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The Doctor Who Thread.....


Greg1138
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19 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Have a Jelly Baby! :D

Have you got the other 4th Doctor scarf, the "shades of red" one?

 

 

 

 

 


I have not ... although last night I watched the first 2 episodes of Full Circle, in which Tom is sporting same. And then Asylum Of the Daleks, with young Mr Smith. 

Favourite bit from the latter ... when he calls a Dalek with a malfunctioning gun 'just a tricycle with a roof' then uses the sonic (after it has triggered its self-destruct countdown)  to send it reversing into a roomful of Daleks, blowing them all to hell. Proper 'punch the air' stuff. No complaints about Karen Gillan and Jenna Coleman both being in the episode, either :lovethis: .  

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Maybe I should revisit the later Smith years. Watching them as they aired it had the feeling of such a high wire act ("Oh yeah? Watch THIS!") that it was sometimes hard to appreciate the stories as anything other than the latest puzzle piece.

 

Funny enough the one Moffat season (after 11's first) that I just loved watching the episodes as they came (and not worrying about what they were leading to) as well as just watching The Doctor was 12's last season.

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Really hoped this week's would be good, and some of the Angels stuff was interesting.

 

Unfortunately I neither understand nor care what 'Division' is, or whatever's going on with that side of the plot. Far too much technobabble too.

 

I'm so glad Chibnall is on the way out.

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3 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Took a notion for the Tennant 'n' Tate Silence In The Library/Forest Of The Dead 2-parter yesterday afternoon. 

A cracker, but you knew that already. Moffat's writing in conjunction with RTD's showrunning really was a kind of Doctor Who 'sweet spot'. 

 

My favorite episodes of all time.

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SURVIVORS OF THE FLUX is the worst episode of Doctor Who I have personally seen. That was an actual headache to watch, it's like Chibnall felt he had to one-up himself in regards to naff concurrent plotlines from THE HALLOWEEN APOCALYPSE, and by the time they'd jumped to the 9th geographical location I just wanted it to end already. The humor was such a misfire, the throughline (if there even is one) very hard to follow, and previously established characters were used in a way that seriously had me scratching my head as to why they had even bothered introducing them earlier. It's starting to get to the point that RTD is just going to need to reboot the whole universe because this is doing some incredibly strange and seemingly irreversible things.

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Can't help noticing that the page on RT has a critic score of 90% but an audience score of 39% with a lot of 1-stars.

 

Are reviewers trying to kid themselves that this has been a good series, while normal viewers are being honest?

 

The only good thing that will come out of this series will be the score release.

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Flux has been better than the last two series combined, which isn't saying much, but it's how I feel about it. That said, it pales dismally in comparison to the rest of the revival, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of those critics are just general, Marvel-fed content-reviewers with little familiarity with the show (or at least pre-2005 Who).

 

If you removed Flux from its nearly 60 years of history, it's a vaguely entertaining, nice-looking, but unimaginative young adult sci-fi show in the vein of other generic streaming properties on the market. But as the legacy of one of the most beloved longest-running sci-fi properties of all time it's just.... there.

 

I didn't mind the latest episode. It's pretty bonkers, and at least it wasn't boring like so much of Chibnall's stuff is. It had some wonderful visuals, and the Yaz team were pretty entertaining if ultimately meaningless - Except for that cringe-inducing scene with the guru atop the mountain, it's like all the worst Marvel banter but... worse. I still think Village of the Angels is the highlight of the show since Moffat left and I doubt that will change before RTD2.

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11 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

Flux has been better than the last two series combined, which isn't saying much, but it's how I feel about it. That said, it pales dismally in comparison to the rest of the revival, and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of those critics are just general, Marvel-fed content-reviewers with little familiarity with the show (or at least pre-2005 Who).

 

If you removed Flux from its nearly 60 years of history, it's a vaguely entertaining, nice-looking, but unimaginative young adult sci-fi show in the vein of other generic streaming properties on the market. But as the legacy of one of the most beloved longest-running sci-fi properties of all time it's just.... there.

 

I didn't mind the latest episode. It's pretty bonkers, and at least it wasn't boring like so much of Chibnall's stuff is. It had some wonderful visuals, and the Yaz team were pretty entertaining if ultimately meaningless - Except for that cringe-inducing scene with the guru atop the mountain, it's like all the worst Marvel banter but... worse. I still think Village of the Angels is the highlight of the show since Moffat left and I doubt that will change before RTD2.

Remove Flux from the 60 years of show history and it would cease to exist entirely. I don’t envy casual or new viewers, especially since I’m neither and still constantly scratching my head due to the presentation.

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This isn't top tier Doctor Who, but most of Doctor Who is not that either.

 

But I'm having a blast. No, I still don't dig the "The Doctor was the first Timelord" nonsense. But whatever. I'm having fun watching The Doctor. I'm having fun watching the Companions on their own adventure. I'm having a lot of fun going week to week.

 

It's Doctor Who and I'm having FUN! I didn't think that would happen anymore!

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Village Of The Angels 'overnight' audience figures were around 3.5 million ... now I'd argue that on a Sunday evening in the UK in November, the vast majority of the population are at home. DW clearly isn't 'first choice' amongst the viewing options of those who are home at the time any more ... so much for Chibnall's assertion that the drama audience is 'bigger' on Sunday evenings.

Only for Line Of Duty, mate. Sorry.   

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I don't think Who is a Sunday evening show - it's partly why I constantly forget to watch it (that, and I'm just not excited for his episodes).

 

Certainly far more people are at home on Sunday evening than Sat, but judging viewing figures purely by 'live' viewers is a bit archaic now. I watch everything on Iplayer, and the only 'programme' I watch live is the news. The idea of watching something on a schedule now feels laughable.

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2 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

Village Of The Angels 'overnight' audience figures were around 3.5 million ...

Even Sylvester McCoy was pulling down more than that, and he was in direct competition with Corrie!

 

2 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

...so much for Chibnall's assertion that the drama audience is 'bigger' on Sunday evenings.

It depends upon what's showing. CALL THE MIDWIFE regularly pulls in 8-10 million, and all those adult dramas, on at 9pm (THE VIGIL, etc.), attract huge audiences.

DW has always been seen as the curtain-raiser to the evening. Of course, when your evening's viewing included THE GENERATION GAME, MORECAMBE AND WISE, THE TWO RONNIES, PARKY, and MOTD, you couldn't really go wrong.

@Richard Penna is right: viewing habits have changed so much, so it's possibly unfair to judge the show on 3.5 mil...unless everyone else who didn't watch it, knows something we don't :lol:

THE CURSE OF FENRIC pulled in about the same, and that is a stone cold DW classic.

If you ask me (and you haven't), the show is, simply, not very good. I feel for Whittaker. Under someone else, she could have flown, but the current showrunner, has demonstrated, time and time again, that he has neither knowledge of, nor respect for DW. Ah, well, there's only 1 episode, and 3 "specials", to go...

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I mean, a good chunk of the audience of DW are younger people who likely watch using catch-up or streaming services, which are never counted in the overnights. Call the Midwife, Vigil etc all attract a more traditional older audience I imagine.

 

With that in mind, those are still pretty poor ratings, and may indicate that older audience has well and truly departed. We'll probably see a big jump on New Year's Day in 2023 when Jodie regenerates and we get our first glimpse of RTD2's Doctor. I predict his premiere will also attract some BIG, 2009 numbers.

 

Also I hope we see a return of the Christmas specials, it's not the same without them. I'm teeing up Last Christmas this year, god that was a great episode.

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We watch on Mondays because that's when I can buy it here in the States.

 

Christmas specials: Yeah, I miss wrapping up Christmas day with an adult beverage and Doctor Who. Of course now the family watches with me but still.

 

We're trying to hit a few We watched The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe the other night. One of the best Christmas specials. My daughter's favorite is 11, my son's is 10 (because 10 is also Scrooge McDuck!) so we'll probably watch a 10 next. I think we watched Voyage of the Damned last year so we might watch Runaway Bride. I'm not as much of a fan of The Next Doctor and the other ones are regeneration episodes.

 

When it's my pick we'll probably go with either Last Christmas or The Husbands of River Song.

 

We might watch a regeneration Christmas. We've watched Time of the Doctor a LOT.

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A Christmas Carol is my personal favourite of the whole bunch. It looks gorgeous, it’s rollickingly fun, emotional, fiendishly clever and just a tiny bit cheesy. Moffat, Smith and Gold were firing on all cylinders at that point, following the phenomenal Series 5. I try not to watch it too often because it’s best enjoyed as it was intended: with a full belly and a few too many drinks.

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I've felt that the last two series of Doctor Who have been a mixed bag, but I've been enjoying Flux more than not! Some parts of it feel like the show I once loved, and it's a shame it's starting to get interesting this final season.

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We're at the point of wrapping up the season and it feels that there's nothing to hook onto, to think on... ponder. I just don't care about what happens to most of the non-core characters.

 

It would probably have worked better as a normal series of standaloe episodes. As it stands, the story and overall arc just isn't strong enough to maintain dramatic interest across an entire series, and it needed to be for Flux to work.

 

Bring on the album release :) 

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3 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

For Christmas specials, nothing beats THE CHRISTMAS INVASION. Pure joy...with a sting in the tail.


It's probably one of the shortest appearances (in terms of being 'up and about') by a new Doctor in his first full episode, but when you're as good as Tennant it makes no difference ... by the end of those 15 minutes or so, he IS the Doctor. Lion King and Hitchhiker's Guide references and ruthless streak ('no second chances') and all. 

Would be fine with me if RTD moves the specials back to Christmas Day and the show itself back to Saturday evenings, all *Watch me get 10 million again, bitches!*. lol.    

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No-one stamped his own identity so quickly, or emphatically, as Tennant. He did an amazing job.

As a longform story, Flux holds neither my interest, nor attention, in the same way that The Dalek's Masterplan, The War Games, and, even The Trial Of A Time Lord, still do. Put simply, do not care. I'm just waiting for this whole mess to be over (get it, @Thor :)).

It's really sad to watch my all-time favourite piece of entertainment of any kind, disintegrating before my eyes, over the course of three years.

I just hope that R.T.D. can save D.W. from this quagmire?

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5 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

For Christmas specials, nothing beats THE CHRISTMAS INVASION. Pure joy...with a sting in the tail.

 

Too much of it is spent waiting for the Doctor. A common post-regeneration trope. Yes when he shows up it's a tour de force.

 

2 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

No-one stamped his own identity so quickly, or emphatically, as Tennant.

 

Tom Baker. And I'd argue Matt Smith.

 

2 hours ago, Sweeping Strings said:

It's probably one of the shortest appearances (in terms of being 'up and about') by a new Doctor in his first full episode

 

I keep meaning to check my impression of how often this actually happened. The Doctor is either not there or "not himself" for a whack of the episode. Pertwee, Davison, Colin Baker (kinda), Tenant, Capaldi.

 

2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

We're at the point of wrapping up the season and it feels that there's nothing to hook onto, to think on... ponder. I just don't care about what happens to most of the non-core characters.

 

Yeah, if they can't stick the landing then it really has been for just about nothing. But hey, that NEVER happens.

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Well, 10 minutes into Survivors of the Flux and it's not going massively well.

 

The gang seem to be on the Titanic (or something that looks like it - it only has three funnels) trying to find the date of some future battle on earth, the Doctor is, or is not an Angel, and as for 'Division'.... god knows.

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58 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Well, 10 minutes into Survivors of the Flux and it's not going massively well.

 

The gang seem to be on the Titanic (or something that looks like it - it only has three funnels) trying to find the date of some future battle on earth, the Doctor is, or is not an Angel, and as for 'Division'.... god knows.

 

It's 1904,so not Titanic. 

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It's 1904, and two modern people plus a doc from the 60s, who fell backwards in time with nothing more than what's in their pockets, are able to travel around the world to multiple exotic locations. We're supposed to believe they can do this using whatever future money they had on them, or can scrounge from bartering or knowledge of said future. 

 

It's absurd. 

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Not to mention that the Great Wall of China can't be seen like that from space. (and what are the chances that Dog-Guy just happens to be in exactly the right place...)

 

Yeah, the logical plot holes in this series are pretty stupid. It's just lazy writing from Chibnall, trying to make complex stories without the skill or patience to believably link them together.

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It's not like the historically accurate writing where the United Nations held the codes to the UK's nuclear arsenal and the Brits had to ask pretty please to be able to use them. 

 

We ARE still watching Doctor Who, right? 

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2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Not to mention that the Great Wall of China can't be seen like that from space. (and what are the chances that Dog-Guy just happens to be in exactly the right place...)

 

Yeah, the logical plot holes in this series are pretty stupid. It's just lazy writing from Chibnall, trying to make complex stories without the skill or patience to believably link them together.

 

Well, to be fair, our primary Lupari was viewing the painted message on his display. We don't know his camera zoom capabilities. 

 

But that scene has terrible editing. Watch it again. When they start painting, only the young guy has a beard. The scientist is clean shaven. By the time they finish painting the message, the old man has a full white beard in only one shot, making him look like David Letterman does now. I don't think we see him again in the episode because the attention switches to space. 

 

Did it take three+ months to paint that mess? Really? 

 

Terrible. 

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2 hours ago, Tallguy said:

It's not like the historically accurate writing where the United Nations held the codes to the UK's nuclear arsenal and the Brits had to ask pretty please to be able to use them. 

 

We ARE still watching Doctor Who, right? 

Pointing at something else that’s bad doesn’t make the initial thing not bad.

 

Suspension of disbelief is on a case by case basis too, I haven’t seen WORLD WAR THREE in a while (assuming that’s what you meant) so I can’t speak to how that detail interacts with the episode.

 

In the case of SURVIVORS OF THE FLUX though, the reason why the historical inaccuracy of absurdly fast travel is distracting is twofold. Firstly, the fact that travel by boat was extraordinarily slow compared to plane travel I’d say is general knowledge rather than an esoteric fact - meaning a wide audience is going to be aware of the discrepancy. Secondly, all this historical contradiction achieves is facilitating an incredibly convoluted and hard to follow plot due to how many times the location switches. If historical travel times were obeyed, this wouldn’t be a problem and the narrative would be forced to stick to a few locations and actually spend its time establishing the setting and stakes for the Dan and Yaz group.

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Disclaimer: I'm not that committed to this. (Doctor Who, yes. This sequence of events, no.)

 

But it was clear that we were seeing a sequence of events that took months if not years. That was part of the fun. (See, Peter Jackson? Things can take time in the narrative without happening on screen!)

 

I did remark on Jericho's lack of a beard when Dan had one. Then Jericho had one. I'm not sure if this was a miss or if it was showing how long it took to make something that could be seen from space.

 

The one huge mess up was having the Brig be a corporal in 1967. Even given that Spearhead from Space might have taken place in the late 70's.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Disclaimer: I'm not that committed to this. (Doctor Who, yes. This sequence of events, no.)

 

But it was clear that we were seeing a sequence of events that took months if not years. That was part of the fun. (See, Peter Jackson? Things can take time in the narrative without happening on screen!)

 

I did remark on Jericho's lack of a beard when Dan had one. Then Jericho had one. I'm not sure if this was a miss or if it was showing how long it took to make something that could be seen from space.

 

The one huge mess up was having the Brig be a corporal in 1967. Even given that Spearhead from Space might have taken place in the late 70's.

 

 

Well we kept getting the year for each location in the iconic Impact font, from what I recall it was like a year of travel max for all the locations they went to?

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9 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

Well we kept getting the year for each location in the iconic Impact font, from what I recall it was like a year of travel max for all the locations they went to?

 

Well... There was a former Doctor who went around the world in 80 days.

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9 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Disclaimer: I'm not that committed to this. (Doctor Who, yes. This sequence of events, no.)

 

But it was clear that we were seeing a sequence of events that took months if not years. That was part of the fun. (See, Peter Jackson? Things can take time in the narrative without happening on screen!)

 

You know, I like the ambition Chibnall's gone for in this latter part - the companions being trapped in the past for years, the Doc facing a threat to the entire universe - it's like Blink turned up to a million.

 

One just wishes that he had the ingenuity and attention to detail to pull it all together and make it work such that we're not sitting here dicussing the myriad of plot holes and implausibilities, but instead debating the actual story and whatever the moral conundrum is.

 

Those two evil characters in that makeup, and the two younger guy/gal - not following their storyline at all. I wish we could be focusing more on the companions and their story instead.

 

Perhaps if the entire series could have covered what just the first episode did. How cool would it have been to go most of the series following Bishop's 'kidnap', and then get a Sixth-Sense-style twist where we find out about the Flux, and that actually humanity was being rescued. Then all the explanation around 'Division' and all the other crap can be much more focused.

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On 03/12/2021 at 12:53 AM, Richard Penna said:

 

You know, I like the ambition Chibnall's gone for in this latter part - the companions being trapped in the past for years, the Doc facing a threat to the entire universe - it's like Blink turned up to a million.

 

One just wishes that he had the ingenuity and attention to detail to pull it all together and make it work such that we're not sitting here dicussing the myriad of plot holes and implausibilities, but instead debating the actual story and whatever the moral conundrum is.

 

Those two evil characters in that makeup, and the two younger guy/gal - not following their storyline at all. I wish we could be focusing more on the companions and their story instead.

 

Perhaps if the entire series could have covered what just the first episode did. How cool would it have been to go most of the series following Bishop's 'kidnap', and then get a Sixth-Sense-style twist where we find out about the Flux, and that actually humanity was being rescued. Then all the explanation around 'Division' and all the other crap can be much more focused.

It really comes across as a full episodic series of Doctor Who that got compressed and forced into a serialised format.

 

I was excited to see a Doctor Who season take a more CHILDREN OF EARTH approach and develop the hell out of a single scenario, but instead it’s taken on more scenarios then ever before and thus only been able to grant a low level of exploration to each.

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I'm going to disagree. Looking back at the Great Serials of Classic Who I can remember series like Genesis of the Daleks or Invasion of Time. I never watched them week to week when they aired but thankfully I did see them daily on my local PBS. (Later they showed the Pertwee episodes as "movies". Those stories are NOT meant to hold your attention for four hours!)

 

Those stories ran all over the place!

 

With The Flux I think there might be a couple of threads / characters that I needed a recap when they brought them back. (I forgot about the old fellow in the tunnels in Liverpool.) But otherwise I think they're keeping all the balls in the air. My biggest complaint is that the Division story is making The Doctor THE MOST IMPORTANT PERSON IN THE UNIVERSE. Again. But I've decided that I don't care about that part and it's all good.

 

Did anyone else realize that Kevin McNally was in The Twin Dilemma?

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Who knows what the Cartmel Masterplan would have revealed about The Doctor?

 

 

 

20 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Did anyone else realize that Kevin McNally was in The Twin Dilemma?

Of course I did. Why do you think I posted...

 

On 24/11/2021 at 5:16 AM, Naïve Old Fart said:

@pixie_twinkle

I'd rather watch The Twin Dilemma, than this tripe

?

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5 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Who knows what the Cartmel Masterplan would have revealed about The Doctor?

 

That sounded terrible too. There are certainly mysteries you can make up about the Doctor that aren't "Everything you know is wrong!" 

 

Hell, have the Doctor show up 3,000 years older. THEN start making up regenerations in the middle.

5 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Of course I did. Why do you think I posted...

 

?

 

I couldn't get my head around the statement. 😊 I'm finding I have a love hate relationship with classic Who these days. It really lives and dies on the performances because that's all it's got. 

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And so the Flux comes to an end. In typical fashion of most of the episodes, the finale was a rushed mess that tried to handle more than 4 concurrent plotlines in completely separate locations that then clumsily converge. And what the hell was that editing, cuts happened so quickly that it started to look like characters were teleporting into their next scene.

 

I don't know what exactly happened behind the scenes, and I suspect a lot of it is due to COVID disruptions, but that was the poorest season of Doctor Who I've seen. Right from the beginning it was just breaking apart at the seams because of the colossal amount of plot they had saddled themselves with. Writing every episode of a season yourself (except one) is a colossal undertaking and it really shows in how messy and rushed the scripts felt, even compared to past Chibnall seasons.

 

The doubling down on the Timeless Child plotline really went nowhere except for the Doctor having the ability to just procure and open the fob whenever they want to get all The Division knowledge. It's like the baggage of ending the Time War but infinitely worse, because now its like Schrodinger's trauma.

 

Spoiler

The Next Time trailer for NYE was unintentionally hilarious, "it can't end like this" followed by what looks like a shot of Daleks exterminating The Doctor and her companions for about 1 second before the trailer abruptly ends

 

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18 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

And so the Flux comes to an end. In typical fashion of most of the episodes, the finale was a rushed mess that tried to handle more than 4 concurrent plotlines in completely separate locations that then clumsily converge. And what the hell was that editing, cuts happened so quickly that it started to look like characters were teleporting into their next scene.

 

Oh man. I'm nearly halfway through and this is insufferably boring. I thought it couldn't get worse than last year's Christmas special. I have no idea what the hell is going on.

 

I can't see Covid being the reason for the failure of this series - just Chibnall trying to do something he lacks the creative ability to do.

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