The Doctor Who Thread.....

[Wycket 36]

Yeah, I understand them wanting to put a lot into 2013. Still, I hope there is more than just a few specials next year, as to me that would be annoying after all this heavy serialized stuff we've had. 5-8 regular episodes of Doctor Who next year would be quite fine, as long as 2013 will be big. I suspect that Smith will stay on at least until then, as he'd be foolish to leave Doctor Who when the show is going to garnish so much attention.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

14 episodes have been commissioned. If we get 4 or 5 specials in 2012 that means we'll be getting the remaining 9 or 10 episodes in 2013. Sounds like two Who-lite years to me. I'm a little nervous about all of this.

I wish Moffatt would stop with all this "hush and be patient, there's something special planned" stuff and just focus on putting out a decent series of Who every year. While we're on the subject, why exactly did we need a big break this year? The River Song revelation was fun, but hardly worthy of a huge gap in production/broadcast. Breaking up these seasons and giving us fewer episodes can only harm the show in the long run.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I get the feeling it was all a smokescreen for the chaos behind the scenes. The higher ups have ballsed up and the Moff is left to clean up the mess.

'deliberate, creative decision'.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

So you don't think it's anything to do with the Moff dividing his time (and dare I say loyalties) between Dr Who and the equally brilliant Sherlock?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Probably.

[Wycket 36]

Possibly but the BBC are currently cutting costs so 2012's limited run may be a sign of that.

Moffat likely wanted to do a big season in 2013 for the anniversary (hopefully ending with a multi Doctor story ) but they told him that the funds weren't there, so this is the best possible option. Plus, this year has the same number of episodes as usual, just separated. Perhaps they want to move the show back to the fall and are using this as a test to see how significantly different the ratings are?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I've just thought of something. Maybe the plan is to move the show to Winter permanently and run it from November through February. That I could live with. The show always used to run around that time back in the 60s/70s.

[Wycket 36]

That would be fine with me. Maybe have an Easter special or something to keep fans happy. Plus, how many more Christmas themed episodes can they really do?

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

So you don't think it's anything to do with the Moff dividing his time (and dare I say loyalties) between Dr Who and the equally brilliant Sherlock?

The scheduling of Dr Who has got NOTHING to with Sherlock. On the plus side THE BBC SPELLED MY NAME RIGHT!!!!

Also, this story sheds some light onto what's happening behind the scenes.

[LongTallJodie 59]

At least there'll still be SOME Who in 2012, but it sounds like things are really crapped out behind the scenes. Hopefully they can get everything sorted out properly in the next year and come back with a stellar 50th anniversary season.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So dividing the season was a financial descision, not a creative one?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Torchwood: Miracle Day episode 1. NO SPOILERS!!!

For once it pays to be Stateside in the Whoniverse! We get the new episodes of Torchwood a week before the UK. The first episode was terrific! I won't post any spoilers, but I just wanted to say how pleasantly surprised I was that the show still feels like classic Torchwood despite being set in the US. The writing (from RTD) is just as witty, clever, and overall realistic as ever. The visuals are considerably more expensive-looking (one effect in particular towards the end of the episode looks like it came straight out of a big-budget Bond film!), but they still look realistic and not too OTT. I'm hooked and can't wait for the rest of the season. Thumbs up!

[Wycket 36]

Yeah, I'm definitely happy with the direction its going. Starz is really trying to build themselves up to compete with HBO, and this is the perfect type of show to do it. Its kind of become Torchwood meets the X-Files, which is a really brilliant idea that hopefully will really pay off. The thing I'm most excited for is the fact that it actually looks like a professional production. Torchwood and Doctor Who under Davies had that terrible video look that really made the show look cheap and annoyed me especially as I really appreciate a nice visual landscape.

Here's hoping the show continues well and has enough energy to last ten episodes. I'm a little cautious at this point as I wonder whether the story lends itself to that long of a time frame, though I thought the same about Children of Earth so what do I know.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

An Unearthly Child.

Never seen this before. The acting is laughable, especially by the girl playing Susan. The pacing is excruciatingly slow.

[Quintus 5,399]

John Barrowman. Ugh.

He's like an all singin all dancing bad penny here in the UK. Over-exposed is an understatement. Probably the cheesiest person on tv.

And then you find out his American accent is put on and you just know he's a mincing ponce obsessed with attention.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,493]

John Barrowman. Ugh. He's a mincing ponce obsessed with attention.

Nice one, Quint!

[pixie_twinkle 48]

An Unearthly Child.

Never seen this before. The acting is laughable, especially by the girl playing Susan. The pacing is excruciatingly slow.

I love this episode! It's hard to watch it without thinking "this is where it all began". The acting is fine provided you place it in the context of early 1960s "live" TV. It's certainly of it's time. The early seasons of The Avengers are very similar in acting style (pre Emma Peel).

[Wycket 36]

I saw a good fan edit by someone that basically turned the story into a 45 min. episode. The first part is basically untouched and the last 3 parts are cut down to about 20 minutes, making the story so much more tolerable. I definitely really like the first part, but the rest of the story is excruciatingly boring for me that this definitely made it much more enjoyable.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I did not even made it through part 2. I gave up...

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Steef, An Unearthly Child is a fairly tough watch for the last 3 episodes (although I still get a kick out of it). I suggest you skip straight to the second Dr Who story "The Daleks". It's light years ahead in terms of pacing and atmosphere. The cliffhanger to the first episode is brilliantly crafted. Very tense, especially when you consider it was aimed at children in the early 1960s! If you don't like The Daleks, then maybe the Hartnell years just aren't your thing. Which is fine, there are 6 more classic era Doctors to try!

[Naïve Old Fart 9,493]

Steef, An Unearthly Child is a fairly tough watch for the last 3 episodes (although I still get a kick out of it). I suggest you skip straight to the second Dr Who story "The Daleks". It's light years ahead in terms of pacing and atmosphere. The cliffhanger to the first episode is brilliantly crafted. Very tense, especially when you consider it was aimed at children in the early 1960s! If you don't like The Daleks, then maybe the Hartnell years just aren't your thing. Which is fine, there are 6 more classic era Doctors to try!

Pixie, there will always be people who are quite content to engage with new "Who", and not touch classic "Who". I think that they are mising out. Hartnell is a wonderful Doctor, and the characters of Chesterton, Wright, and Susan are portrayed equally brilliantly. In terms of T.V. science fiction, nothing like "Doctor Who" had ever been attempted - and never will be again. Some people are blind because they wish to be; those that want to see will be rewarded handsomely once their eyes are open.

P.s., shouldn't that be "The Dead Planet"..?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Don't patronize me!

[pixie_twinkle 48]

@ Steef: Wouldn't dream of it my son.

@ Richard: Or should it be "The Mutants"?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Pixie, my comment was not aimed at you.

The first part was OK, but after the cavemen....

I'll try the Daleks one though.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I agree that An Unearthly Child really feels like two seperate stories. The first episode is a great stand-alone introduction to the series. The three caveman episodes do get a little monotonous. Lots of very earnest BBC actors in animal skins shouting things like "I have the secret of fire. I am leader!" I think it's all really just a simplistic adventure designed to familiarize the viewers with the four lead actors. The next adventure is where it all really starts. As I said in my earlier post the The Daleks is well worth a watch, especially the first episode. Even by today's standards the cliffhanger is quite chilling.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,493]

@ Richard: Or should it be "The Mutants"?

Nice try, Pixie. As you well know, in the early days, the title of the first episode was considered to be the title (or, at least, working title) of the entire story, hence "An Unearthly Child", "Edge Of Destruction", etc. Only over time have some stories taken on an "uber-title" ("Dalek Master Plan", "Marco Polo", "The Crusades", etc.). I do agree that "The Daleks" is a more discriptive title for the second story, though.

On the subject of "AUC"; the fact that it is as good as it is, is remarkable due to it being scheduled to be the second story filmed, getting bumped up to be the first. I LOVE the 1st episode of "AUC", as it sets up so many fine plot, and character elements. BILL HARTNELL ROCKS!!!!

[pixie_twinkle 48]

But the story really was collectively referred to as "The Mutants" in all BBC paperwork when it was first written. It wasn't until 10 years later when another story was given the title "The Mutants" that the original Dalek story started being referred to just as "The Daleks". What a confusing time for Dr Who. Now how about the first story. 100,000 BC, An Unearthly Child, or The Tribe of Gum? It has to be An Unearthly Child for me, it's just such a terrific title!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But which version of the first ep do you prefer? The one were Susan acts all creepy with inkblots or the revised version?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I haven't watched the pilot episode enough to really form much of an opinion. In fact I just had to skip through it to find the ink-blot scene you mentioned. I'd forgotten that was in there! Very bizarre.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why Eccleston really left Doctor Who:

“I left Doctor Who because I could not get along with the senior people. I left because of politics. I did not see eye-to-eye with them. I didn’t agree with the way things were being run. I didn’t like the culture that had grown up, around the series. So I left, I felt, over a principle.

“I thought to remain, which would have made me a lot of money and given me huge visibility, the price I would have had to pay was to eat a lot of shit. I’m not being funny about that. I didn’t want to do that and it comes to the art of it, in a way. I feel that if you run your career and– we are vulnerable as actors and we are constantly humiliating ourselves auditioning. But if you allow that to go on, on a grand scale you will lose whatever it is about you and it will be present in your work.

“If you allow your desire to be successful and visible and financially secure – if you allow that to make you throw shades on your parents, on your upbringing, then you’re knackered. You’ve got to keep something back, for yourself, because it’ll be present in your work. A purity or an idealism is essential or you’ll become– you’ve got to have standards, no matter how hard work that is. So it makes it a hard road, really.

“You know, it’s easy to find a job when you’ve got no morals, you’ve got nothing to be compromised, you can go, ‘Yeah, yeah. That doesn’t matter. That director can bully that prop man and I won’t say anything about it’. But then when that director comes to you and says ‘I think you should play it like this’ you’ve surely got to go ‘How can I respect you, when you behave like that?’

“So, that’s why I left. My face didn’t fit and I’m sure they were glad to see the back of me. The important thing is that I succeeded. It was a great part. I loved playing him. I loved connecting with that audience. Because I’ve always acted for adults and then suddenly you’re acting for children, who are far more tasteful; they will not be bullshitted. It’s either good, or it’s bad. They don’t schmooze at after-show parties, with cocktails.”

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Just looks like he has a major bee in his bonnet to me.

But then when that director comes to you and says ‘I think you should play it like this’ you’ve surely got to go ‘How can I respect you, when you behave like that?’

Surely it's the director's prerogative to suggest how an actor play a scene? I loved Ecclestone. I honestly think he was the best of the new series actors in the role (although I've loved them all). But he can come across as a right tosser sometimes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

They are all like that up North!

[Wycket 36]

Well, I was reading elsewhere that those in particular that he didn't like were Euros Lynn and Phil Collinson, with Collinson going as far as going after Tennant for season 2 before Eccelston decided to leave. From how I was reading it, it seemed more like he wasn't giving a choice into how things were portrayed and wasn't able to see his performance on playback to see what he had done wrong or not.

Either way, it is a bit of childish stuff, but it also seems like he was forced out by the higher ups. Tennant had already worked with Davies and his crew so maybe they all wanted him involved but BBC wanted a bigger name to try to relaunch the series. Once it was successful, Tennant came aboard and the rest is history. Kind of sad if that's what happened, but now that Davies and all his people have left, it may be possible that he returns for the 50th anniversary in some form. It seems that he wasn't necessarily anti-Doctor Who, just against those whom he was working with.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Just looks like he has a major bee in his bonnet to me.

But then when that director comes to you and says 'I think you should play it like this' you've surely got to go 'How can I respect you, when you behave like that?'

Surely it's the director's prerogative to suggest how an actor play a scene? I loved Ecclestone. I honestly think he was the best of the new series actors in the role (although I've loved them all). But he can come across as a right tosser sometimes.

I've heard a few stories about the early directors of the reboot, most are negative. Keith Boak was fired after RTD finally saw his work on "Rose" and "Aliens of London/World War Three". It's not hard to see why; despite both stories being quite good the direction makes them seem like a cross between a soap opera and a kid's cartoon. I'm not surprised Eccleston couldn't bear the conditions.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Season 6 of may not be quite what I think of as Doctor Who so far, but holy shit this looks incredible:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/dw/news/bulletin_110804_01

[Brónach 1,301]

I like the shots of the piramid with the train, Amy stepping into the weird garden, the TARDIS crashing through a window and the pterosaurs.

I'd like the show to return to the funnny tone it had last season, it was cooler.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Is it just me, or has Torchwood become crap over the last few episodes? I was worried it would be slowed down and take on the "leisurely" (a nice way of putting it) tempo of American shows. It has been. Children of Earth this ain't. The music during Bill Pullman's speech in episode 5 was just shit. As was the acting, the writing, and the whole scene.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I did not have time to check it out yet. I never did like the idea of am "american" version though.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Is it just me, or has Torchwood become crap over the last few episodes? I was worried it would be slowed down and take on the "leisurely" (a nice way of putting it) tempo of American shows. It has been. Children of Earth this ain't. The music during Bill Pullman's speech in episode 5 was just shit. As was the acting, the writing, and the whole scene.

Completely with you. Such a promising premise, but it's turned into a trainwreck. Children of Earth really was a fluke.

I just don't understand... It's got a good budget. The writing staff are among the best in the industry. What went wrong?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I honestly think the mistake was trying to stretch a single story out for 10 episodes. I wish they'd had maybe 2 (or 3?) stories this season. Children of Earth really was the perfect length. Every episode felt tight, fast-paced, and extremely tense. The first two seasons worked because if there was a poor story one week there was going to be a completely different one next week, keeping the audience coming back for more. Children of Earth felt witty, sharp, clever, and sophisticated. In places it felt like House of Cards but with aliens! Miracle Day feels more dumbed-down like most American TV is. (Not all! There are some extremely clever and intelligent US TV shows like West Wing, Dexter etc.) I dont know. By episode 3 of Miracle Day I already felt they were starting to pad the episodes out with filler. That's not good when the whole season is only 10 episodes long!

[davros72 1]

I agree it's too many episodes this season, I got worried when I first heard it was gonna be 10 episodes. 5 worked so damn well for Children of Earth. I have a feeling it could've worked for Miracle Day, too.

In general, I think Miracle Day's been OK, it's had its ups and downs. The Bill Pullman speech didn't really work for me either, not sure exactly why, but it just didn't work.

It's still better than some episodes from Series 1 and 2, though.

And I'm sorry, but Eve Myles just cannot pull off any scene where she has to be overly emotional. She just cannot do it. She's fine when she's calm, when she's being funny or cheeky, but ask her to emote, and wow, does she not do it well at all.

[Richard Penna 3,669]

I haven't been watching this at all, which is unusual as I was glued to Children of Earth.

I think part of it is the massive gap between seasons - the show just disappeared off my radar completely. That, and killing off nearly all the major cast.

But I've put the first episode on now. I'll see how it goes.

Edit - first episode quite good. Nice performances. I'm not liking the music at all though. Why do they think that a drum kit is appropriate scoring for a serious drama?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The rest of season 6 of Doctor Who is starting next month, right?

I am really hoping for 2 things.

the exploding TARDIS from season 5 will be addressed in some form (they seem to have forgotten about it)

Moffat will do more then just deliver shocking plot twists. We have had enough for the season, now just let the story unfold.

[Richard Penna 3,669]

Well I've finished the 4th episode, and really, the 4th was by far the weakest.

Pullman's speech wasn't too bad. The bit I really cringed at was the absolutely by-the-numbers villain right at the end, talking cryptic rubbish to give the guy enough time to climb the stairs. That's what I call padding. Then it got even worse with the voice in the car as it was crushed.

I did like the moving eye at the end of that bit though.. hah, that was creepy.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

The most recent US episode (I forget what number we're on now) was a bit of an improvement IMO. I think I had to get my rant out of my system and then realize Miracle Day isn't all THAT bad really. My expectations have been lowered sufficiently over episodes 3 and 4 for me to just relax and have fun with it from here on out, apparently. It clearly isn't going to be great TV so I'll just enjoy it for what it is. It still feels like the creative juices weren't quite flowing during the writing sessions though.

Steef: I absolutely agree on both counts. Once the exploding TARDIS is explained, that will have taken care of all outstanding questions and the show will be able to move past the huge weight of plot-arc complexity that's been dragging it down like a lead balloon for the last year. I can't wait to get back to a spirit of fun/adventure/horror that is my favourite style of Doctor Who. I'm a bit bored with all these stories that are overly cast-centric. Would I rather see an episode in which we explore a strange new world with scary creatures and a rollicking story, or shall we have another episode that focusses on the Amy-Rory-Doctor-River love quadrangle in which it turns out that Davros is actually River's second cousin twice removed? Hmmm, tough one that.

[Brónach 1,301]

I think Moffat enjoys more playing with time than where you can go with the time machine. It's the two classic points of view about time travel writing.

A middle point would be fine.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

After the Hartnell years the original series moved intentionally away from time travel stories (which were originally included to teach children about history by having the TARDIS crew experience the fall of Rome, the Aztek civilization, the French Revolution etc). By the time I started watching towards the end of Pertwee's tenure the focus was on the exploration of new worlds or alien invasion stories. I enjoy a good time-travel story (Father's Day was excellent, and I really loved all the "meeting famous people from the past" stories from RTD's time) but they have a tendency to get too bogged-down in complexity, AND if you're not careful they just don't work! For instance: How was the Doctor's future self able to give Rory the sonic screwdriver in The Big Bang? It doesn't work! Great fun to watch, but a pretty big hole in the story's inner logic.

[Brónach 1,301]

AND if you're not careful they just don't work! For instance: How was the Doctor's future self able to give Rory the sonic screwdriver in The Big Bang? It doesn't work! Great fun to watch, but a pretty big hole in the story's inner logic.

I actually drew once an schematic and it made sense. You're not thinking fourth-dimensionally.

Moffat likes to play with (mathematicaly plausible) time loops to introduce information (a valid strategy, specially with his tongue-in-cheek approach), but if I remeber correctly it wasn't the case there.

What I mean is that there are two basic approaches to time travel: time travel as a way get somehere that is interesting (example: The Time Machine) and time travel to allow crazy things to happen due to time travel (example: The End of Eternity). Moffat has done an amazing job with the later; I think the story of the Doctor and River is great.

I'd like to see more of the other kind of time travel. And space. Both at once. I'd also like some horror stories again.

I imagine that every writer has got a bias for what he can do and what fulfills himself. If I wrote Doctor Who I imagine that at some point people would start to get tired of dinosaurs, bronze age cultures, the evolution of solar systems over time and alien ecosystems.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Have you seen the Pertwee story "Invasion of the Dinosaurs"? The effects are TERRIBLE! I wonder if it'll get the CGI treatment when it comes to DVD. Having said that, I believe it was the first Doctor Who story I ever saw. I was really into drawing dinosaurs at school so Mum and Dad decided it was time for me to watch Dr Who (I was 3 or 4). Almost 40 years later I'm still watching Dr Who!!!

[Richard Penna 3,669]

I love where the River Song story has gone - a highlight in an otherwise fairly bland series really. I think the problem may be that since they've but it in half, the pressure has been there to create that cliffhanger and its lengthy buildup, and not leaving much room for individual stories. I really hope we get more of them in part 2.

The screwdriver business was a letdown for me.

It's actually a bit like a phenomenon in magic called the 'too perfect effect' where you do something which is clearly so impossible that the audience knows you've clearly cheated, and it becomes less about the magic. In this case, Moffatt got himself written into such a huge corner that the only way out was going to be some paradoxical element. As bit like getting Jack out of Chinese prison in 24 - cheat.

Plus, it seems to me that if every monster in the universe knew the tardis was about to explode and destroy the universe, would the best way of stopping that happening not be to let the doctor sort it out, rather than trapping him in a prison forever?

I love Moffatt's approach to plotting, but for me, that entire story just didn't make very much sense.