disco Stu. I got into the revival with Capaldi, then went back to the beginning. But series 9 stands out as an absolute ripper of a run. Production, writing, music, Capaldiness - all brilliant.

[Arpy 4,145]

Moffat started off so strong with Series 5, but lost steam by Series 7. Capaldi's era was (even by Moffat's own account) a kind of soft reboot and I think Capaldi's age, as much as it was a detractor to some audience demographics, really meshed well with the writing for his three seasons. 

 

 

[Sweeping Strings 2,342]

Moffat said of Capaldi's casting 'Chris was 40, David was 34, Matt was 26 ... if we'd kept going that way, the next Doctor would've been played by a foetus. Time to have an old man snarl at you for a bit'  . 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

If I want an old man snarling at me, I'll watch Bill Hartnell, thank you very much. Hmm? Child?

Peter Capaldi will, for me, forever be Danny Oldsen.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

3 hours ago, Arpy said:

Moffat started off so strong with Series 5, but lost steam by Series 7. Capaldi's era was (even by Moffat's own account) a kind of soft reboot and I think Capaldi's age, as much as it was a detractor to some audience demographics, really meshed well with the writing for his three seasons. 

 

I think he really found the heart of the character after all the narrative fireworks of the Smith era.  I mean, Capaldi's speech about being kind in "The Doctor Falls" is everything I love about Moffat and Capaldi's conception of the character.

[Tallguy 3,359]

4 hours ago, Arpy said:

Capaldi's era was (even by Moffat's own account) a kind of soft reboot

 

And it was SO GOOD! As much as I loved Smith, like you said by the end I was rolling my eyes a bit. (Not counting Day and Time of the Doctor. Those are masterpieces.)

 

Oh yes. The speech to the Masters is one of the best things about new Who. It's funny, the last Capaldi season is clearly intended to be Who for New Viewers. But then he drops Missy and Simm's Master. I don't know how that works for viewers that started with The Pilot.

 

Capaldi might be my favorite NuWho Doctor. And I never knew it while I was watching.

[Sweeping Strings 2,342]

For me, a good indicator that they knew they were onto something with Capaldi was that his second-ever episode was a Dalek one. You don't have 'the new boy' face the Doctor's oldest enemies that soon if you're not sure he's up to it.   

[Disco Stu 15,495]

4 minutes ago, Sweeping Strings said:

For me, a good indicator that they knew they were onto something with Capaldi was that his second-ever episode was a Dalek one. You don't have 'the new boy' face the Doctor's oldest enemies that soon if you're not sure he's up to it.   

 

And his scenes with Davros in Magician's Apprentice/Witch's Familiar are effin' awesome!  Man, series 9 really is just da best.

[Tallguy 3,359]

And the two part Zygon one. Truly firing on all cylinders on all levels.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

You mean THE ZYGON INVASION/THE ZYGON INVERSION?

Fantastic. I cheered when Kate Stewart said "Five rounds rapid".

[Sweeping Strings 2,342]

And the Doctor's mesmeric anti-war speech. Goosebump-inducing stuff. 

Apparently (apart from the 4th episode which is a co-write with the writer of the Villa Diodati episode) Chibnall has penned all of the 6 episodes of the new series. Should at least mean the arc has story consistency, whatever else it has remains to be seen.     

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Trailer for the next series has landed:

 

 

 

I mean it doesn't actually look half bad. It's certainly finally reached that "Netflix Original Series" production value that Chibnall was so obsessed with replicating, notwithstanding how bad a fit that is for Doctor Who. Never seen a battle scene quite like this in the show though, and some of those new monster designs look pretty good. Also it looks like the Sontarans will actually be somewhat intimidating for the first time since Series 4 - nothing against Strax who I quite like, but he was the only Sontaran we saw really, and was just comic relief. I'm intrigued by the ongoing story angle, provided it stays interesting and sticks the landing (not holding my breath).

 

What I don't like is that it's all very intense, important and serious. Lacking any kind of fun, wonder or adventure that is the cornerstone of the show. Comedy is really not Chibnall's strength, and it shows. To be fair, he did come off the back of Moffat who cut his teeth in the sitcom world, that's always going to be a hard comparison.

 

Still, it does look a lot better than the last two series, and it looks like my cautious optimism in Chib's final run wasn't entirely misplaced.

 

[Arpy 4,145]

To be fair - it's a teaser trailer of sorts, not a lot to gather of what the tone of each episode will be like.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

7 minutes ago, Arpy said:

To be fair - it's a teaser trailer of sorts, not a lot to gather of what the tone of each episode will be like.

 

True, true, I am being harsh about the tone. Most of the teasers for previous series were similarly dramatic. I'm just not convinced we'll see much more than those few moments in the trailer of flaccid levity in the actual series.

 

Still cautiously optimistic!

[Sweeping Strings 2,342]

Interesting to see the Sontarans looking more like they did in the 70s and 80s here. 

On the tone ... well, John Bishop is predominantly a stand-up comedian. I'd imagine he'll bring at least some of that to Dan.  

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I love that they replaced the charismatic and humorous middle-aged companion with another charismatic and humorous middle-aged companion. 

[Richard Penna 3,664]

The high water mark for Who trailers will always be this masterpiece for series 5, shown at the end of the first episode. It helps that this arc of the show had a highly developed companion who we cared about, but also such a mix of fun, emotion and interesting stories. For me, there is simple competition for the best modern Doctor between Tennant and Smith. Don't get me wrong - Capaldi was fantastic too; I think the other two just had more impact on me.

 

This new series just looks like the latest 'armageddon' storyline where everything goes to shit again, with Whittaker making the odd joke. Could still be good - series 11 was good and had some fun moments - it just didn't really have what previous series had.

 

I even remember that my Mum got me a birthday card with Smith as the Doctor and Amy, and she always tries to find cards that reflect what I'm obesessed with that year. The fact that she knew to get that speaks volumes about how much positivity there was about the show at that point. (we even sat down and watched Smith's last episode together at Christmas, although unfortunately series 6 was more confusing than it needed to be, so none of us, myself included really understood it)

 

 

[Sweeping Strings 2,342]

Always good to hear Gold's brilliant 'I Am The Doctor' again. Hope he returns when RTD does, current show composer's stuff just sort of washes past me. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

On 16/10/2021 at 12:02 PM, Sweeping Strings said:

Interesting to see the Sontarans looking more like they did in the 70s and 80s here. 

Really, Sweep? Have you seen THE INVASION OF TIME? 6'6" Sontarans. No!

Joking aside, they do look more like Pertwee era, than Tennant era.

[Tom Guernsey 2,277]

5 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Always good to hear Gold's brilliant 'I Am The Doctor' again. Hope he returns when RTD does, current show composer's stuff just sort of washes past me. 

Totally agreed, probably my favourite theme for the Doctor - even if it's much more about his adventurous side than the mysterious/melancholy side. I think it's fairly likely that Murray Gold will return given that RTD has used him for all of his recent shows. Agreed that Akinola's music has been somewhat underwhelming. Not awful, but what Gold wrote was a whole other level.

 

What's great about that trailer is that the show was as exciting as the trailer made it look... 

[Richard Penna 3,664]

Gold returning would be really nice, as his work on the show has been largely unparalleled.

 

Although I fear (let me rephrase: I know) that Akinola's music will be considered in the same way that non-JW contributors to a JW-started franchise are treated, as he largely tried a different approach, at a time where I felt the show needed a little breather from Gold's very exuberant style. Not saying it's great music, but I think it's unfair to compare it to Gold like-for-like.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

Now that RTD is back, it bodes well for the return of Eccleston, for the 60th.

[Tom Guernsey 2,277]

2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Gold returning would be really nice, as his work on the show has been largely unparalleled.

 

Although I fear (let me rephrase: I know) that Akinola's music will be considered in the same way that non-JW contributors to a JW-started franchise are treated, as he largely tried a different approach, at a time where I felt the show needed a little breather from Gold's very exuberant style. Not saying it's great music, but I think it's unfair to compare it to Gold like-for-like.

That’s a fair comment. I guess the only reason is due to it being the same show. I have to admit that I never thought to directly compare with the music for the original series either. But then I never really cared for much of the music from the original show (outside the iconic main theme of course). I think Akinola set things off badly for me from the opening episode where the long section at the end set in some industrial area with cranes was just a pulsing bass thing that didn’t go anywhere musically or dramatically. It got better and some of the later music was pretty decent but never blew me away. 

[Sweeping Strings 2,342]

12 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Now that RTD is back, it bodes well for the return of Eccleston, for the 60th.

He's already ruled himself out, and the reason is RTD coming back. They REALLY don't get on anymore. 

Have heard that the writer of Orphan 55 was arrested twice in 2019 at Extinction Rebellion protests. Certainly explains a few things about that ep. 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

1 hour ago, Sweeping Strings said:

He's already ruled himself out, and the reason is RTD coming back. They REALLY don't get on anymore.

Oh, Sweep! I'm very sad to read that. I didn't know that things had deteriorated between them.

We've still got Capaidi, Smith, Tennant, McGann, McCoy, Baker, Davison, and Baker 

[Sweeping Strings 2,342]

Eccleston is a good actor but he's also a crabby, chippy bastard. He seems to have had 'issues' during several things he's worked on.  

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

That's a great shame, as he's a very good actor, and one of the very best Doctors.

[Tallguy 3,359]

I've decided there is a rule of Doctor Who anniversary episodes. Some critical piece must always be missing. Hartnell was in poor health for The Three Doctors, Baker refused to come back for The Five Doctors, and Eccleston would not come back for Day of the Doctor.

 

I can't say that the Three Doctors wouldn't have been better if Hartnell had been able to be more involved. But The Five Doctors was pretty much planned to be TOM BAKER (guest starring the other doctors). So there was a bullet dodged. And Day of the Doctor is so perfect I almost can't bear to think of it being messed with. (Although it's dizzying to think about Eccleston getting to be the "War Doctor". I can't imagine that the original idea would have had 10 and 11 being so repelled by 9 as they were by the WD.)

 

One wonders what will happen for the 60th. It might just be Eccleston again but that seems too easy.

[Marian Schedenig 8,153]

On 15/10/2021 at 12:51 PM, Sweeping Strings said:

And the Doctor's mesmeric anti-war speech. Goosebump-inducing stuff.

 

That was when I realised that Capaldi might just be my favourite Doctor.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

16 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Eccleston is a good actor but he's also a crabby, chippy bastard. He seems to have had 'issues' during several things he's worked on.  

I find him refreshingly honest in an industry so heavily veiled behind ass-kissing. I don’t blame him for not wanting to work for RTD/Gardner/BBC again, the story goes that the first production block was an absolute disaster, from dangerous and unsustainable working conditions to reports of abuse on set directed at the low-level crew members by higher-ups. Then the BBC sabotaged his exit by releasing an inaccurate press statement, then effectively blacklisted him afterwards.

By all accounts the ship had steadied by the time Tennant came on board but by then the damage was done and Eccleston wanted no part of it.

 

It’s a shame we won’t see him on screen again as the Doctor, but in light of the horrendous working conditions of film and TV and accounts of abusive workplaces we constantly hear about I respect him for standing his ground on this.

[Sweeping Strings 2,342]

I read recently that Eccleston's anger boiled over to the extent that he punched a member of the production team (Phil Collinson?) in the face. RTD and Gardner sided with Collinson over the incident, and that was that ... the Ninth Doctor would be onscreen for one season only. 

Sorry, but no matter how angry you are that's deeply unprofessional (as it was when Clarkson did it to a member of the Top Gear production team 10 years later). It's also telling that despite things having changed by the time The Day Of The Doctor was shooting, he turned down the request to come in and be part of the War-Doctor-into-Nine regeneration scene. 

Ah well ... ultimately it meant the brilliant David Tennant came on board earlier than planned, which is fine by me.    

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

Interesting. I also read that Eccleston did DW, as a "thank you" to RTD, for being cast in THE SECOND COMING.

There's a rather awkward interview that Eccleston did, which can be seen on the extras DVD of Season (insert number, here). He squirms, when being asked if he's doing any more DW.

I hadn't heard about the punching but, as you say, Sweep, it's unacceptable, under any circumstances. Clarkson knew that, but then, Clarkson is an eejit, anyway.

I did know that Eccleston refused to do the regeneration scene.

 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

9 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

I read recently that Eccleston's anger boiled over to the extent that he punched a member of the production team (Phil Collinson?) in the face. RTD and Gardner sided with Collinson over the incident, and that was that ... the Ninth Doctor would be onscreen for one season only. 

Sorry, but no matter how angry you are that's deeply unprofessional (as it was when Clarkson did it to a member of the Top Gear production team 10 years later). It's also telling that despite things having changed by the time The Day Of The Doctor was shooting, he turned down the request to come in and be part of the War-Doctor-into-Nine regeneration scene. 

Ah well ... ultimately it meant the brilliant David Tennant came on board earlier than planned, which is fine by me.    

I hadn’t heard about that. If it’s true then I completely agree, that’s unacceptable behaviour no matter what. 
 

I suppose one day we might hear the truth behind all of this, and maybe neither party will come out looking any good!

[Brónach 1,301]

Didn't Eccleston say they were mistreating the crew or something of that sort?

On 19/10/2021 at 5:40 AM, Docteur Qui said:

I find him refreshingly honest in an industry so heavily veiled behind ass-kissing. I don’t blame him for not wanting to work for RTD/Gardner/BBC again, the story goes that the first production block was an absolute disaster, from dangerous and unsustainable working conditions to reports of abuse on set directed at the low-level crew members by higher-ups. Then the BBC sabotaged his exit by releasing an inaccurate press statement, then effectively blacklisted him afterwards.

By all accounts the ship had steadied by the time Tennant came on board but by then the damage was done and Eccleston wanted no part of it.

 

It’s a shame we won’t see him on screen again as the Doctor, but in light of the horrendous working conditions of film and TV and accounts of abusive workplaces we constantly hear about I respect him for standing his ground on this.

 

Oh

 

Maybe he was right with the punching

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

I'd also read that people were being mistreated. Whether that justifies punching someone, is up for debate.

Anyway, just over 97 1/2 hours (GMT) to go...

[Tallguy 3,359]

Wow. There is so much stuff coming up that I'm going to be totally blindsided by New Who on Sunday!

[DarthDementous 1,059]

Watched Chapter 1 and it was...well, more of the same really. Going to spoiler tag this in case it hasn't been transmitted some places yet.

 

Spoiler

I'm seeing the same mistakes being made in previous Chibnall seasons. Most heinous is probably the complete misfire of focus in regards to the Flux destroying the universe. Only at the end of the episode do the companions remember 'oh wait, my family lives in this universe' and then they just sound mildly annoyed that they're going to be wiped out with the rest of their race.

If this was RTD, then the annihilation of Earth would be the main focus and the companions would be freaking the hell out and pressuring The Doctor to go there and save the Earth against all other responsibilities. There would've been opportunities for conflict of interest there that arise naturally from the contrast between who The Doctor is as a person who sees the bigger picture and the companions who's perspectives are limited to their own locale despite having seen the wider galaxy.

Instead we get this contrived conflict between The Doctor and Yaz where they stubbornly refuse to mention anything about what it is or what they're doing like a child because The Doctor is still reeling from the Timeless Child reveal and is trying to investigate leads towards the Division. I'm still jarred by this conflict because The Doctor I know wouldn't let something like this re-define them, they've been through far too much and carved out their own destiny to dwell on their past so much like this. I'm sorry but this is absolute peanuts to genociding your entire race and fighting in the most fucked up war in the history of time.

Watching this show is just an obligation now, but it does at least increase how much I'm looking forward to a new showrunner.

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

I've not seen it yet, but by what you say @DarthDementous, it sounds pretty much like what we were expecting.

 

[Sweeping Strings 2,342]

Well, I really enjoyed it ... fun, epic and a lot of mysterious shenanigans. Also not forgetting the chill that ran through me when the Weeping Angel made its appearance.   

[DarthDementous 1,059]

The Weeping Angel sequence was handled fine but it also felt rather haphazardly tossed into the episode. I’m sure the connection will become obvious later but at least for the first episode it felt very out of place and completely unconnected to what was happening. Obviously I’m going to reserve my judgment but I’m getting the vibe the Angels are going to feel more fan-service in their inclusion than a natural element of the story.

 

It was also a bit strange that the Angel kept its face covered the entire time until it was close enough to send the person back in time. I remember in Blink they would uncover their eyes when they had sight of their target, and would gradually grow more demonic in appearance. I liked that, the escalation was more effective horror than teleporting in the same position up until the very end where you switch into a final ‘got you’ pose

[Richard Penna 3,664]

Just finished, and to my great surprise, I really enjoyed it too. The Weeping Angel sequence felt incredibly tossed in, and didn't seem as effective as when Moffatt did it, but otherwise the episode worked well.

 

I'm now wondering why that cat guy set traps for the doctor when he was a rescuer - feels like a plot device that works when we think he's capturing him, but then swept aside when we find he isn't.

 

The 'Flux' was somehow at the same time both a bit unoriginal and also rather disturbing. Akinola's music also stood out to me a bit more than it did in last year's special.

 

If Chibnall keeps this up for the whole series, he will at least go out having done something worthwhile after the horrendous series 12.

[Sweeping Strings 2,342]

 A nice thing about a 6-episode overall story arc is the return of cliffhanger endings, which haven't been a regular feature since the 'classic' era. 

[Richard Penna 3,664]

Yeah I did like the ending in a directorial/dramatic sense, even if it's pretty clear it will be resolved quickly somehow next episode.

 

For one brief moment I thought Chibnall was going down his usual poltical road with the food bank scene, but I like how it was brief, no preaching, and just set up the character's situation.

 

And I was thinking exactly what the Doctor thought with the laptop before she said it. Nice to see some attention paid to the writing.

[Sweeping Strings 2,342]

Yeah, seems the food-bank volunteering was there just to establish that Dan's a nice guy (see also him having no issue with potentially beginning a relationship with someone with a disability). 

'Anfield ... classic! I saw the Barcelona game 9 times'. 

Are we to infer from that bit of dialogue that the Doctor is a 'Red' but has previously kept quiet about it? 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

2 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

 A nice thing about a 6-episode overall story arc is the return of cliffhanger endings, which haven't been a regular feature since the 'classic' era. 

Yeah, especially the end of DRAGONFIRE Episode One.

It's a literal cliffhanger! 

[Marian Schedenig 8,153]

I liked how it started out with a scene straight out of Monkey Island 2, but mostly I'm with Darth. There's something awfully off, annoyingly arbitrary in the overall pacing, and that includes the editing of character bits and the score (which at times tries to make up for it with Zimmer drums, but that's never worked for me).

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

16 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

...at times tries to make up for it with Zimmer drums...

Oh...fuck!

[eitam 364]

Well, it's still a Chibnall episode, IMO lacking in the excitement and imagination and clever concepts to be found in Moffat's episodes, but I'm curious to see what the more serialized format does for the show and the characters. Karvanista was fun. 

 

The Weeping Angels sequence was infuriaring, Claire knew what they were and yet she turned not once but TWICE to look for the keyhole of her door ! 

[Richard Penna 3,664]

That wasn't the only character idiocy.

 

The two at the start approach the imprisoned guy, and one of them says 'don't engage in conversation'. She then.... engages.. in... conversation.

 

 

[eitam 364]

Oh yeah ! Typical ! 

But then, conversation or not, it didn't matter at all, because the Big Bad just... escaped. Right under their nose. Somehow ?