moviemusic-makers vs. rockstars : the showdown has begun!!!

[Maraquesh 0]

in my thread 'is john williams really as good as a real composer' i thought i could just state my opinion. i just thought that i could spark the beginning of some constructive discussion about the quality of the music of moviemusic-makers compared to that of the true geniuses of this world, namely rockstars. boy was i wrong! little did i know that you guys seem to take critism concerning moviemusic-makers so very baldly!!! i find that very, very strange. some people, like JackChapple, immediatly started calling me a retard, amongst other things, which must be some kind of testimony to his intelligence. apparently, when someone says something that doesn't match his opinion for the full 100%, he starts flaming and cursing. thanks to the moderator for not condoning such childish behavior and deleting his reply.

i also find it very strange that people suggest i'm some kind of faker. what utter nonsense! i hate it when clowns enter my own messageboards, and i hate it even more now that i myself am accused of being one.

and why???? just because i state the truth??? is it a moment of clarity for you guys to realise that your beloved moviemusic-makers may not be as gifted or talented as you think and that it's true composers like Petty, Queen or Rob Thomas dominate the serious music scene. granted, moviemusic-makers write funny tunes, but their ''''music'''' pales in comparison to that of the above named artists (and thousands more).

what is music anyway? as far as i (and true music lovers/professionals) am concerned, there are 2 kinds : serious music (like Petty) and funny, non-serious music like classical music (joyful, funny tunes). serious music is written by true composers, not by people who can only think up simple, funny, if not 'dumb' melodies, played only by violins and flutes and stuff, and NOT by real instruments! how can you call anyone a composer who doesn't know how to handle a guitar, play a drumroll or play some fatt-ass chords on a classic B3 organ??? anyone could write classical music, like i said, even my baby brother has a flute and he plays stuff just like beethoven or mozard or any other non-serious musician. and what i've stated before is perhaps most important : music can only be taken serious WITH LYRICS!!!! that's why movies that have music by real composers always have lyrics. how can you watch tarzan of shrek without songs?? and films with no songs are always bad or worse than without them. like the starwars film with all the clones, it was only bad because during the scenes in the gladiator arena they didn't play something like How you remind me or Run to you. that would have been so awesome! instead we get funny music, which doesn't fit at all. ofcourse American girl (YEESSS!!!) could have been played too but hey, is there a scene, ANY scene, in which a classic like that wouldn't fit???

the truth is, you guys think you know everything, but how many of you can write instant classics like Tom or John (L. Hooker) can??? how many of you know a Bchord from an Fchord??? i'm sure john williams doesn't know cause he never uses guitar. he just tells a violin player the funny tune and lets him play it. wow, what a musician he is! what kind of music is that???

my point is, you cannot compare moviemusic-makers to real rockstars, cause they don't stand a chance!! no way! i know i'm opening eyes here, and that many, many agree with me. please speak up people! let them know you love rock more than funny tunes!

Into the great wide open...

[Bowie 45]

Whoever you really are, you could have at least made it less obvious this time, that you're yanking our chains. So reveal your true self, and your normal, rational human mind, or face the wrath of being ignored.

Fellow JWFans, unless it's urgent, please do not respond to this fool until he comes out of the joker's closet!

[Maraquesh 0]

Bowie, who says YOU're not the faker. come on, i know clowns, i know those fools that just wanna 'yank peoples chains', but they usually just blabber on about nothing and it indeed becomes way too obvious that it's just a joke. but to think that anyone with a different opinion is a faker persée, is absurd. and i'm NOT faking, god, is it so hard to believe, to understand my point of views. as if i am the only one who has them????

[THEfranz_conrad 0]

what is music anyway? as far as i (and true music lovers/professionals) am concerned, there are 2 kinds : serious music (like Petty) and funny, non-serious music like classical music (joyful, funny tunes). serious music is written by true composers, not by people who can only think up simple, funny, if not 'dumb' melodies, played only by violins and flutes and stuff, and NOT by real instruments! how can you call anyone a composer who doesn't know how to handle a guitar, play a drumroll or play some fatt-ass chords on a classic B3 organ??? anyone could write classical music, like i said, even my baby brother has a flute and he plays stuff just like beethoven or mozard or any other non-serious musician. and what i've stated before is perhaps most important : music can only be taken serious WITH LYRICS!!!!

This dichotomy between classical/dumb/funny and serious/rock/simple music is just bringing me to tears!!!

i know i'm opening eyes here, and that many, many agree with me. please speak up people! let them know you love rock more than funny tunes!

Into the great wide open...

Opening eyes!? LOL LOL

[THEfranz_conrad 0]

but to think that anyone with a different opinion is a faker persée, is absurd. and i'm NOT faking, god, is it so hard to believe, to understand my point of views. as if i am the only one who has them????

Bowie - would a faker risk the infamy that comes with that Avatar?!?!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Gee, I never thought I would join a discussion board because of a single post, but, obviously, I was wrong.

Every single line of that post hurts. And not because this guy's saying the truth ...

First of all, a friendly "hi!" to everyone!

Secondly, the reply to this incredibly DUMB, ignorant post above.

>and i hate it even more now that i myself am accused of being one.

>and why???? just because i state the truth???

You're in NO way stating the truth. You're stating your opinion and it's as far away from the truth as it can get. I don't blame you because it's obvious that your opinion is based on a serious lack of (musical) knowledge.

>what is music anyway? as far as i (and true music lovers/professionals) am concerned, there are 2 >kinds : serious music (like Petty) and funny, non-serious music like classical music (joyful, funny >tunes). serious music is written by true composers, not by people who can only think up simple, >funny, if not 'dumb' melodies, played only by violins and flutes and stuff, and NOT by real instruments! >how can you call anyone a composer who doesn't know how to handle a guitar, play a drumroll or >play some fatt-ass chords on a classic B3 organ???

Any true music lover/ professional who isn't completely out of his mind would recognise more than TWO kinds of music. And if you associate classical music with "funny and joyful tunes", then you only prove what you're indicating throughout your posts: that you don't have the merest scintillia of a whisper of a clue what you're talking about.

I don't think anyone on this earth would identify "Der Ring Des Nibelungen" or "Carmina Burana", or "Schindler's List" as "funny" or "joyful"!

And do you have any idea of what a "real" composer is? The world's understanding of a composer doesn't come from any rock stuff, but from people like Beethoven, Händel or Vivaldi.

If it wasn't for these geniuses, your rockstars wouldn't even exist.

So, if you pull your head out of your a**, you'll see that film composers like Williams or Barry are as close to a real composer as you can get.

Those people you worship so much make music and they also compose something, but their composition is a hundred times less complicated than your average John Williams score.

Many film composers start in a band and then RISE to the level of orchestral composition.

Did rockstars ever try to harmonise 15 sections AND several percussion instruments? Don't think so.

Handling the instruments in a rock song is a joke compared to a full 100 + pieces orchestra.

AND by the way, the truth is that violins, flutes and brass intruments were around CENTURIES before someone even thought of a keyboard. These are real instruments, which usually require more skills than a keyboard or a guitar.

While we're talking about guitars: only because you've never heard WIlliams using a guitar doesn't mean that he really didn't.

>and films with no songs are always bad or worse than without them. like the starwars film with all the >clones, it was only bad because during the scenes in the gladiator arena they didn't play something >like How you remind me or Run to you. that would have been so awesome! instead we get funny >music, which doesn't fit at all.

And just imagine American Girl over the opening crawl!!! Awesome

Excuse ME, but can it get any more stupid?

My suspicion is that you just don't understand how movies work (second thought, it's not a suspicion, it's flaming obvious).

1) a song with lyrics would distract audiences from the on- screen action

2) a song with lyrics doesn't change its direction and wouldn't be in sync with the action

3) a song with lyrics (in a movie) doesn't have the same emotional power as a customized score.

Try playing a song with lyrics over a dialogue scene ...

>how many of you know a Bchord from an Fchord??? i'm sure john williams doesn't know cause he >never uses guitar.

A lot more than you might think. Williams was a jazz musician and studied virtually every aspect of composition, pal, he knows a lot more about music than 90 % of your beloved musicians.

How many scores have you heard of him? Two? And you can safely say that he never uses a guitar? You've seen Episode II? Then watch it again and look out for the electric guitar in the Corouscant chase ...

>he just tells a violin player the funny tune and lets him play it. wow, what a musician he is! what kind >of music is that???

After all this nonsense you've spouted here, I'm sure YOU don't know ...

And he doesn't only tell the violins, but also the violas, cellos, basses, flutes, oboes, bassoons, clarinets, french horns, trombones, trumpets, tuba, choir and timpani; and it's all in sync and perfectly harmonised. What a musician indeed.

>my point is, you cannot compare moviemusic-makers to real rockstars, cause they don't stand a >chance!! no way! i know i'm opening eyes here, and that many, many agree with me. please speak up >people! let them know you love rock more than funny tunes!

Yeah, if you knew how much you've opened our eyes. And we though that by today, film scores earned themselves the degree of respect they deserve because they guide the viewer through the movies emotionally.

Boy, were we wrong. But I sincerely hope that such dead- heads are slowly vanishing from the face of our earth.

Man, you're seriously overestimating yourself and your pointless opinions!

[Composer_Fan 2]

Welcome to the boards, 'gkgyver'!

[THEfranz_conrad 0]

Gentlemen, love is the answer to the darkness! Not suspicion and fear!

[ChrisAfonso 186]

While we're talking about guitars: only because you've never heard WIlliams using a guitar doesn't mean that he really didn't.  

Yeah, that's utter nonsense. As we all know, Williams is even a guitar virtuoso!

-Chris

P.S: gkgyver, could it be you're also on the herr-der-ringe-film.de board? Your username sounds familiar...

[gkgyver 1,645]

Yeah, that's me on that board! These are strange times ...

A light from the shadow shall spring; here I am

It's true that one can be a fan of both, Star Wars AND Lord of the Rings

[Justin 2]

How is this thread diffrent from the first one?

Justin - Who thinks the whole business in silly...very silly indeed.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Maraquesh, what kind of reply do you expect? You've got your head so far up your ass your mouth smells what you eat.

gkgyver already explained most of what I wanted to say to you. So I can only repeat an earlier comment.

You're ignorant.

Good day.

- Marc

[Maraquesh 0]

Every single line of that post hurts. because this guy's saying the truth ...

thank you!!!!! finally someone who agrees!!!!

into the great wide open...

[jamesie 1]

Well, you are similar to Pres. Bush's ad campaigns. They take everything out of context and even subtract a word or two. And by the way, is Schindler's list not serious music? But lo' and behold! No lyrics!!! I take Schindler's list and the storyline the music is derived from VERY seriously. You must not take the story of Schindler's List seriously.Are you saying Nazi's are good? Are you racist? I bet you hate non-Nazi's! You fool.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

sorry newbie, but you're wrong,

the truly serious music of this day and age is rap. Its about something, not just flickering images, but about people and their struggles. Its expression and rage, with out the bombast and the clash of symbols.

It doesn't use plebian lyrics about all the vampire on ventura boulevard. You want to here serious music, come to the King Bisquit Blues Festival in Helena Arkansas, you'll find the most fantastic blues artists, and fantastic up and coming rap artist, who know the real drama of life and their music expresses it, not like pitiful John Williams or your insipid Tom Petty. Seriously what would an insulated queen like Elton John know about real life, and his music no longer reaches the people, he's just another Vegas sellout. Your ignorance is vast my young friend, and it shows, you call classical non-serious and funny, you imply that classical and movie scores are the same, what idiocy. Classical music is serious, only movie scores are non-serious, frivolous works, that offer society nothing but empty musical calories.

[bondo 33]

Every single line of that post hurts. because this guy's saying the truth ...

thank you!!!!! finally someone who agrees!!!!

into the great wide open...

Too bad you left the "NOT" out of that quote.....

[RenOldman 0]

sorry newbie, but you're wrong,

the truly serious music of this day and age is rap.

Sorry Joe rap died with 2Pac.

Yes, I know you don't mean that kind of rap. But he is/was the only decent "gangsta" rapper. He brought rap to the forefront and gave it another name. He made jokes when rapping. He was a star and then he was killed. I do not think this is the board to be talking about the many dead or alive theories but his life ended tragically and with it rap went. Unless of course everybody wants to hear about the illuminaty (sp) and the crazy ways of linking that to his death.........Which I do not want to write up on a JW board when I have talked about it many times on 2Pac boards.

PS: Everything after him, when it comes to "gangsta" rap is garbage. And with other rap it's about 75-90% garbage now.

[David Coscina 3]

I thought Public Enemy and Rage Against the Machine had some pretty interesting socio-political songs....not nuts about their music but the lyrics were thought provoking.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Interesting. That's the best-dressed I've ever seen him.

[mahler3 478]

Tom Petty's American Girl was used to great effect in The Silence of the Lambs.

Your nonsensical ranting has been entertaining, however as Ford A Thaxton would say: "You are entitled to your opinion, but quite frankly you have no idea what you are talking about!" Come to think of it your phrase "Into the great wide open" is similar to Ford saying "Next..." - Ford, reveal yourself?!

[KittBash 282]

8O You have got to be kidding me.....

Somone is going ot come onto a jwfan board and try to "educate" us on music????

Oh my..... opinions are fine but where do some people get off.

Should we infest a classic rock board now and try to *cough* "educate" them?

Brian99_1

[Composer_Fan 2]

Should we infest a classic rock board now and try to *cough* "educate" them?

Yeah, that's the ticket!

[Maraquesh 0]

movie scores are non-serious, frivolous works, that offer society nothing but empty musical calories.

uuhhhmm, isn't this basically what i was trying to say?

thanks for agreeing with me, but i don't really like to be repeated, thank you.

[bondo 33]

Wow, you ARE asking for it! Someone agrees with you and you get defensive

[David Coscina 3]

Alan Holdsworth eats little insects like Tom Petty for breakfast. So does Pat Metheny. And Metheny has written numerous film scores.

FYI- John Williams has perfect pitch. Maraquesh, do you know what that means? It means he can identify any pitch or tone without a pitched reference like a guitar. And Beethoven wrote his last few symphonies completely deaf. Could Tom Petty spew out one of his simple little ditties devoid of hearing....actually, I've heard his music. perhaps he is deaf.

Next.

[Composer_Fan 2]

thanks for agreeing with me, but i don't really like to be repeated, thank you.

[King Mark 3,624]

Rock stars are just that,stars.They rely on their image,flashy stage concerts and voice to maintain their popularity.The music in itself is not that important.when they die the music dies with them because they can't sing anymore.End of story

K.M.

[THEfranz_conrad 0]

Can't you people see this is a gag? Nobody is this transparently shallow and seeks out others SPECIFICALLY TO DISAGREE WITH.

[King Mark 3,624]

Yeah,screw that guy.

k.M.

[David Coscina 3]

Maraquesh, I just got off the phone with John Williams. He says that Petty cried like a bitch when he first heard the finale music from E.T.

[benefactor 3]

Curious is how long this Maraquesh guy will stand with this joke.

I'm still sure he is just a mocker.

[RenOldman 0]

Interesting. That's the best-dressed I've ever seen him.

I think that was for his court appearance.

Stefancos,

I sort of liked his style before.....but how many times can you make fun of people before it gets stale? How long can you complain about the fans you have? How long can you talk about killing/raping women before no one cares what you say?

Have you even heard 2Pacs music? I think he was still growing when he died in 1996 and the album "Makaveli: The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory " proves it. Just listen to "Against All Odds" and you will see I am right.

Yes I think most rap is crap, but 2Pac was and still is the best rapper ever.

[diskobolus 3]

The entertainment continues. La la la...

[RenOldman 0]

The entertainment continues. La la la...

I guess this sort of thing happens when everybody here is waiting for an album that 75-90% of them have already heard.

On a more serious note:

How can you appreciate the music you love when you have never seriously listened to anything else, since your love of said music started?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

movie scores are non-serious, frivolous works, that offer society nothing but empty musical calories.

uuhhhmm, isn't this basically what i was trying to say?

thanks for agreeing with me, but i don't really like to be repeated, thank you.

I'm sorry if I repeated you, I'll try to be more original in my agreement with you, but I do agree with some of your points, I mean really John is an old man, Tom is a middle aged man, he's far likely to be at his peak musically. Plus John uses too many notes, while Tom is more efficient in his use of the number of notes, chords, etc. John is more efficient in his use of lyrics as he rarely uses any, but sometimes he does, and they are quite bizarre, I mean he basically stole the lyrics for Double Trouble from William Shakespear.

I appreciate your posting, as its given this board a needed shaking up. Though they wont admit they agree with you, I've received over a dozen PM's stating that you know, this guy has a point, including a very prominent 5 digit poster who will remain nameless.

I look forward to more discussion with you.

[tony69 0]

I for one think its time to set things right. Classical composers are serious composers, that don't just write funny tunes. Mahler's stuff isn't funny. They are the world, as he put it. Nor was beethoven. My point is how many classical composers are able to hear what write without a piano in comparison to rock composers? How many have perfect pitch? How many needed to be trained musically (by training we're talking about 3 years of tonal harmony, orchestrations, counterpoint, then possibly another 2 of atonal theory, serialism etc)? Do you see Rock composers doing any of this? How many rock composers rewrite their stuff over 300 times? (beethoven is renowned for rewriting things OVER and OVER to perfect) And most importantly, how many rock composers use the idea of developing musical ideas? Not simply honking out your standard Verse-chorus-verse-chorus-middle 8-chorus pattern. But actually using a theme, and fiddling with it so you do retrograde inversions, etc?

Sorry guy, but most rock composers do not come fairly close to comparing with classical composers. There are some that i admire, including hendrix. And also guy, john williams knows a b chord from a f chord. Every composer knows what that is. But tell me, does your average rock player know the petrushka chord, neapolitan chord, or even simpler, a Calt chord? Serious music is classical music. Talk to most university professors, who are experts in thier fields. none of them will debate my statement. less that 30% of Rock music is serious, but 90% of classical music is serious.

Also, true music does not need lyrics to function (i hold this point of view with film music as well). Lyrics is something that RESTRICTS our interpretation of the music. It forces us to have only one interpretation. If you have the title "can you feel the love tonight," you're forced to conform to the idea that music is a love song or whatnot. as a music listener, you should have freedom in the way you listen to it.

AND, if you truly think anyone who can write a hit is a serious musician that is very sad IMO. what are hits? they have a great riff, awesome rhythm section, good hook, and often simple chord sequences (ex: i- VI-III-VI) that follow a formulaic path (your standard VCVCBridgeC). Hits are designed to cater to the common crowd so that an album sells. Thus they are FOR the audience. True music should be FOR the composer. if you are a true listener of music, the true beauty in albums lie in the stuff OTHER than the hit. they show the experimental side of the composer/musicians and how they are moving into other territories.

To sum up, classical composers are much more trained than rock musicians. They have infinetly more skills than the average rock musician and spend much more time writing a serious piece. next time, please think of your positions before stating them because they could be based on seriously flawed information.

[Bowie 45]

God I can't believe some of you guys are STILL falling for this raving lunatic facade.

[Composer_Fan 2]

^I know, right? I gave up with typing long argument posts after i read the first paragraph of this nonsense, lol. And yet, I still manage to reply.....

[SturgisPodmore 0]

Okay, Joe is joking. Do some of you not see that?

Maraquesh, I just got off the phone with John Williams. He says that Petty cried like a bitch when he first heard the finale music from E.T.

LOL LOL LOL

Guess where that's going.

Maraquesh, how the hell do you expect us to believe you? Your claims are so unfathomably unbelieveable that not many here still take you seriously.

Into the great wide realm of reality . . .

~Sturgis

[SturgisPodmore 0]

Yeah, if you knew how much you've opened our eyes. And we though that by today, film scores earned themselves the degree of respect they deserve because they guide the viewer through the movies emotionally.  

Boy, were we wrong. But I sincerely hope that such dead- heads are slowly vanishing from the face of our earth.

Man, you're seriously overestimating yourself and your pointless opinions!

You're a godsend.

~Sturgis

[RenOldman 0]

Yeah,

tony that Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture piece is far from being serious.

Lets make that the point of this thread:

Classical Music that isn't serious.

I know its a JW board.....but people do not want to talk about the original poster wanted so.....lets start!!

[Lurker 5]

Neil