some of JP is clearly influenced by Doyle's Henry V?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Neil, care to explain this,

or anyone else please.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Huh? Where's that from?

[Lurker 5]

Listen to "The Death Of Falstaff" from Henry V and then tell me JP doesn't sound like it. The Kaplans even mention this in the newest issues of FSM. I think Williams was suffering from temp track-itis on that one.

Neil

[JoeinAR 1,949]

frankly I don't hear it,

[Lurker 5]

It sounds almost note for note identical to the part where they find the sick dinosaur.

Neil

[Adam 1]

I wish I could remember where I read it but I do recall a discussion at around the time the movie

was out exactly of this nature where the temp track was talked about for Jurassic Park. Doyle?s

Henry V was definitely one that was mentioned, I think, for several scenes. The sick dinasaur scene is the most clear but I think resemblances can be heard in other parts of the score as well. Ned steals the Embryo was probably tracked with his own Conspirators from JFK.

Another example would be The Patriot where you can hear what was used as a temp track in

many places. Moricone?s Once Upon in America, for example, in one cue and JW?s own Born on the Fourth of July in at least one other spot.

- Adam

[tony69 0]

wow you're right. its on the my friend, brachiosaurus thingy mabobber. You can find a clip of the falstaff's death on amazon. it's there. and it's the same key, almost same ideas. yep, temptrackitis.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

However, I prefer "dennis..." to "Conspirators"... has more pep, and is more diverse.

[benefactor 3]

wow you're right. its on the my friend, brachiosaurus thingy mabobber. You can find a clip of the falstaff's death on amazon. it's there. and it's the same key, almost same ideas. yep, temptrackitis.

So, I?ve heard Amazon clip and found no resemblance at all, except for overall melodramatic string writing. Cues sounds very differently. One is very Doyle-like another is Williams-like which no surprise is.

[Hitch 57]

I must clean the 10 inches of dust gathering on my 3 Patrick Doyle scores. Although I must say his score for MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING is one I listen to time and time again. The movie is sheer fun too.

Hitch, who has much to say about nothing.

[Morlock 11]

That is foolish of you. Doyle's a wonderful, wonderful composer. Much Ado About Nothing is a particulaly good score of his, as is Henry V (of course).

Morlock- who just watched Carlito's Way again recently and was very impressed with Doyle's score.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I must clean the 10 inches of dust gathering on my 3 Patrick Doyle scores. Although I must say his score for MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING is one I listen to time and time again.  The movie is sheer fun too.

Brilliant music on CD, a brilliant movie, and a brilliant score in the movie. Just watch how well the overture syncs up with the visuals. Or the great underscore for the would-be wedding.

But as has been said, Henry V is equally amazing. And I want to see Hamlet again (wonder if they'll ever release a DVD...)

Marian - who wants to see another De Palma/Doyle collaboration.

[Justin 2]

It sounds almost note for note identical to the part where they find the sick dinosaur.

Is this moment on the OST?

Justin

[benefactor 3]

It sounds almost note for note identical to the part where they find the sick dinosaur.

Is this moment on the OST?

Justin

First half of My friend, Brachiosaurus isn't it?

[Lurker 5]

Yes, it can be heard starting at 15 seconds into "My Friend, The Brachiosaurus".

Neil

[nightscape94 965]

The beginning of the phrase has the same interval (major 3rd) between the first two notes. Not only that, but the notes are exactly the same. In My Friend, the Brachiosaurus and Henry V the notes are A to C, both being in the key of F. Anyway, these two notes are the 3rd and 5th notes in the major triad, and is extremely common. Don't look too much into it.

Tim

[mahler3 478]

The beginning of the phrase has the same interval (major 3rd) between the first two notes.  In My Friend, the Brachiosaurus the notes are A to C, in the case of Henry V, it's G# to B.  The difference between the two keys is only a half step, the former is in F and the latter is in E, so it wil sound very close.  Anyway, these two notes are the 3rd and 5th notes in the major triad, and is extremely common.  Don't look too much into it.

Tim

Nicely put, so are you a composer or/and do you play an instrument?

- Tim.

[nightscape94 965]

Please notice that I modified my original post. I listened to it again, and I was off by a half step the first time because I was recollecting the Williams piece by memory. I didn't think anyone was going to respond that quickly! I don't have perfect pitch, but I was darn close!

Tim - Who plays guitar (primary - 14 years) and piano

[TownerFan 4,983]

Well, this discovery will make more sense to the fact that Doyle will step into Williams' shoes for the next Harry Potter movie.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What are you talking about, Jarvis cocker is scoring GOB.

[Snowster 23]

Okay, blame me for jw fandom if you want, but quite frankly, I don't buy it. I can hear what you mean, and I do believe that a temptrack can influence a composer. Anyways saying that williams ripped doyle or that the two pieces are exactly the same is foolish. In the end, if one would really analyze the pieces comparing the chords and melodies, there really isn't a very strong connection. I would even go as far as to say, that the pieces don't match stylistically even though there is a certain similitary in the beginning.

-Snowster

[Adam 1]

I don?t see any of this discussion as as a slight on Williams, to tell you the truth. We all know that temp tracks are used quite commonly in Hollywood. And it makes sense that the composer would feel obligated to pay attention to it, so as to please the people who have hired him and not get his score thrown out. And we can never know when is a director or producer particularly wedded to a certain idea existing in the film or a particular scene in which case the composer doesn't have a whole lot of choice in the matter.

So I think that?s just part of the job that they do. When someone can incorporate sombody else?s musical idea and change it in a way that makes it fit the film and the larger score, I see that as impressive. Its still JW?s music and it still sounds like JW and I don?t think anybody has said he plagerized. The title of the thread says "influenced by Doyle's Henry V" which I think is true in several places in the score. Sort of like Star Wars is still a great score even if its influenced by its temptrack.

- Adam

[Tallguy 3,386]

I found this thread (do we have any members who were not born when the last post was made?) because 1) I was just listening to JP the other day and 2) I was reading Dumbest examples of plagiarism or self-plagiarism.

 

I didn't think that this was "dumb" nor do I consider it "plagiarism".

 

But boy would I have liked to have been around for the conversations between Spielberg and Williams. There are others that know more and better, but this seems to be the most direct and the most contemporary lift I've ever heard JW do. It's so "up to the minute".

 

"Hey, could you make it sound like this, John?" "Sure, Steven." "No, more like this?" "Um. Sure, Steven." "No, really. JUST like this." "Whatever, Steven. I have to go write your Holocaust movie."

 

I can see how people would hear it more in Ailing Triceratops, but this was the bit that almost made my ears perk up:

 

"And now, ladies and gentlemen, our very special guest, Henry V!" Those fluttering horns at 8 minutes are so specific.

[A24 4,331]

La La Laaa, La La Laaa, La La Laaa

[Naïve Old Fart 9,524]

Ok, so there are similarities, but if JW ripped-off Doyle, then, equally, Doyle ripped-off Walton.

[Tallguy 3,386]

35 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Ok, so there are similarities, but if JW ripped-off Doyle, then, equally, Doyle ripped-off Walton.

 

I don't think he ripped him off. I think he was given a temp track and asked to follow it verrrrry closely. And if JP wasn't scored right when Henry V was the new hotness I wouldn't really even consider it.

 

Can you think of another time when JW was asked to follow a contemporary score as closely as this?

[Faleel 5,347]

1 minute ago, Tallguy said:

 

 

Can you think of another time when JW was asked to follow a contemporary score as closely as this?

Anakin's Dark Deeds?

[Edmilson 7,439]

Which cues from Henry V was JW ripping off? I haven't heard that score in a while. If someone could post the YT links with timestamps, I'll be grateful

[Naïve Old Fart 9,524]

Hey, @Tallguy, I did say "if" 

 

5 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Can you think of another time when JW was asked to follow a contemporary score as closely as this?

Apparently, in 1987, while composing EMPIRE OF THE SUN, JW was told to "lean on THE MISSION".

[GerateWohl 4,365]

First time I heard Hymn to the Fallen I thought, this seemed to be heavily inspired by Doyle's Non Nobis Domine, but just without words, Not the melody, but the style. Then I was told, that cannot be, because Hymn is americana style and the Doyle piece british. Which brought me to the question what the difference between these to styles. Both are slow solemnly pieces with pastoral harmonization. But also the statement americana sounds like Copland and British like Walton didn't make me smarter.

And I am not sure who of those experts could classify such pieces correctly by just hearing the music without knowing context and composer.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Hymn to the Fallen is probably the least Coplandesque part of the SPR score FWIW

[Tom 4,655]

Has Williams ever commented on the sped up Fanfare for a Common Man to open Summon the Heroes?  It seems like a near quote of the piece. 

[Tallguy 3,386]

16 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Hey, @Tallguy, I did say "if" 

 

Apparently, in 1987, while composing EMPIRE OF THE SUN, JW was told to "lean on THE MISSION".

 

 

Which is a pretty usual kind of request. But I can't hear anything in Empire of the Sun that I say "Oh. That's THIS part of The Mission."

 

That's why this example is so weird to me. There's two chunks of JP that leap out as being from Henry V. The really weird one is the transition from "I'll show you!" and then the little trills that reintroduce the JP theme as Hammond enters the building.

 

He doesn't revisit this or build on it anywhere else in the score. That's why I think that it was just a temp that he had to work with and based on how close it is I think Spielberg was stubborn about it.

 

This is the part of the Henry V score I'm thinking of:

 

[Naïve Old Fart 9,524]

6 hours ago, Tallguy said:

 

 

Which is a pretty usual kind of request. But I can't hear anything in Empire of the Sun that I say "Oh. That's THIS part of The Mission."

 

TBH, neither can I, but I'm pretty sure I read it in a Spielberg biography, one time.

 

 

 

 

On 31/03/2005 at 1:52 PM, Hitch said:

I must clean the 10 inches of dust gathering on my 3 Patrick Doyle scores. Although I must say his score for MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING is one I listen to time and time again. The movie is sheer fun too.

Hitch, who has much to say about nothing.

Good evening, and welcome back, young sir.

[Falstaft 2,132]

Heh, I've was just transcribing this stuff today for a little project!

 

The Doyle similarity with Ailing Triceratops: yes, that's definitely deeply temp-track influenced. Though the two cues stand on their own to my ears. (The triceratops music is also a prefiguration of the War Horse theme in some respects, not sure anyone has remarked on that here before...)

 

 

As for the March to the Visitor Center/Battle of Agincourt passage, that I don'thear. The Williams sounds like, well, Williams -- we all can list other stern minor-mode themes like this from his output, well before 1989. I'm not sure it's Walton derived either, though other JW figures of this sort, his fugal march topic I guess you could call it, certainly do refer back to WW, Spitfire Prelude & Fugue and all...