The Doctor Who Thread.....

[Sweeping Strings 1,967]

Don't know why they can't maintain the 'through-line' of the Doctor offering adversaries the choice of quitting, leaving and not returning but if they don't make that choice the consequences are their own fault ('That's the sort of man I am ... no second chances' to quote Ten in his debut story, as he sends the Sycorax commander plummeting to his doom) across Doctors/stories. Doesn't seem that difficult, and is a fairly solid moral standpoint for the hero of a family show to have IMO.  

[MattyO 59]

The nightmare is over...

 

https://www.doctorwho.tv/news/?article=jodie-whittaker-chris-chibnall-leave-doctor-who

 

I hope, hope, hope this also means Segun Akinola is out and that Natalie Holt has her phone close by.

[Disco Stu 15,483]

Thank goodness Chibnall is out after this coming season.  It will be very interesting to see who they go with as a replacement.  I personally really like Whittaker and think it's just a shame her tenure will always be tied to such a crap showrunner.  She deserved better!

[Marian Schedenig 7,189]

I'd love for Whittaker to stay on. But at least (according to the reports) it was a 3 series deal and there's probably no hard feelings.

 

I thought the new trailer looks promising, but that may be deceiving - it's mainly Whittaker being her brilliant Doctor-self and not much else. A series long story (that's the current info I believe?) *could* play to Chibnall's strengths, but another apparent comic relief sidekick sounds more like yet another emphasis of his weaknesses.

[Docteur Qui 1,498]

It’d be ironic if this next series is one of the show’s best, which isn’t likely but also not outside the realm of possibility. As much as I’ve disliked Chibnall’s take on the show I’ve always held out hope that he would improve along the way. Having a single storyline for the next series is intriguing, and I’m always supportive of the showrunner shaking things up and taking risks with the format. Moffat tried it plenty (and failed often), but I’d argue that series 9 and its two-parter format was one of the show’s very best. I also appreciated the ambition of the Monk 3-parter in series 10 even if it didn’t quite stick the landing.

 

I can’t help but worry about the show’s future now. Even though I’m not displeased that Chibnall’s moving on there’s also no clear heir to the throne. By all accounts it sounds like a truly gruelling job that burnt out all three of the showrunners emotionally and creatively. The fan criticism alone would be unthinkable to deal with. I smell a hiatus on the horizon, which does not bode well as the show approaches its 60th year.

[Arpy 4,099]

I'm glad to see the response has been largely unanimous across the board, and I must say I feel disappointed for Whittaker. 

 

Bring on Michael Sheen!

[Sweeping Strings 1,967]

Yeah, consensus seems to be 'Oh well, you gave it your best shot' about Whittaker and 'YAY, he's going!' about Chibnall. Not (hopefully) having to sit through shit like Praxeus after next year will certainly be welcome.   

[Richard Penna 2,949]

My thoughts exactly - Chibnall was the big mistake with these two series, or more specifically, the decision that the show should be a weekly 'message'.

 

Although it does feel that only S12 really suffered from that - S11 had some decent stories and episodes.

 

I'd love to see Whittaker with a different showrunner, but clearly we won't get that. I'm not particularly fussed about Akinola - his music is a nice, fresh take, but if they get another composer for post-Whittaker, so be it.

[MattyO 59]

And in a phenomenally strange turn of events, Russell T Davies is returning as showrunner! I couldn't be more excited, especially if it means he brings Murray Gold back with him (and thus inspires Mr Gold to release the soundtrack to Series 10).

[Brónach 1,190]

RTD for the anniversary, yes

 

RTD as showrunner? Fuck no, down with showrunners in general, down with nostalgia, down with repetition and down with the 2005 format!

 

On 30/07/2021 at 12:52 PM, Richard Penna said:

I'd love to see Whittaker with a different showrunner, but clearly we won't get that.

 

Sad

 

On 29/07/2021 at 4:36 PM, MattyO said:

I hope, hope, hope this also means Segun Akinola is out and that Natalie Holt has her phone close by.

 

Natalie is cool. Or Hildur.

[mstrox 6,058]

 

4 minutes ago, Brónach said:

down with showrunners in general

?

[Marian Schedenig 7,189]

52 minutes ago, MattyO said:

And in a phenomenally strange turn of events, Russell T Davies is returning as showrunner! I couldn't be more excited, especially if it means he brings Murray Gold back with him (and thus inspires Mr Gold to release the soundtrack to Series 10).

 

Interesting. Perhaps not the most inspired idea, and it remains to be seen how much inspiration he has left (or since re-acquired) himself for the series, but after Chibnall he at least seems a comforting choice.

 

Shame Whittaker isn't going to do at least one series with him.

[Richard Penna 2,949]

The cynic in me wonders whether 'comforting choice' is the factor here. I don't see a lot of positive vibes for Chibnall's tenure around the interwebs (I would hope general feeling is closer to 'Chibnall ruined it') and maybe the BBC have picked up on that and decided Who needs to go back in terms of style.

[Marian Schedenig 7,189]

That's what I mean by "comforting". I would imagine RTD stands for a step back from Chibnall's "for the whole family" approach with too many characters and too little hard and back to something that has camp, thread, and heart turned up to 11. Whether that's an ideal long-term (and/or) choice remains to be seen, but at least it should mean the series doesn't simply fizzle out because everybody got terminally bored with it.

[Naïve Old Fart 8,673]

Bringing back a showrunner has been done before, so I've nothing against the idea.

I want to hang out the banners, and have a jelly and ice cream party, but, in reality, I'm approaching this with cautious optimism.

Potential pluses:

1/ sense of fun returning

2/ Murray Gold returning

3/ a male Doctor

4/ great writing and good  stories

5/ no weekly "message"

6/ dynamic companions

 

                ...and...

 

Potential minuses:

1/ how has RTD changed in the intervening 13 years?

2/ what kind of influences is the 6th floor exerting?

3/ what is RTD's agenda.

 

Right now, though, I'm happy. Auntie did quite well...quite well 

 

[Marian Schedenig 7,189]

11 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

3/ a male Doctor

 

I'd be happy with Phoebe Waller-Bridge or Olivia Colman. I'd be happy with Michael Sheen, too. (Absolutely no idea what the current rumours are at all)

 

Different question: Why has nobody brought in Jared Harris as the Master yet? (Colman would be an interesting choice, too)

[Naïve Old Fart 8,673]

1 hour ago, Marian Schedenig said:

(Absolutely no idea what the current rumours are at all)

For a long time, Kris Marshall has been the bookie's favourite.

Colman? She was Prisoner Zero, so that might be a problem.

Waller-Bridge? Absolutely not!!!!!!!!!

Michael Sheen would be a fantastic choice. Not too many people would remember him from THE DOCTOR'S WIFE, so that'd work.

1 hour ago, Marian Schedenig said:

Why has nobody brought in Jared Harris as the Master yet?

What's wrong with Sacha Dhawan?

[mstrox 6,058]

Waller Bridge has a kooky energy I’d like to see.  Don’t care if the next Doctor is male or female or non-binary, but I guarantee the discourse will be irritating regardless.

[Brónach 1,190]

2 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

I'd be happy with Phoebe Waller-Bridge or Olivia Colman. I'd be happy with Michael Sheen, too. (Absolutely no idea what the current rumours are at all)

 

Different question: Why has nobody brought in Jared Harris as the Master yet? (Colman would be an interesting choice, too)

 

I see the Michael Sheen proposal and I'll add: gay and in Welsh!

 

I like the others as well.

 

4 hours ago, mstrox said:

?

 

They're probably not the best model for this show to work.

 

Honestñy my biggest problem with RTD is that he might not change the format at all, that he's Dalek-obsessed (If I were queen of DW, I'd ban Daleks, the Master, Cybermen, everything), and that he might just keep doing earth and modern-day stuff which I would avoid on purpose. Or maybe, I'm wrong about all those!

[mstrox 6,058]

But showrunners are essentially just head writers who also function as producers.  Literally all shows have a showrunner. For the most part, it’s just been behind the scenes/less publicly known until ~20 years ago.

[Brónach 1,190]

It doesn't feel like they're working with a real writer's room. This also affected the Moffat era. Shooting what look like first drafts, stuff abandoned or contradicted from episode to episode (character stuff most of it), having the showrunner write a ton of episodes despite the apparent decrease in quality for no reason, etc

[Naïve Old Fart 8,673]

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

But showrunners are essentially just head writers who also function as producers.

Not so, Mike.

Letts and Dicks changed DW for the better, by having The Doctor exiled to Earth, and creating both U.N.I.T., and The Master, Hinchcliffe took the show into very dark, Gothic territory, and Williams made it do a 1-80, and emphasised goofy comedy.

Every showrunner marks DW with their own personal stamp.

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Brónach said:

(if I were queen of DW, I'd ban Daleks, the Master, Cybermen, everything), and that he might just keep doing earth and modern-day stuff which I would avoid on purpose. Or maybe, I'm wrong about all those!

I think that DW can survive with a health balance of classic and new enemies, and Earthbound, modern, historical, and cosmic stories.

It's not what you have, it's what you do with it, that counts.

[mstrox 6,058]

29 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Not so, Mike.

Letts and Dicks changed DW for the better, by having The Doctor exiled to Earth, and creating both U.N.I.T., and The Master, Hinchcliffe took the show into very dark, Gothic territory, and Williams made it do a 1-80, and emphasised goofy comedy.

Every showrunner marks DW with their own personal stamp.

I think especially in geeky circles, people have known showrunners.  I’m sure Trekkers debated the relative merits of the different showrunners in bygone eras.  There are also showrunners who made headlines in, say, the pre-Sopranos era.  Off the top of my head, Bochco/NYPD Blue, Dick Wolf/Law and Order.  It seems like in the late 1990s or so, showrunners moved out of the writers room and into the forefront/promotion.

[Arpy 4,099]

8 hours ago, MattyO said:

And in a phenomenally strange turn of events, Russell T Davies is returning as showrunner! I couldn't be more excited, especially if it means he brings Murray Gold back with him (and thus inspires Mr Gold to release the soundtrack to Series 10).

This is a bright spot of news in such dark times. Davies' era was my favourite, he always knew how to inject the show with the right amount of humour, warmth, darkness, campiness without ever going too far in one direction.

[Docteur Qui 1,498]

The good news just keeps coming doesn't it! Wasn't expecting that.

 

Calling it now. RTD will shepherd in a new era for Who. He'll be a Kevin Feige figure, overseeing new writers and showrunners with spin-offs etc. He was doing Who shared-universe years before Marvel, and now that's what audiences are expecting. 

 

Haven't been this excited for the show since Moffat was announced as the showrunner. Hope has returned.

[Marian Schedenig 7,189]

8 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

What's wrong with Sacha Dhawan?

 

He represents too many of Chibnall's shortcomings for me. He's too goofy, too random, too camp to be taken seriously (as in: a serious threat) to me.

 

2 hours ago, Arpy said:

This is a bright spot of news in such dark times. Davies' era was my favourite, he always knew how to inject the show with the right amount of humour, warmth, darkness, campiness without ever going too far in one direction.

 

I'm not sure I'd agree with not ever going too far. But he never went too too far. I'd rather have a bit too far than Chibnall's current not nearly far enough.

8 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

For a long time, Kris Marshall has been the bookie's favourite.

 

I've only seen him in two films and only remember him in one of those but hey, I can imagine Colin (God of Sex) as The Doctor.

[Naïve Old Fart 8,673]

@Marian Schedenig

Are you saying that Dhawan is more camp than Simm?

Is he more camp than Eric "I always dress for the occasion" Roberts?

[Sweeping Strings 1,967]

Very happy re the RTD re-hiring news ... be great if Doctor Who regains its 'snap', swagger and sense of fun as a result. Writers from his initial era returning (and Murray Gold) wouldn't hurt, either. 

Wondering if this increases Michael Sheen's chances of being the 14th Doctor in a *Welshies together* stylee. He topped a recent Radio Times 'next Doctor' poll. 

Does the RTD announcement being made before the last of Chibnall's eps have even aired tell us what the Beeb REALLY think of his tenure? Hard not to see it that way, I must say.       

[mstrox 6,058]

5 minutes ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Does the RTD announcement being made before the last of Chibnall's eps have even aired tell us what the Beeb REALLY think of his tenure? Hard not to see it that way, I must say.       

They announced Moffat  in May 2008: Davies’ run didn’t end until January 2010.

They announced Chibnall in January 2016; Moffat’s run didn’t end until December 2017.

 

It’s just business.  Contracts inked, announcement made.  Hard to keep it a secret otherwise.

[Brónach 1,190]

I like Sacha Dhawan I just don like Chibnall.

[DarthDementous 996]

Well this is rather crazy news.

 

RTD’s tenure was in my eyes the absolute peak of Doctor Who, and I remember pining for him to return multiple times (even if I did grow to appreciate Moffat’s time and direction quite a bit) but always thought it was a pipe-dream - so this is very surreal.

 

I can’t think of any cases where the original showrunner has come back, so from a creative standpoint alone I’m very excited to see how this pans out. To have started the direction of the show and now to be given back the reins after it’s gone off in so many different directions is a fascinating creative endeavour.

 

If anyone has any doubts about RTD’s current writing abilities, I recommend you check out the recent ‘Years and Years’ which amusingly also has Murray Gold as composer.

 

I have zero concerns about agenda mostly because of how his Doctor Who and Torchwood handled social issues with absolute class. It was genuinely progressive without being in your face or lecturing about it and I think it still stands as a shining example of how to handle these things.

[Brónach 1,190]

I hope he doesn't treat rainbow characters as a joke like back then. (Or was it Moffat? Moffat at least seems to have gotten better ABOUT IT, at least inside DW)

[mstrox 6,058]

23 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

I can’t think of any cases where the original showrunner has come back, so from a creative standpoint alone I’m very excited to see how this pans out.

For a variety of reasons but mainly because of disputes with cast member Chevy Chase, Dan Harmon was let go from Community for season 4, and then he returned for all subsequent seasons after Chase left the show.

 

The original showrunner of Dexter left mid-run and is coming back for the reboot.  
 

One could argue from writing staff recollections at the time that David Lynch (who was always credited as an EP) essentially left in season 2 of Twin Peaks and then came back for the return.

[Naïve Old Fart 8,673]

The (strictly unofficial) word is that RTD is hoping to cast someone called Olly Alexander, as The Doctor.

[DarthDementous 996]

2 hours ago, mstrox said:

For a variety of reasons but mainly because of disputes with cast member Chevy Chase, Dan Harmon was let go from Community for season 4, and then he returned for all subsequent seasons after Chase left the show.

 

The original showrunner of Dexter left mid-run and is coming back for the reboot.  
 

One could argue from writing staff recollections at the time that David Lynch (who was always credited as an EP) essentially left in season 2 of Twin Peaks and then came back for the return.

Ah of course, David Lynch in Twin Peaks is a great example of this. That very much worked out for the better I think, particularly when he came back in full force for The Return.

 

 

I just listened to this great podcast from 9 months ago with Russel T Davies on his experience and values when it comes to writing, particularly children’s media: https://m.soundcloud.com/ootbc/ootbc_015

 

I think this more than anything is what convinced me that he’s going to be the perfect successor, so much of what annoys him in writing is what the current era of Doctor Who is doing. Some of his personal anecdotes display a rather marvellous integrity too, and he’s also quite humble but not to the point of absurdity - he knows when he’s done a good job which is just as important as knowing when you’ve done a bad one.

[Marian Schedenig 7,189]

6 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

@Marian Schedenig

Are you saying that Dhawan is more camp than Simm?

 

To me, yes (or rather, his Master under Chibnall is), even though Simm also often went a bit too far for me.

 

6 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Is he more camp than Eric "I always dress for the occasion" Roberts?

 

I don't remember Roberts - or pretty much anything from the film, although I've seen it. And admittedly I've never seen any of the earlier Masters, so perhaps the character is supposed to be more over the top than I'd like. But I liked the threat and power projected by Jacobi and by Simm in his less campy moments, and Missy was deranged enough to be (often) more threatening than goofy.

[Brónach 1,190]

Michelle is my favourite

[Docteur Qui 1,498]

If Michelle Gomez hadn't utterly nailed it as Missy already she'd be my number one pick as the Doctor. She is positively magnetic, impossible to take your eyes off her. 

[Brónach 1,190]

Exactly.

[eitam 345]

Davies returning is probably good news... It will be interesting to see how he does Doctor Who 20 years later. Maybe he'll bring back Murray Gold too, oh and that Steven Moffat guy who always wrote the best episodes of seasons 1-4...

[DarthDementous 996]

If anyone hasn't seen this yet, then this is probably the best insight as to where RTD's head is at concerning Doctor Who right now: 

Considering Murray Gold made music for this, this strongly indicates he is not done with Doctor Who at least when Russel T Davies is involved.

[Naïve Old Fart 8,673]

Ok, guys, what the chuffin' 'eck, is "the flux"?

[Tallguy 2,160]

12 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Ok, guys, what the chuffin' 'eck, is "the flux"?

 

You know, Moffat tired me out with the mystery box and he was pretty good at it. Chibnall is not, so I can't quite bring myself to care. 

 

I'm hoping it will be good. I've never found Jodie to be anything less than great. But I can hardly remember anything but a handful of episodes. 

[DarthDementous 996]

No clue! It has something to do with the Weeping Angels, the Sontarans and the Ravagers (Big Finish alien). Very eclectic mix of creatures, not sure what their central link to the phenomenon is. This might be the first time an alien that was introduced in Expanded Material first has appeared in the actual show which is kind of neat.

In preparation for RTD's return I've watched his most recent drama series 'It's A Sin' which was just brilliant. I adore the way he writes characters and even exposition is delivered with such style and class, you can tell this is a topic that RTD practically lived through so it comes across as incredibly genuine and honest. It's given me a completely newfound appreciation for the gay community, and that's a testament to the power of media that I was able to even have the opportunity to see things from that perspective.

In addition to that I've also been reading RTD's 'The Writer's Tale' which is a candid look at the creative writing process behind Doctor Who during Russel's era with lots of gems about how RTD approaches writing and how unlike other writing self-help books, doesn't lay down any hard guidelines. It's a wonderful exploration into how creativity works, it's not a rigid set of rules, it's a constantly evolving and permanent back and forth with your brain and your experiences of the world. One particular gem is how RTD says that he never chooses a theme first before coming up with a story, instead he says it's an inevitability that whatever he writes will have his voice and perspective. I get the feeling for a lot of the Chibnall episodes the theme was chosen first which is perhaps why it feels so inorganic.

RTD is an immensely fascinating person and a rather wonderful writer, I can't wait to see his return to the show.

[Sweeping Strings 1,967]

Flux knows! Thang yew thang yew, I'm here all week. 

As we know, this series is to be a 6-episode one with one story arc ... Sontarans, Weeping Angels and Ravagers (and there are Dalek rumours too) seems like a lot of adversaries for so short a run (that said, maybe the eps are an hour rather than 45 minutes this time round). And the more battling of threats, the less room for 'preaching' I guess.    

[Richard Penna 2,949]

The 'preaching' only struck me as actually distracting in series 12. Series 11 had a little bit of it in some stories perhaps, but it was usually subtle. The worst I can say about S11 is some stories were a bit dull, whereas Chibnall basically ruined Who with S12, where he was clearly selecting an issue of the week and writing something around it.

 

I really hope that the BBC saw the negative reaction and realised Chibnall is wrong for the show, as motivation for bringing RTD back.

[Naïve Old Fart 8,673]

2 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Flux knows! Thang yew thang yew, I'm here all week.

Flux you, muthafluxa! 

 

 

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

I really hope that the BBC saw the negative reaction and realised Chibnall is wrong for the show, as motivation for bringing RTD back.

This probably didn't happen.

Apparently, Whittaker and Chibnall always had a "three years and out" agreement, with Auntie. That's the official reason, anyway.

 

If flux means "movement", then it could mean that the whole of time and space is in a state of fluidity, which could throw up some interesting possibilities...or it could be the name of some entity, rather like The Silence.

[Tom Guernsey 1,965]

I'm clearly less bothered by any perceptions that the show is being preachy or woke as it's often done stuff like that, just with varying degrees of subtlety, but it's certainly just less interesting somehow than it used to be. I can never quite put my finger on it. Having started re-watching the Peter Capaldi years, I'm really enjoying it; even if the premise of each episode isn't any more interesting than many of the Whittaker episodes, the writing is so much better so it's less about the premise and more about the characters.

 

Rewatching it also reminds me how much I miss Murray Gold's music. I really do hope RTD brings him back... given he's score RTD's other recent shows, this seems like a fairly solid bet. Then they can start doing Dr Who Proms again (let's face it, who's gonna stump up to watch a concert of Segun Akinola's music?!)

[Naïve Old Fart 8,673]

12 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

(...who's gonna stump up to watch a concert of Segun Akinola's music?!)

Not I, but I would stump up to hear a concert of music by the likes of Tristan Carey, Dudley Simpson, Peter Howell, Malcolm Clarke, Keff McCullough, Mark Ayers, and Roger Limb.

[Disco Stu 15,483]

I gotta admit I stopped watching Chibnall's show before the end of his first series because it was boring the hell out of me.   I'm the rare person whose favorite era is the Moffat-Capaldi and my favorite series of the entire revived era is series 9, which holds up so well to rewatches.