The Doctor Who Thread.....

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

Thanks for that, Magic. looks like it's gonna be Easter Saturday!

Don't forget the "minisode" on Comic Relief next Friday 18th. March, sometime in-between 7:00pm, and 8:30pm GMT.

[Brónach 1,302]

Aw, I thought it would start earlier.

I didn't know the miniepisode thing, thanks

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Blame Easter. It's really late this year.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Quite a coincidence, this thread being revived today. I just got the 5th season on Blu and watched "The 11th Hour". Great fun! Picture quality is amazing, and the episode benefits from the gap between seeing it first time and now.I'm picking up on a lot more of the subtle (and not-so subtle) touches. Great!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

FYI, chaps "Christopher,And His Kind" is being shown on BBC2 on Saturday 19th, March at 9:30pm GMT.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What?

[crocodile 8,012]

I saw only one episode of this thing. There were some kind of flying trash bins taking over the world or something.

While a but tacky it looked quite charming and entertaining. I guess the question has been asked before, but I couldn't be bothered to look for it (lazy I am)... Where do you start watching?

Sorry if I sound like a complete ignorant here, but there are so many incarnations that it's completely over my head. You know... what's what...

Karol

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Best place to start is with the start of the revival, so "Series 1" starring Christopher Eccleston (2005). There's a couple of dodgy episodes to begin with, but on the whole the show starts with a very strong season, and Eccleston is just brilliant as the Doctor. The effects and general vibe of the show are slightly camp, but with some nicely done dramatic moments. If you're after something a little more cinematic and dark, start with the most recent season, starring Matt Smith as the Doctor.

Of course, once you're familiar with the Doctor, it's then time to go back and watch the classic series, starting with William Hartnell.

[crocodile 8,012]

Thanks!

Karol

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

I saw only one episode of this thing. There were some kind of flying trash bins taking over the world or something.

While a but tacky it looked quite charming and entertaining. I guess the question has been asked before, but I couldn't be bothered to look for it (lazy I am)... Where do you start watching?

Sorry if I sound like a complete ignorant here, but there are so many incarnations that it's completely over my head. You know... what's what...

Karol

Wha? You live in Norwich, and you've never seen an episode of "Doctor Who"?!

I assume that the "flying trash bins" that you are referring to are The Daleks?

Magic's right. Begin with series 1 (I won't confuse the issue by calling it series 27). Move on to Tennant, and then - if you really must - Smith.

Also, do some research. "Doctor Who" is a very rich programme: rich in variety, rich in entertainment, and rich in morals. Don't worry about all the disparate strands: if you watch it long enough, it will all come together.

If you have any questions, I'm sure that the likes of Pixie, John C., and also myself will be able to help you.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Start with the Eccleston season, and don't look back at what came before that!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

Start with the Eccleston season, and don't look back at what came before that!

Idiot.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Westham United supporter!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

Westham United supporter!

O.k., Stefan, you have gone waaaaaaaaaaaay too far! Why don't you come round my house and say that?

Also, it's "West Ham United".

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

When your team is relegated, maybe they will change their name!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

When your team is relegated, maybe they will change their name!

There is only one football team that has never been relegated since it was invited to re-join League Division One, after World war I, and it is not, I am happy to say, West ham United.

Here's a clue: there is no film called "The West Ham United Stadium Mystery".

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

18/3/2001 7:24pm

A plot device knicked from "Logopolis", a tasteless "joke" about Amy's minge, and it's all "to be continued". That's 5 minutes of my life that I'll never get back.

18/3/2001 7:35pm.

Whoops! Spoke too soon. More jokes about a threesome, and it's back on April 23rd!

Nifty title for the first episode: "The Impossible Astronaut".

[pixie_twinkle 48]

What are you talking about? Did I miss something?

By the way, for those interested in classic 60s Who, I can't recommend these CD sets highly enough. All the stories with episodes missing are gradually being issued in CD format. The complete, unedited original audio soundtrack for each episode is presented in (generally) super quality, considering the off-air source of the recordings. Linking narration is provided by Carole Ann Ford, William Russel, Peter Purves, and other cast members (one narrater per story, obviously). The narration is sparse, effective, and never intrusive or inappropriate. You would think these episodes were made for radio! I am having a blast listening through these stories, many of which I didn't know at all before getting these sets. I am really looking forward to The Dalek's Masterplan, which is in the second set. Great stuff!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctor-Who-Episodes-Collection-1964-1965/dp/1408467518/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1300479556&sr=8-2

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctor-Who-Episodes-Collection-1965-1966/dp/1408467526/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300479556&sr=8-1

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

What are you talking about? Did I miss something?

By the way, for those interested in classic 60s Who, I can't recommend these CD sets highly enough. All the stories with episodes missing are gradually being issued in CD format. The complete, unedited original audio soundtrack for each episode is presented in (generally) super quality, considering the off-air source of the recordings. Linking narration is provided by Carole Ann Ford, William Russell, Peter Purves, and other cast members (one narrater per story, obviously). The narration is sparse, effective, and never intrusive or inappropriate. You would think these episodes were made for radio! I am having a blast listening through these stories, many of which I didn't know at all before getting these sets. I am really looking forward to The Dalek's Masterplan, which is in the second set. Great stuff!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctor-Who-Episodes-Collection-1964-1965/dp/1408467518/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1300479556&sr=8-2

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctor-Who-Episodes-Collection-1965-1966/dp/1408467526/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300479556&sr=8-1

Yeah, you did; Comic Relief. Don't worry, Pixie, I'm sure that it'll be all over the net, by now.

P.s., it was nowhere as good as "Timecrash".

[LongTallJodie 59]

I thought it was great fun and rather hilarious at times. I've no problem with irreverence aboard the TARDIS.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Thanks YouTube

18/3/2001 7:24pm

A plot device knicked from "Logopolis", a tasteless "joke" about Amy's minge, and it's all "to be continued". That's 5 minutes of my life that I'll never get back.

A HUGE nod to Logopolis! Not quite so creepy though, without the cloister bell tolling ominously in the background. I wonder if we will ever actually get to SEE the cloister bell at some point. I imagine an enormous, ancient, cracked bell floating suspended in mid-air and surrounded by an eerie dark aura.

It wasn't that bad. Actually a lot of fun. I'm sure they'll stick it on the Season 6 box set.

[davros72 1]

I enjoyed "Space" and "Time" too. Lots of fun, for a good cause. Karen looking as gorgeous as ever, Rory being Rory, the Doctor as crazy as ever. Amazing how much naughtiness they can get away with in a "family" program. Sorry, "programme".

[Brónach 1,302]

I also enjoyed it.

[Wycket 36]

It was a nice little piece to bide time until the new season starts. I thought it was actually pretty funny, but I'm glad Moffat keeps it more serious during the actual series. The sad part is, what is written as a comedy by Moffat is a standard story by Davies standards. If anything, this made me realize how glad I am to see him gone.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

That's a bit unfair. What RTD achieved was nothing short of miraculous. He brought a show that had always been loved by a nerdy bunch of schoolboys (some in their 30s!) like me, and made it a beloved national treasure for everyone to watch. Also, many of the episodes produced during RTD's tenure contained some of the creepiest and most powerful oments in the entire history of the show. The Empty Child, The Impossible Planet, Silence in the Library, Blink, The Unquiet Dead... All amazing episodes produced by RTD. Not forgetting Torchwood and Sarah Jane Adventures, both of which I love. The man is a God as far as I'm concerned.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He's a good, but at times both a very sloppy and lazy writer. Just take The End Of Time as an example.

[Brónach 1,302]

It's not like everything Moffat has written for the show has been perfect, either.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

His writing during the RTD era has been amongst the best of those seasons though.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Neither RTD or Moffat are perfect showrunners. Davies' era was plagued by some serious deus ex machina, over-the-top characters/situations, clunky plots and a lack of believable/varied sci-fi elements. However, he single-handedly revived the show and brought it into the modern world. As much as I find some of the episodes overly sentimental - border-lining on soap opera at times - he instilled an incredible emotional core to a series that had previously left a lot of people cold. He allowed an entire generation experience the brilliant universe of Doctor Who, and expanded on it. There was stuff I didn't like about the show when he was in charge (and sadly The End of Time was not the sendoff it should have been), but a whole lot more that I loved.

Grand Moff Steven hasn't been without his blemishes either. I love the direction he took the new series; it's like a Grimm fairy tale mixed with sci-fi, and I see it as a natural progression from what came before. I care far more for Smith's Doctor than Tennant's (though niether have reached the brilliance of Eccleston - yet); he seems far more alien and less likely to be chasing human women all the time. However, after viewing a whole season under Moff it has become clear that he doesn't quite nail the emotion that RTD mastered (and subsequently took too far). He's got the alien parts down pat, but the essential human side of things plays more like a sitcom. Amy and Rory are a joy to watch, but I'd never believe in a millions years that they're real people. He's also cleverer in his resolutions and snappier with dialogue, but one can't help but notice that he's re-using a lot of his best ideas. I'm getting a bit sick of hearing "Come along Pond", "Hello Sweetie", "bowties/fezzes/Stetsons are cool" already, and then "okay kids, this is where things get complicated" turned up again in the Comic Relief special. Doctor Who is not a catch-phrase show. I had enough of it with 10's "Allons-y", "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry" and "brilliant"s.

So the short of it is that Who has never been perfect, and it probably never will be. But that's half the fun in watching. I want this show to go on forever if it can. It needs no final resolution or end. It's simply the story of a crazy old man who flies around space and time in a blue box which is bigger on the inside. The possibilities are infinite, and so the quality will always vary.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

In many ways Amy feels more like a real person then Rose, Martha and Donna.

[Brónach 1,302]

In many ways Amy feels more like a real person then Rose, Martha and Donna.

I agree.

When I said Moffat's writing has not been so perfect I was referring more to plot details.

Take Blink for example. There's an amazing scene where two angels actually cross the street and hide in a blink. Later in the episode, just for plot convenience, they move much slower so they don't catch Sally and the guy. In the Big Bang, every Roman soldier dissapears... except Rory, for no specific reason. And so on.

Or, as showrunners, both Davies and Moff let certain scripts happen even though they needed serious rewrittes. And redesigns, like the Silurians, the iDaleks, etc.

However I know I'm usually extremely harsh when I analyze a TV series so some people may disagree with me.

With Moff, the stuff I like the most are the fairytale overtones. I'm surprised how much they nail this fantasy feel, while other shows totally fail to be convincing with more conventional fantasies.

I think, as it is right now, the show needs more space as well as time, and to be more serialized.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

In many ways Amy feels more like a real person then Rose, Martha and Donna.

I agree about Martha, but Rose and Donna were both fleshed out characters performed believably by their respective actors. Donna is particularly somebody I'm likely to meet, or may already know.

Amy is a great character, but for someone with a seemingly decent intelligence she had very little respect for herself, or her husband. She treats him like a buffoon while revering in her own sexuality and shamelessly flirting with the Doctor, every now and then with the slightest wink to the audience. That sounds like a textbook sitcom character to me.

I think, as it is right now, the show needs more space as well as time, and to be more serialized.

I tend to agree, but it's unlikely to happen as the current familiarity of locations and the ease to which one can drop in on any episode without missing much is a big drawing card to its success. Unfortunate as that may be.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Amy is a great character, but for someone with a seemingly decent intelligence she had very little respect for herself, or her husband. She treats him like a buffoon while revering in her own sexuality and shamelessly flirting with the Doctor, every now and then with the slightest wink to the audience. That sounds like a textbook sitcom character to me.

It sounds like women I have known and dated.

Amy, despite her intelligence and attitude seems fallible. I can imagine her one night getting blind drunk and waking up in a strange house with a guy she does not remember the name of.

[Wycket 36]

That's a bit unfair. What RTD achieved was nothing short of miraculous. He brought a show that had always been loved by a nerdy bunch of schoolboys (some in their 30s!) like me, and made it a beloved national treasure for everyone to watch. Also, many of the episodes produced during RTD's tenure contained some of the creepiest and most powerful oments in the entire history of the show. The Empty Child, The Impossible Planet, Silence in the Library, Blink, The Unquiet Dead... All amazing episodes produced by RTD. Not forgetting Torchwood and Sarah Jane Adventures, both of which I love. The man is a God as far as I'm concerned.

I was more concerned with Davies actual writing, and considering that none of the episodes you listed were written by him I assume that you're not a huge fan of his writing either (though I may be wrong). I admit that he has written a few good ones (Rose, Midnight, Christmas Invasion, Turn Left) but he has also written some of my least favorite of the new series (Love and Monsters, Journey's End, Last of the Time Lords, Aliens of London). It all comes down to the way he treats comedy. For me, I could always tell a Davies script because they were so full of camp that there would be parts that would just be unbearable. The End of Time is a great example of this, as there are some truly good things in that script and some truly awful ones. The whole stuff about Obama became so sickening that I was almost happy the Master took over his body. Then there was the Master himself, where the less said the better other than the fact that Jon Simm is much better than that material. To me, Davies biggest flaw was the inability to distinguish humor and camp. Yes the old show was certainly campy at time, but at heart they weren't trying to be. Davies purposely tried to inject that into the show and to me it always took me out of episodes where this was prevelant. The episodes listed above mostly work so well because camp is nearly if not completely absent from those episodes.

[Greg1138 3]

Personally, I'm just damn glad that either of them bothered in the first place.

[Brónach 1,302]

I don't know about Davies but to write this stuff doesn't seem to bother Moff at all

[Charlie Brigden 7]

Who wrote John Simm dancing to the Scissor Sisters? I was embarassed for the whole world when I watched that.

RTD did good by bringing Who back to the masses, but his writing itself was often cliched and poor, although Torchwood was even worse.

[Wycket 36]

Davies has written every episode with the Master

As for Davies, I'm glad he brought the show back, I just wish he'd treat the show with some dignity. He did it at times, but he always fell back into the camp.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

It had more than dignity, it had incredible success. If anyone else had tried to bring the series back we may have only seen a pilot episode before another unceremonious axing. I try to be thankful for these things. It's now a top-rating program and a global phenomenon. not bad for a show that previously was only watched by nerdy old men.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

So the short of it is that Who has never been perfect, and it probably never will be.

Oh, but the Philip Hinchcliffe years come pretty close...

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

So the short of it is that Who has never been perfect, and it probably never will be.

Oh, but the Philip Hinchcliffe years come pretty close...

We know what you think about Phil Hinchcliffe, Pixie; your avatar says it for you.

Full marks to Barry Letts, and Terrance Dicks for making the Jon Pertwee era utterly magnificent!

#When you're alone, silence is all around...#

[Wycket 36]

Glad you enjoyed the Pertwee era, but I always find myself bored to death watching most of his stories. No other doctor has that affect on me. I just never connected to his Doctor I guess. But I definitely am a fan of what Hinchcliffe brought to the series. Its amazing to think that the Daleks and Cybermen were only in a combined total of 3 stories throughout Tom's entire 7 year stint. Shows that they really had the creative juices flowing during that period. If only some of them were passed onto JNT.....

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Poor JNT. I actually believe he was just what the show needed when he started. Season 18 is really quite good. His approach throughout the Davison years was still quite stylish. He really should have been replaced at the end of Davison's era, though. He'd done 4 years and he had clearly run out of ideas by then. The C Baker and McCoy years really are about as bad as Doctor Who ever got. The absolute worst RTD stories are still head and shoulders over anything from those last 5 years of the original series.

[Wycket 36]

Can't argue with that. In what 4-5 seasons of Baker and McCoy, the only stories I like are Vengeance on Varos, Remembrance of the Daleks, and The Curse of Fenric. The documentary on The Trial of a Time Lord dvd really is insightful and shows how out of his depth JNT was by that point. As much as an idiot as that BBC controller might have been, considering the product that was and would be put out, I think he did the right thing in 85 and they should have just let the show die. They could have came back 5 years later with a whole new crew and perspective, but instead they came back and only made the show worse, further cementing that the format was done and a drastic shame needed to be taken. Unfortunately, it took 20 years for someone to realize that...

[pixie_twinkle 48]

True, but had the show been brought back sooner would it have been as good as it is today? Likewise, had the 1996 TV movie been a hit Stateside, it would have been made into a full series following that particular style, and the Doctor's half-human revelation would have become canon. As it is, the TV movie remains a historical oddity and we can choose to sweep the half-human drivel quietly under the carpet and pretend it never happened, or come up with some convoluted explanation as to why the Doctor "lied" at that moment in his regenerative process. Personally I think the show had to go through the dreadful late 80s, and the awful misfire of the TV movie, in order to come back shining and better than (almost) ever in 2005.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yet because of the strength of Paul McGann's performance, the TV movie can never be completely forgotten.

Who wrote John Simm dancing to the Scissor Sisters? I was embarassed for the whole world when I watched that.

Yeah it's those kind of excesses that never completely sold me on RTD as being a brilliant writer. Also I never liked his habbit of bringing back characters solely for the purpose of bringing them back (who was Rose's mum in season 4?). Also he likes to put so many supporting characters in his episodes sometimes that it is eating away valuable scene time from the lead characters. Why were the 2 green Aliens in The End Of Time? What's up with that rich multi-billionaire and all this stuff about wanting to make his daughter immortal? Why did we need to have that instead of more Timothy Dalton?

Moffat, despite not (yet) going for the emotion as much as RTD did is a far more clever and economic writer. We did not even see the Companions mother untill the last episode of season 5

[Naïve Old Fart 9,528]

Glad you enjoyed the Pertwee era, but I always find myself bored to death watching most of his stories. No other doctor has that affect on me. I just never connected to his Doctor I guess. But I definitely am a fan of what Hinchcliffe brought to the series. Its amazing to think that the Daleks and Cybermen were only in a combined total of 3 stories throughout Tom's entire 7 year stint. Shows that they really had the creative juices flowing during that period. If only some of them were passed onto JNT.....

Oddly enough, the only Doctor that I cannot connect with is Tom Baker, but to each his own.

The Pertwee era has many brilliant stories - "Inferno", "The Curse Of Peladon", "The Sea Devils", "The Deamons", "Frontier In Space", "The Silurans". O.k., so it has some shit - "Invasion Of The Dinosaurs", "Day Of/Planet Of/Death To The Daleks", but when it flies, it truly soars. Give it another go; you might be surprised...

Yet because of the strength of Paul McGann's performance, the TV movie can never be completely forgotten.

Who wrote John Simm dancing to the Scissor Sisters? I was embarassed for the whole world when I watched that.

Yeah it's those kind of excesses that never completely sold me on RTD as being a brilliant writer. Also I never liked his habbit of bringing back characters solely for the purpose of bringing them back (who was Rose's mum in season 4?). Also he likes to put so many supporting characters in his episodes sometimes that it is eating away valuable scene time from the lead characters. Why were the 2 green Aliens in The End Of Time? What's up with that rich multi-billionaire and all this stuff about wanting to make his daughter immortal? Why did we need to have that instead of more Timothy Dalton?

Moffat, despite not (yet) going for the emotion as much as RTD did is a far more clever and economic writer. We did not even see the Companions mother untill the last episode of season 5

"Who was Rose's mum?"? Do you mean who played her in series 29? The same actor who has always played her: Camille Cadouri.

P.s., "Doctor Who: The Movie" does not exist. Anywhere. At all.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

P.s., "Doctor Who: The Movie" does not exist. Anywhere. At all.

Not listening!

I must admit, I like Pertwee. He was my first Doctor, and I remember being very upset when he changed. I was only 3 or 4. Looking back over his era, the episodes all tend to be a little too long. BUT what a great cast of regulars! The Brig and the rest of UNIT are really established in the Pertwee era. Pertwee's three female companions are all excellent and memorable. Plus we got some great stories (see Richard's post above... even though his not liking Tom Baker renders any other opinion he has null and void )

[Greg1138 3]

For those who are able to view - the prequel has landed!

http://www.bbc.co.uk...videos/p00fxf06

Dammit! Why can I never get the hang of embedding videos??

Greg

Oh - PS - Pertwee and the rest played The Doctor well - but Baker WAS the Doctor....

Though Peter Davison came damn close...