About the themes of ROTS

[THEfranz_conrad 0]

Well, there's no doubt it was a lot easier than doing something else. The question I was addressing was whether the reuse of the Funeral music was more appropriate than what else might have been written...

[King Mark 3,631]

I have a special request for you Chris ALfonzo:

Can you make a midi of The Dark Side Beckons?

K.M.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Why a midi, Kink Marq?

I made an mp3 with samples recently, but it's just Choir and Strings. (To test out how it would sound with a more full choir... but I guess the samples can't do it justice).

http://www.chrisafonso.de/music/DarkSideBeckons.mp3

[ACViola 0]

Well... I had issues with this too, but then I realised that the track was called 'Padme's Destiny'... her destiny is in fact to bring to life the two children whose political and spiritual development will enable Anakin to fulfil the prophecy and bring balance to the Force. So in association with her destiny, the Force theme is eminently appropriate. The music isn't saying she's a Jedi, it's saying that her life is part of the fabric of the Force, just as Qui-Gon's was.

I agree in the sense that she's a part of the Force as a living being, and that she also is the mother of the two Force-driven heroes in Ep. 4, 5, and 6. However, when Yoda dies (not right before when he is having his conversation with Luke or right after when Luke is complaining to R2D2) why is the Force theme not played? Leia's theme is played to indicate that she's the other Skywalker, but some other combination of string parts is also played. In addition, when Shmi dies, very similar (if not the same) music is played as when Yoda dies. I believe that Yoda, Qui-Gon, Shmi, and Padme all have important roles in shaping Anakin, Luke, and Leia. So why do Yoda and Shmi get different music for their deaths than Qui-Gon and Padme for their funerals? Am I comparing apples and oranges?

Also, I have a question about a very different subject. The Emperor's theme is played obviously in Ep. 6. It is also played in Ep. 1 and 2, but not when Chancellor Palpatine is present...it is played when Darth Sidious is present. Some Star Wars fan sites have not confirmed that Palpatine is Sidious, and we don't really get a confirmation until perhaps Ep. III, since we had never heard of Sidious in Ep. 4,5,6. Am I too quick in deciding that Sidious is Palpatine, or does the music give it away?

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Palpatine is Sidious is the Emperor. I know a lot of people were unclear about this, but I thought it was obvious from the first time I saw TPM.

Ray Barnsbury

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Honestly, go read the book/screenplay if you still don't believe it

[THEfranz_conrad 0]

I agree in the sense that she's a part of the Force as a living being, and that she also is the mother of the two Force-driven heroes in Ep. 4, 5, and 6. However, when Yoda dies (not right before when he is having his conversation with Luke or right after when Luke is complaining to R2D2) why is the Force theme not played? Leia's theme is played to indicate that she's the other Skywalker, but some other combination of string parts is also played. In addition, when Shmi dies, very similar (if not the same) music is played as when Yoda dies. I believe that Yoda, Qui-Gon, Shmi, and Padme all have important roles in shaping Anakin, Luke, and Leia. So why do Yoda and Shmi get different music for their deaths than Qui-Gon and Padme for their funerals? Am I comparing apples and oranges?

Well... I meant to explain why the music for Padme's Destiny wasn't as inappropriate as we first imagined, not to explain how it is consistent with the scoring of all other deaths in the sextet... :oops: But here goes. First a note on the scoring of Padme's Destiny - there is a distinct parallel in the scenes. After Qui-Gon's death, Anakin's future is up for grabs, and it is decided he will be trained as a Jedi. The Skywalker twins on the other hand after their mother's death are sent to normal family upbringings, not Jedi training. So there's comparison and contrast at work.

For Yoda's death, the Force theme isn't played, this is true. On the other hand, for Qui-Gon's death (not his funeral, but his death), the Force theme isn't played either. And for Obi-wan's death, Leia's theme is played, so I wouldn't try to draw too large a picture of how deaths are scored in SW... Also there's usually one aspect of a scene that's most important, and that's usually what the music is relating to. So when Yoda vanishes, the descending motif both mimics the diegetic action (a collapsing sheet where sick Yoda lay), itself an extension of Luke's mood (he is suddenly alone). His final words have been scored with both his theme and the Force theme, reminding the viewer who needed to be reminded of his identity and relationship to the Force, but the death itself is given a unique motif which directly relates to Luke's sense of being the only Jedi left.

Now when Shmi dies, the most important implication is how Anakin feels about this. Now as I recall - since I haven't seen this film since it was released, there is a lonely horn motif that appears (itself one of Williams' best motifs from the otherwise dull The Patriot) reminding us of Shmi's theme (or is it the leaving home theme?) from the scene where Anakin left his mother in The Phantom Menace. He has been unable to fulfil his hope on leaving Tatooine - that he, the heroic Jedi, would return and free all the slaves and his mother. Well, the Jedi order flattened all hopes of that, and now, for all his Jedi powers, he is unable to save his mother from death. So the motif which accompanied his sad departure from home is ironically twisted into something dark and troubled, anticipating the permutation of the love theme which will accompany Anakin's frenzied slaughter of the Sand People. [interestingly enough, this motif is reprised in the trumpets I think in 'Palpatine's Dark Teachings' (2:05-2:27) on the ROTS OST. I imagine the scene in which it appears is one in which Palpatine offers Anakin the chance to do for Padme what he couldn't do for his own mother - prolong life.]

Also, I have a question about a very different subject. The Emperor's theme is played obviously in Ep. 6. It is also played in Ep. 1 and 2, but not when Chancellor Palpatine is present...it is played when Darth Sidious is present. Some Star Wars fan sites have not confirmed that Palpatine is Sidious, and we don't really get a confirmation until perhaps Ep. III, since we had never heard of Sidious in Ep. 4,5,6. Am I too quick in deciding that Sidious is Palpatine, or does the music give it away?

For me, it's not surprise that we haven't heard much of the Emperor's theme in the ROTS score, since most of the Palpatine's presence in this final prequel is as Chancellor Palpatine, not as Darth Sidious. We will probably hear it for the first time in the film when Sidious drops his facade after **** killing Mace Windu ****.

[John Crichton 4]

Palpatine is Sidious is the Emperor.  I know a lot of people were unclear about this, but I thought it was obvious from the first time I saw TPM.

You mean there's people who didn't figure that out right away?

[ACViola 0]

Apparently. I was reading a site that said that Sidious is the mysterious Dark Lord of the Sith...actually, I think it's from some data bank from http://www.starwars.com/databank/character...ious/index.html, ...and I just figured that everyone knew that Palpatine is Sidious...based on the music and all...it is quite clear in TPM. However, I thought maybe I was jumping the gun since I read that it was not known who Sidious is. But good. I'm glad I heard the music right (and saw Palpatine's nose right)

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Yeah, actually the nose was a big giveaway. That and the voice. And the hooded cloak. And the SAME ACTOR.

Ray Barnsbury

[ChrisAfonso 186]

They would have pulled a Keyzer Söze if they had wanted to fool anyone.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I've finally found the second appearance of Anakin's AotC motif on the RotS album.

You can hear it in Grievous Speaks to Lord Sidious at 1:15 - 1:19

It's not quite the same as the one in Palpatine's Teachings, it may be a stretch in fact, but it's what I was referring to earlier in this thread.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

There's a small motif at the beginning of the quiet part of "Grievous speaks...", a falling/rising 3-note figure in the harp (the second harp figure to be exact, although it's a variation of the first 3-note harp figure), which is heard again somewhere in "Birth of the Twins, this time in the basses... I wonder if this has a meaning...

[diskobolus 3]

I'm sitting here listening to "The Immolation Scene" and to me it sounds completely devoid of theme. If this the case? If so, why didn't Williams at least provide hints of Anakin's Theme, the Force Theme, or so on? Maybe not all of those could have worked, but one of them probably would have.

[John Crichton 4]

I'm sitting here listening to "The Immolation Scene" and to me it sounds completely devoid of theme. If this the case? If so, why didn't Williams at least provide hints of Anakin's Theme, the Force Theme, or so on? Maybe not all of those could have worked, but one of them probably would have.

I think The Immolation Scene has a thematic link with Lament/Anakin's Betrayal.

[King Mark 3,631]

Doesn't The Immolation Scene have a distorted Force Theme at the end?

K.M.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

It has subtle hints of the "Anakin's Betrayal" Motif, yes. Otherwise it's (at least the first half) mostly athematic string writing (not totally... the motif from the beginning reoccurs several times). But what about that? It's perfect in its agonizing mood it portrays. Similar writing can be found in JFK's "Arlington", and I love that track!

Regarding the Force theme, KM, I see what you mean. It's possible, though a bit vague.

[batmanand 0]

I love that quiet, but definite, statment of ATS in Padme's Ruminations. It still sends shivers down my spine, even after what must be 10 listens.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

The first part of Mcneely's Night Skyes from Shadows of the empire sounds coincidentically similar to a part of padmes ruminations...

[Bowie 45]

Is it just me or does "Luke and Leia's" Theme clearly (though for anyone else, subtly) begin with Luke's Theme (0:34-0:39, especially how the descending "triplet" is clarified by not heading down to the tonic too quickly at 0:38)? Then Leia's Theme, (0:40-0:44, with an additional tonic in between the major 6th leap, to match the preceding statement of Luke's Theme, and a similar rhythm).

I just thought this might persuade some of you that Williams thinks about subtle inherent relationships in his themes more than you think.

[Adam 1]

If anything, Leia’s theme is alluded to pretty closely in the introduction at about :14- :20. That’s

much more clear than what you cited, IMO. We can make educated guesses as what was in JW’s

mind with many of the examples you cite but its just that, a guess. My guess in this case is that

any similarity is coincidental (with the exception of the one I mentioned which seems more

overt) but I could be wrong. And to the extent that you imply that one has to be a trained

musician to notice, it persuades me even more it probably wasn’t intentional on JW’s part since I see his approach as being accessible and I think film music ought to be.

- Adam

[Bowie 45]

You guys just don't get it. Seriously. His film music can be very accessible and also have inherent subtle relationships between themes etc. At the end of Empire Strikes Back i doubt most listeners realise that it's Darth Vader's Theme in the orchestral hits. Or when Darth Vader dies there are three chords after the harp and tubular bell which is also Darth Vader's Theme. I didn't even realise these things upon initial listens.

My point is that Williams has to "come up with a theme" each time, and I'm POSITIVE that he spends some time making sure it "fits" the sound world by crafting one, say about Luke and Leia, around Luke's and Leia's themes.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

So, does anyone else prefer the funeral music in "Anakin's Bretayal" before the more blown-out "Quin-Gon's Funeral"?

[Morlock 11]

I do. I was never a huge fan of the Funeral music (though sections of it are irresistable), and JW reaches more poignancy in "Anakin's Betrayal".

[Adam 1]

You guys just don't get it. Seriously. His film music can be very accessible and also have inherent subtle relationships between themes etc. At the end of Empire Strikes Back i doubt most listeners realise that it's Darth Vader's Theme in the orchestral hits. Or when Darth Vader dies there are three chords after the harp and tubular bell which is also Darth Vader's Theme. I didn't even realise these things upon initial listens.

My point is that Williams has to "come up with a theme" each time, and I'm POSITIVE that he spends some time making sure it "fits" the sound world by crafting one, say about Luke and Leia, around Luke's and Leia's themes.

Well I cited an example where Leia’s Theme seems to appear in overt fashion with Luke and Leia’s Theme. So, yes, he makes connections - I just don’t think its the ones you mentioned which seem far too obscure, IMO. However, I’m not dogmatic about it and I said explicitly you might be right. In contrast you’re saying that you are “POSITIVE” that you are right but have given no evidence that you have special access to JW’s brain that we don’t have. There’s been lots of connections mentioned in discussions I’ve read including the ones you mentioned. Each case has to be judged on its own merits and its often a matter of different interpretations, I think. But no one denies the connections in Anakin's Theme to Darth Vader's Theme, for example, so therfore no one denies that he is capable of doing it. It doesn't mean I should go along with every example that is brought up.

When JW has spoken about creating themes, he’s always stressed coming up with the right combination of notes that will connect with the audience and communicate the particular idea. I think the practical side of film scoring is generally what he stresses and that’s another reason I’m skeptical. In general, I think the Star Warsy aspect and connectedness of his themes comes mostly from his use of orchestration and his ability to tap into that intangible Star Wars texture in the arrangments. In fact, given that he’s written 6 scores of star wars music its remarkable to me how different his themes all are while still feeling connected to the same musical universe.

- Adam

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Well spoken as usual, Adam. I'm inclined to agree with what you've been saying about this subject. There certainly are intentional links between the numerous SW themes and scores, but I just don't see Williams crafting such intricately subtle connections as some have suggested (or insisted).

Ray Barnsbury

[THEfranz_conrad 0]

I feel that whether it's intentional or not, the similarities between the themes by Bowie deepen our understanding of the themes to the point where we may be touching on the subconscious creative process of Williams. It's the same as arguing about Shakespeare's model of the tragic hero - we can't even prove the plays were written by him, yet we see connections and theorise about what ties Othello, Hamlet, Antony, Macbeth and Lear together. Art in general doesn't need artistic intention to motivate analysis. It's interesting to counterpoint what the work actually IS against what the artist thought they were doing. So keep up the analysis Bowie.

[Henry B 50]

I agree, a lot of this is the subconscious. But you know? I still persist that some of these so-called thematic references are total coincidences. Twelve-tone scale and all that!

[THEfranz_conrad 0]

I know what you mean. I know it's one thing I'd love to hear Williams speak in some extended audio commentary on the DVD accompanying the OST for Revenge of the Sith. (Now that would be an extra worth more than the product being paid for!)

Influences is another tricky thing. Clearly (from the production reports), Williams has to endure a temp track when spotting these films, and while the post-production team are reasonably confident Williams always strikes off in his own directions, you do have to wonder. When percussion solos appeared punctuated by very interesting brass in 'Chase Through Coruscant', I found myself listening to various brass-percussion action sequences from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and hearing the connections. Was it temp track influence, or an independent tip-of-the-hat to another artist. Same with ROTS - was a Lisa Gerrard track or an Anne Lively theme lift in the 'Padme's Ruminations' spot, or is this another independent Williams decision? I respect him either way - his flexibility of palette in these later days is very impressive.

[Bowie 45]

I'm sorry for insisting my opinion on you guys. Not fair. So I'll stop now, but if anyone DOES agree with me, feel free to add me to MSN (bowiescores@hotmail.com). I personally just can't appreciate that Williams - the genius that he is - relies on coincidence to create a new theme. If you were trying to come up with a theme for Luke and Leia, I would think the first thing you do is play both themes over and over again. Then you go away and whistle or hum things that come to your head, throw in a open-5th leap at the start, add in some da-dada-daaa's from Leia's Theme (0:18, as you were saying, Adam), some dadada-daa-daaaa's from Luke's Theme (3:31) introduce it with two solo woodwinds indicating two twins in perfect harmony. Maybe a few very subtle references to Vader's Theme (3:44) because he's their father. Tie it all up and make it unique and, first and foremost, related to ITSELF more than overtly referring to other themes, and thus it becomes a new original theme, which can then be quoted when relevant... and there's the brilliance of Williams.

Or just ignore me

[THEfranz_conrad 0]

Bowie, please continue putting your thoughts down here! They're hardly unwelcome, even if not everyone agrees with you. You should consider writing an essay on the relationships between the themes of the sextet. I've always thought the relationships between Yoda's theme, the Force theme and Qui-Gon's theme were particularly impressive. And clearly Williams developed the Trade Federation March into the Arena/Separatist March which then was permuted into a theme for General Grievous.

[Adam 1]

Influences is another tricky thing. Clearly (from the production reports), Williams has to endure a temp track when spotting these films, and while the post-production team are reasonably confident Williams always strikes off in his own directions, you do have to wonder. When percussion solos appeared punctuated by very interesting brass in 'Chase Through Coruscant', I found myself listening to various brass-percussion action sequences from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon and hearing the connections. Was it temp track influence, or an independent tip-of-the-hat to another artist. Same with ROTS - was a Lisa Gerrard track or an Anne Lively theme lift in the 'Padme's Ruminations' spot, or is this another independent Williams decision? I respect him either way - his flexibility of palette in these later days is very impressive.

With regard to Chase through Coroscant, the original plan was to only have Asian percussion and then Ben Burtt was going to show off his musical sound effects. JW, to his credit, ignored half of that request and incorporated Asian percussion along with more traditional full orchestra underscore, probably recognizing that the scene needed a full orchestral backing. So then Burtt had to change his sound design. So its a good example of JW coming to the rescue and making a bizarre decision by somebody else (why Asian percussion?) and compromising to improve it into something that works well with the film.

But, yes, I imagine the answer to why they wanted Asian percussion is that they fell in love with the temp track and tested Burt’s ideas next to the score that you mention, most likely. And I agree that RotS has temptrack fingerprints on it as well but I’ll be anxious to see how the music works in their scenes.

- Adam

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Your opinions are valid, Bowie. Even if I don't necessarily agree with some of them, they're interesting to read.

Ray Barnsbury