Williams Peaked Long Ago (A Quasi-Rant) ((2016 Edit: By a Young, Inexperienced, Brash JWFan))

[Saxman717 22]

After listening to the OST of the final Star Wars film, and after listening to many of his recent works, including the previous two Star Wars soundtracks, I strongly feel that the JW today is but a shadow of what he was a few decades ago.

I'm sure there are many who will disagree with me on this. For those of you out there that love all of his new works, that's great. I'm glad that there are some people out there that Williams can still greatly please. But for me (and I'm guessing for at least a few others out there that long to hear new material in the brilliant way that JW composed his scores in the late 70s and 80s), this is a truly disappointing realization.

I've just listened to the new Star Wars score, and I must say, regarding the work as a whole, I am not impressed. It does have some great moments, and Battle of the Heroes is fantastic (although the melody did take some getting used to, and before hearing the full version of it, I thought it was pretty amateur). There are moments in this score, as with all of his recent scores, including the Star Wars ones, where the "old" (for lack of better word) John Williams comes out and shines, and you know that the talent that produced such brilliant works as the original Star Wars trilogy, ET, Indiana Jones etc. still exists inside him. These are wonderful moments and I cherish them. However, these moments are brief and few and far between, and essentially are dwarfed by the lackluster effect of the rest of the score.

To stick with the new Star Wars score specifically, there still remains plenty of music that really lacks inspiration. There's either an abundance of atmospheric "filler" music OR there's the frantic, helter-skelter action music with no firm leitmotif to cling to, and just random spurts of woodwinds, brass or percussion here or there. Any amateur composer could throw together something like that. Considering the brilliant works that JW composed way back in the day, I refuse to embrace these new "styles" of his, as people call them, and will call them what I really think they are --- an uninspired, rushed John Williams who either has too little time to come up with thoroughly catchy and developed leitmotifs in the old-style sense, or has just been in demand so much and produced so much in such little time these days that he has run out of truly novel ideas for the in-between sections of his scores.

I'll give John the benefit of the doubt that his talent to compose is still completely there --- that is, if he were given a full six months to a year to compose a score, and knew the timing and content of each scene in advance, that he would be able to compose a brilliant thematic score, full of seamless transitions and beautifully developed melodies --- so I will put most of the blame for his lackluster production as of late on his demanding schedule and the fact that the films can be digitally edited up until weeks before it's release, so that he doesn't truly know the content and timing of each scene that he's scoring for. Also, since he is in such high demand, he cannot put forth his full love and energy into each project, because they come at him so fast and demand that he finish them so quickly.

I know that plenty of you will eat up the new Star Wars score in its entirety, and will believe it to be the "best thing since Empire Strikes Back" etc., and yes, it does have some moments that are as briliant as the ESB score as a whole is, but I find it hard to believe that such music-savvy folk as there are on here can just blatantly ignore the horrendous transitional scoring (or lack-thereof) on this album.

The segue from the Main Title into the battle music is the first example. It is abrupt and not seamless in any way, including musically (chord progressions). Next, in Anakin vs. Obi Wan, the outtakes from Empire Strikes Back, while nostalgic and great to hear again, are horribly "interwoven" with the rest of the fight music. The transitions really aren't transitions, but are blatant cut and pastes from the ESB score, and the new fast high trumpet accents are pretty over-the-top and amateur. The transitions into these cues and out of them are painfully abrupt and strongly disrupt the flow of the otherwise great piece of fight music. Finally, the end credits, while nostalgic, is a horrendous cut-and-paste job from the old scores. The orchestra sounds quite uninspired during much of the Throne Room concert version, and the abrupt endings (and re-startings) to it are incredibly amateur and I am shocked that Williams was happy with this. The Tatooine cue was well-incorporated musically, but in terms of its placement in the end credits, just when a relatively inspired buildup of the throne room theme was developing to a peak, it really broke the mood for me and took me from "almost-tears" to a state of "OK, there's that theme again....good incorporation....but why the heck is it in this end credits?"

Up until this point, JW has maintained at least *some* highstandards for his compositions and scores, and his music has been relatively unblemished, if uninspired at times. It's only been the Star Wars *movies* themselves that have been "dumped on" by Lucas's poor attention to acting, dialogue, and story development/pacing. Now, with this final Star Wars score, it's as though JW has done to his music exactly what Lucas did to his movies over the prequel trilogy. JW finally accepted mediocrity and produced some unforgivably horrible cues. They are mainly unforgivable because they take the brilliant parts from the old scores, that we love and cherish so much, and slap them on top of the new scores as though we are supposed to fall in love with them again, even if they are horribly incorporated into the score. It's as though JW and Lucas thought "well, it doesn't matter if the transitions into and out of these pieces are smooth and work well with the score.....they won't care if the pieces musically fit with the cues......as soon as those fans hear the old cues, they'll blow their wads and forget all about the musical standards that should be upheld". I'm sorry, but I'm not that easy to please.

I love the OT soundtracks and the music that JW pulled from them for this new soundtrack......and while I do acknowledge that he has the right to do that --- directly rehash parts from old scores --- if he's going to, then he truly does have an unwritten obligation to his fans to "sew" them seamlessly into his new work. Many of the transitions in this new soundtrack are just blatantly BAD. The most shocking part is that at least half of them are not production edits, but are actual scoring blunders (yes, blunders.....or perhaps better described as lazy shortcuts) by Williams himself. It's shocking, disappointing, and totally overshadows the points in the soundtrack that are special and do liken back to his old days of brilliance.

Considering all this, and having listened to the soundtrack that could have proven to the world that he truly did still care about Star Wars, his fans, and the reall quality of his music, I can safely (and sadly) say that Williams is way past his peak. He comes up with some brilliant themes here and there, but regarding full soundtracks, he will never again be able to produce full 2-hour scores that have the love that he put into many of his older scores. Parts of this new soundtrack are shameful, and in allowing it to pass as acceptable to him, he himself acts shameless to his fans, and my respect for him (in his current state) has dropped significantly. He should take on less tasks. He should retire from film scoring if that's what it takes, and if he wants to continue writing music, he should give himself the amount of time and effort he needs to produce truly exceptional works (which we all know he is capable of from his distant-past efforts).

That's all for now.................still wondering what happened to his beautiful ending to the AOTC end credits on the OST that got cut from the film.........if anything, I thought it'd be used for this film........

Great to get the soundtrack early and hear a few good parts on there (and a few catchy parts), but incredibly shocked and disappointed at the shameless cut-and-paste and transitional laziness/amateurish nature of much of it. Blah.

 

EDIT 11 YEARS LATER:  THIS POST IS WAY TOO LONG AND WAY TOO REPETITIVE AND WAY TOO HARSH ; 2016 SAXMAN AGREES WITH MAYBE 30% OF THE ABOVE ; AMAZING WHAT A DECADE'S WORTH OF EXPERIENCE WILL DO FOR ONE'S PERSPECTIVE & OPINIONS

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I pretty much agree with you.

I also think that as a trilogy these scores do not seem to forefill the expectations.

What the hell happened to Anakins Theme, Williams had a great change to slowly create more mature and darker versions of it and ultimatly arriving the Darth Vaders Theme.

Back in 1999 It seemed like Williams and Lucas had a very clear cut idea of how they were gonna threat these films musically over the 6 year period.

Anakin's theme should have been the spine of the prequel trilogy, now it seems to lack focus and cohesion.

I said this 3 years ago, and nothing i heard today made me change my mind.

Even in his decline John Williams is one of the best composers around, and the fact that some of us are so critical about his recent output is because we have been so spoiled by his 1975- 1984 winning streak and his late 80's early 90's works.

[Morlock 11]

No, with a but.

Morlock- who thinks that in a way JW peaked in the 77-82 period, but in another, more accurate way (for me at least), has been at his peak for 35 years

[Adam 1]

I've been trying to get my thoughts around the score and not very well. Partly, I have to keep coming back to the fact that half the score or so isn't on the album. Also, lots of the choices JW makes or has made for him aren't evident until we can see the film. Its also necessary from the point of view of judging the score as it was intended, to serve the film.

But as an album, there's a nagging sense that something is missing and its probably not just the unreleased music (or the two cues I can't download). I think it may be something in the limitations of the film, which asked him to rely a lot on his previous material. There's not enough of an opportunity for new themes to come to the fore and give the score its own identity. So there is maybe a kind of hodgepodge effect, like you're getting good individual cues but it doesn't form one coherant unified score. But this is all premature and, again, I suspect the film and Lucas can go a long way towards explaining that.

From a musical point of view, he's still writing amazingly complicated, rich, difficult music. Its possible that from a creative point of view, he's not connecting the way he used to but I'm not at all convinced of this. I'm open-minded about it and I don't think my perception is the end-all, be-all but its just not at all clear to me.

- Adam

[deth 0]

I've been trying to get my thoughts around the score and not very well. Partly, I have to keep coming back to the fact that half the score or so isn't on the album. Also, lots of the choices JW makes or has made for him aren't evident until we can see the film. Its also necessary from the point of view of judging the score as it was intended, to serve the film.

I was just going to post that...

... I think we have to remember that Williams isn't composing this music for his fans necessarily, but for the film. I'm not a big supporter of Mickey Mousing a film in the score, but I suspect that's what happened a lot in this one, hence the disjointed, cut-and-paste effect. However, I also think his standards have gone down (maybe that's because I just finished listening to the Jurassic Park score - amazing).

[King Mark 3,626]

I've listened to it once,and it's too early to make such an impulsively hash critisism of Williams at this point.Some things on this album are disappointing(the quotes lifted from previous scores mainly),but nowhere near as drastic your making it up to be.

I think this post mean spirited and bitter.

K.M.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

you know this is a representation of the album which is less than 1/2 of the music heard in the film.

to dismiss it so early is foolhardy.

if you need proof, listen to Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban, this isn't a man past his peak.

John might be a man past Hollywoods peak period, but he's not past his peak not yet.

[King Mark 3,626]

Also,considering the full 2 hour score,I don't think those small quotes of previous music will be that big of a deal.Not as annoying as the re-hashed music in CoS.

K.M.

[David Coscina 3]

Yes I agree with Joe. Saxman, if you don't think much of ROTS, fine. but declaring Williams is past his prime when he's coming out with things like Minority Report, Angela's Ashes, Catch Me if You Can and Harry Potter, well, I think you have a case of sentimentality. Of course Williams doesn't write exactly like he did in the '70's. Filmmaking has changed significantly and he's had to evolve with the times. Back then, filmmakers didn't have 70 or 80 tracks of sound effects to throw in so the composer could go wild with contrapuntal writing to fill in the gaps. Nowadays, there's so much competition between music and effects and dialogue that I've noticed Williams has streamlined his writing somewhat. But a lot of composers as they grow settle into a style that doesn't feature wild overwriting- and yes, some would definitely say he over wrote in the '70s. Remember, his music is supporting a FILM, not an opera or symphony unto itself.

I for one think there's truly inspired and excellent material on ROTS. Obviously some of the abrupt changes are the result of re-sequencing and re-editing of disperate cues. Maybe we'll get a full score someday but sheesh, the friggin' official soundtrack hasn't even been released yet so give Williams some latitude eh?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I would also like to point out that while this might not be a perfect score it is lightyears better than the piece of crap AOTC.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

For me Williams peaked in the classic period around 1975-1982. Since then he has written much wonderful music, but has never maintained the solid level of quality from his peak years for more than a couple of scores back to back. Having said that, Williams at his peak was better than 99.9% of all movie composers have ever been. What we're hearing now are the scores of a great composer whos already proved himself. He's gradually simmering down. These are no longer the scores of a young man who needs to prove himself. As long as Williams puts out a score that he feels happy with I will treat it with the respect it deserves, and he deserves. Williams has already created some of the World's finest scores. Several of them are for Star Wars films. He certainly doesn't need to give his all to yet another Star Wars score. He's done that twice already. If he feels there's still another truly classic score he wants to put out, I'm sure it will be for something altogether different. Let him be more choosy and personal at this point. Of course I'm disappoited he's not composing the score for GOF, but he had to quit the Potter series at some point! He's not a factory composer, he's a true artist. I'm sure he has more wonderful music to give. Just not for yet another horrible SW prequel or a franchise he's been working on for 6 years already.

I'm a little drunk so I'm not at all sure if any of what I just wrote made any sense at all. I feel it very strongly though.

[hoby12 0]

anyone else not read posts over a few lines? (sorry)

[krosstj 0]

I think williams peaked from 70's to early 90's actually. I think the last AMazing score was J.P. HOWEVER, to make the mean hearted comments that were stated in this post are obsurd, the day I see you compose a 2 hour film score that wins an oscar is the day I will put any weight into your comments. Think before you speak.

Krosstj- who does not like it when people have mean things to say about other people.

[David Coscina 3]

"acts shameless to his fans" Saxman? Have you actually met hin? He was pretty damn nice to the more than 70 people who attended the post-concert reception in Pittsburgh back in 2003. He signed autographs, had pictures taken with fans and more importantly, listened to what we had to say to him. I found him to be a complete gentleman. he also has a great sense of humour that doesn't come across in printed interviews.

You're entitled to your opinions of course, but largely insulting a guy on a forum dedicated to him is kind of...well, silly, no that's not the word....ah yes, stupid.

[hoby12 0]

I think williams peaked from 70's to early 90's actually.  I think the last AMazing score was J.P.  HOWEVER, to make the mean hearted comments that were stated in this post are obsurd, the day I see you compose a 2 hour film score that wins an oscar is the day I will put any weight into your comments.  Think before you speak.

Krosstj- who does not like it when people have mean things to say about other people.

Yes, since JP for whatever reason is my favorite JW score it would be fair to say he peaked there. Yet some of the younger fans enjoy the potter's more than Star Wars and 70s,80s. I think its also fair to say that the quality of the movies he has scored has gone down too, and that might be something to do with it.

[krosstj 0]

Hoby, I agree with you, like you agree with me somewhat LOL. I never understood the hype with the Potter scores, really. I do like them, but I still think that JP is the last amazing JW Score. However, HP is once again proof that he has not lost his "TOUCH" and you are right the films of late have gone down hill ALOT! Nostalgia and Reality sometimes are hard to seperate and they need to be. The original poster I think was having nostalgia, everything is always better the first time through

[mahler3 478]

Don't forget the product for which he now writes for is very different compared to his 1975 - 1984 period, the continual onslaught of new Spielberg & Lucas fantasty/action blockbusters were back to back, where as lately Spielberg's approach has been more subtle - except for the imminent arrival with War of the Worlds of course which will be interesting and exciting for all of us I feel.

If you compare some smaller scale scores, say Dracula, Monsignor, Jaws 2 & Heartbeeps from the period of which you speak - I would rate the likes of JFK, Saving Private Ryan, Jurassic Park & Angela's Ashes with them, if not above some of them. His Unfinished Journey was also a wonderful piece, infact it summed up many of his different orchestral styles and permutations from over the years perfectly, whilst matching the literal core of the piece too.

If Williams had composed these prequel scores back in the late '70's and early '80's you would be raving about them, because they were new at the time! Williams and his music has matured and grown up accordingly, but maybe you do not want to?

- Tim.

[Saxman717 22]

I think williams peaked from 70's to early 90's actually. I think the last AMazing score was J.P. HOWEVER, to make the mean hearted comments that were stated in this post are obsurd, the day I see you compose a 2 hour film score that wins an oscar is the day I will put any weight into your comments. Think before you speak.

Krosstj- who does not like it when people have mean things to say about other people.[/quote

*Should quote King Mark's original post too

How was my post bitter, mean-spirited, mean-hearted etc? How was I saying mean things about John Williams? The only thing I can think of is the "retiring" part, and by that, I meant he should retire from film music to have enough time and lack of stress to write some truly inspired, lengthy thematic works.

Just because I post a dissenting opinion doesn't mean I'm bitter or mean-hearted or am picking on JW. I personally have been a huge fan of him my entire life, and spent my early years (as early as 2 and 3) listening to the Star Wars scores over and over again. I would blare the main title at 6AM, much to the chagrine of my parents.

I love John Williams and the old scores that he produced. He unfortunately made some brilliant scores 20-30 years ago that can be used for direct comparison with works that he produces now (for the *same series of films, with thematic structures carried over*), and I'm just giving an unbiased opinion after listening to this new score and making those comparisons.

Even if it's a different era of filmmaking, I've *never* heard such a high # of ugly transitions and cut-and-pastes in a soundtrack. It really is on the same level of amateurism as the cut-and-pastes from TPM score that were placed in AOTC for some of the Geonosis scenes. Some of these transitions and cut-and-pastes don't seem to be mixing edits either.......they seem to be exactly what JW wanted, and I can't understand how he let that slide, especially for the finale to his 30-year 6-segment operatic masterpiece.

On a side note, to continue the operatic idea.....yes Star Wars is a movie series, but the original soundtracks were written in the operatic or symphonic style. Very continuous with themes and leit motifs. That is why the expectations were there for these new scores to carry over in the same fashion and not just be "background music" scores to movies, in the contemporary style.

I think Stefancos brings up some great points about where the prequel scores have gone as opposed to where they were supposed to go.

-Sax wondering why people think I'm bitter and mean-hearted.

[bondo 33]

I think ROTS will be one of those Williams scores that can really be appreciated in it's complete, unedited form. Thematic development plays a huge role in this SW film in particular, and while 70 min comes close, the score in it's entirety will be something even better.

[Saxman717 22]

"acts shameless to his fans" Saxman?  Have you actually met hin?  He was pretty damn nice to the more than 70 people who attended the post-concert reception in Pittsburgh back in 2003.  He signed autographs, had pictures taken with fans and more importantly, listened to what we had to say to him.  I found him to be a complete gentleman.  he also has a great sense of humour that doesn't come across in printed interviews.

You're entitled to your opinions of course, but largely insulting a guy on a forum dedicated to him is kind of...well, silly, no that's not the word....ah yes, stupid.

What are you talking about? You're generalizing my words, and twisting them to mean other things. I don't think my original post is that confusing.........by "acting shameless to his fans", I was referring to the ugly cut-and-pastes of cues straight from the original trilogy scores, and the horrendous transitions scattered throughout the soundtrack.

IMHO, slapping together cues from the original trilogy in a hodge-podge, amateur sort of way and expecting your fans to gush over it and embrace it because they loved the original cues so much is acting shameless. I don't think this is too shocking of an opinion to have here.....

[John Crichton 4]

I think ROTS will be one of those Williams scores that can really be appreciated in it's complete, unedited form. Thematic development plays a huge role in this SW film in particular, and while 70 min comes close, the score in it's entirety will be something even better.

Wise words, and something that must be considered for every new Williams score.

[Jeshopk 8]

To stick with the new Star Wars score specifically, there still remains plenty of music that really lacks inspiration. There's either an abundance of atmospheric "filler" music OR there's the frantic, helter-skelter action music with no firm leitmotif to cling to, and just random spurts of woodwinds, brass or percussion here or there. Any amateur composer could throw together something like that.

Sorry, but you threw away all your credibility with that one.

I was just watching Return of the Jedi, and you know what? It's remarkably consistent in overall orchestration and dramatic sensibility as ROTS!

The idea that this is a new low for Williams is just laughable. The soundtrack, which is half of the score, has plenty of pathos, pomp, action, adventure, pain and tragedy.

Just because it failed to live up to your particular expectations doesn't mean that Williams has in any way failed to deliver his usual high standards of orchestral quality and drama.

[Saxman717 22]

 

Sorry, but you threw away all your credibility with that one.

I was just watching Return of the Jedi, and you know what? It's remarkably consistent in overall orchestration and dramatic sensibility as ROTS!

The idea that this is a new low for Williams is just laughable. The soundtrack, which is half of the score, has plenty of pathos, pomp, action, adventure, pain and tragedy.

Just because it failed to live up to your particular expectations doesn't mean that Williams has in any way failed to deliver his usual high standards of orchestral quality and drama.

It's not a matter of him writing a score that meets my expectations like the old ones do --- my hope for that is all but lost. It's a matter of the crazy # of amateur transitions and cut-and-pastes that I have *never* heard Williams produce before on his soundtracks.

Like I said originally, there are some great parts to this new ROTS score that I really get into and appreciate..........there are just too many glaring mistakes (in crucial places....ie main title segue, final duel, lengthy end credits) for me to overlook and declare the album an overall success.

It's not a new low for him ---- some good music in it saves it from being that ---- but the lazy transition scoring and cut-and-pasting of direct cues in an incoherant way are unprecented displays of unprofessionalism by Williams. I wish this weren't true and that I didn't have to say it.....

[King Mark 3,626]

Sorry for calling your post mean.

I hae some critisism towards this album too,but I'd wait after listening ot it a few times and hearing the rest of the score before proclaiming Williams a has been.

K.M.

[David Coscina 3]

It's not a matter of him writing a score that meets my expectations like the old ones do --- my hope for that is all but lost.  It's a matter of the crazy # of amateur transitions and cut-and-pastes that I have *never* heard Williams produce before on his soundtracks.

It's not a new low for him ---- some good music in it saves it from being that ---- but the lazy transition scoring and cut-and-pasting of direct cues in an incoherant way are unprecented displays of unprofessionalism by Williams.  I wish this weren't true and that I didn't have to say it.....

Ughhh. Were you there during the production of the CD? Was Williams? Probably not. the guy scored the film and then went right into working on WOTW. Like many of his soundtracks, it's a music editor that puts these albums together and re-edits them. Please, stop making proclamations about matters that you obviously know very little about. Labelling Williams "lazy" is pure ignorance on your part. Most people know that he doesn't sequence or do much on his Cd releases. We all must wait to hear how the music works in the film. I remember not liking the segue on TPM and then saw the film realised that the opening track on the CD had 2 separate cues strung together.

Please, wait until all of the evidence is in before you make statements like you have regarding Williams' work ethic.

[Jeshopk 8]

It's not a new low for him ---- some good music in it saves it from being that ---- but the lazy transition scoring and cut-and-pasting of direct cues in an incoherant way are unprecented displays of unprofessionalism by Williams. I wish this weren't true and that I didn't have to say it.....

I think the transition between the opening theme and the action music is well done, but I can't agree with the choice of key going into the end credits. It seems anti climactic. I'm wondering if that's what we'll hear in the film. I'm sober about some of my dissappointments in this one. Padme's Ruminations and Palpatine's techings are remarkably simple and un-signature for this point in the series. The music on this soundtrack should have been completely void of any electronics or modern touches. Aside from that, this score is swaying my heart.

A Star Wars score without the filmic context is lacking half the drama. Sure, the OT scores are dramatic, but would you think so much of them without the films? Its the successful application of them to the films, and how you connect with them now, that gives them so much of their strength.

As for the transitions in Track 9, I somewhat disagree with the choice of including music from ESB, but the transitions aren't bad...It's just really wierd to hear those themes composed into anything other than their original context. So its not a musical failure, but a strangeness to the ear. And perhaps a failure to consistently write NEW music, which is what Star Wars used to be about until apparently George Lucas and Ben Burtt showed us they had no such concerns.

The fact is, it is Williams who has been the one to insist on new music. Lucas seems ok with re-using music. I can forgive the intrusion of the ESB music, because at least it IS composed INTO the music rather than RETRACKED, which would have been the inevitable conclusion had Williams deviated from the plan laid before him.

[King Mark 3,626]

On a critical point,none of the tracks on ROTS would fit on a "best of all time" Williams c.d.,and I really hoped that would have ben the case as THAT's what I'd been waiting for all those years.Strong writing,but no timeless classic.In that resppect it does not fulfill my expectations.

K.M.

[Jeshopk 8]

On a critical point,none of the tracks on ROTS would fit on a "best of all time" Williams c.d.

Time will tell whether I would agree with that. Star Wars music that's the best of all time is so because the scenes they accompany are also so strong, hence the memory enhancing the cue. After I see the movie a few hundred times, I'll have some ability to stack it against my feelings for the older music.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I think Saxman717's post is well thought out and sincere, you may not agree, but it is lightyears above the average "Williams is a talentless hack" posts they sometimes fill the FSM Forum with.

[Chris ChrusherComix 46]

Art, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Unlike proven facts, which cannot be disputed, no one truth can be found in musical and artistic tastes. It's completely iindependant on the individual. It's what seperates pop fans from opera, rap fans from soft rock, country fans from classical, gospel fans from death metal. It's taste.

Although my personal favorite period for Williams scoring is 1977-1983 (The SW:OT and every score inbetween), I don't think he's lost it. I thought many of his late-80s and mid-90's "mature" scores were greatly disappointing to me, but others loved them. TLW, TPM, AOTC, and (so far) ROTS are smashing successes to me, but some don't like them as much as I do. His style changed, but saying he's past his prime isn't exactly accurate.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

His style changed, but saying he's past his prime isn't exactly accurate.

LOL the old Why Isn't Jerry's Music Good Anymore reponse has found a home on JWFAN.NET.

[Jeshopk 8]

In sheer note volume, I'd say Williams' hasn't become as "streamlined" as Goldsmith was in his late years. If anything, too busy for some tastes. Except Padme's Ruminations and Palpatine's Teachings

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Possibly, but Jerry was a lot more consistant with his style and quality.

With Williams it's more hit or miss.

[A24 4,326]

I think Saxman717's post is well thought out and sincere, you may not agree, but it is lightyears above the average "Williams is a talentless hack" posts they sometimes fill the FSM Forum with.

Yes, absolutely, but saying that any amateur composer can write this sort of music is ... illusive.

Alex McGregor

[A24 4,326]

Possibly, but Jerry was a lot more consistant with his style and quality.

With Williams it's more hit or miss.

I think he passed that period now.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So you think Williams now only hits, or only misses?

[A24 4,326]

So you think Williams now only hits, or only misses?

I think his quality has improved. See latest Spielberg movies (no more Amistads, if you know what I mean) and even the third Potter, which is an improvement over the other two, especially in terms of originality.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well I see were you are coming from.

I need to heat ROTS on a proper CD and find out what they left out though, before I can cement any judgement.

[mahler3 478]

Possibly, but Jerry was a lot more consistant with his style and quality.

Mr. Baseball anyone? Horrible score, I adore Goldsmith yet you cannot hand on heart call anything save for maybe Williams '60's scores horrible surely?

- Tim.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Mr Baseball was 1992, I was referring to Goldsmith late 90's and early 2000 period.

Besides, one bad score in a whole batch of good ones, sound like a pretty good batting-average.

[mahler3 478]

Fair enough I stand corrected, nicely put too!

- Tim.

[Lurker 5]

Were you there during the production of the CD?  Was Williams?  Probably not.  the guy scored the film and then went right into working on WOTW.  Like many of his soundtracks, it's a music editor that puts these albums together and re-edits them.  Please, stop making proclamations about matters that you obviously know very little about.  Labelling Williams "lazy" is pure ignorance on your part.  Most people know that he doesn't sequence or do much on his Cd releases.  We all must wait to hear how the music works in the film.  I remember not liking the segue on TPM and then saw the film realised that the opening track on the CD had 2 separate cues strung together.  

Please, wait until all of the evidence is in before you make statements like you have regarding Williams' work ethic.

Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. The cuts one is hearing are probably the reuslt of Ken Wannberg and Pete Myles. The opening cue is a mess of edits. The more I hear it, the more I'm convinced it's not space battle music at all. We have no idea how "Anakin vs. Obi-Wan" is edited either. Ken's cuts have not always been that subtle, anyway.

Neil

[Rogue_Leader 2]

I think we have all known this for quite some time. I've been kind of trying to deny it for a while but I eventually accepted this fact like 3 or 4 years ago.

Clearly the 80's was THE time for JW (the late 70's too).

OH well, no one can keep such a high peak going forever. Its cool.

I just want someone to come in and truly take up the reigns and fill the void. Especially for when JW is gone.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

Giacchino!!!!!!!

j/k

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

HEY!

[Lurker 5]

Who?

Neil

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Possibly, but Jerry was a lot more consistant with his style and quality.

You mean to say, he always wrote the same action music, with a slightly different theme incorporated.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, I mean that he get's away with it much better then Williams.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Not for me. I found "nemesis" quite good in places but uninspired in others, and Timline is so boring I deleted the mp3s. I enjoy several parts of "Sum of all Fears", though, but not the action writing in it.

[Simon R. 10]

Zzzzzzzz this is such a shocking post