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Main Title problems with the trumpet section in Star Wars


WedgeAntilles

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First, I'm new to the boards here but I've been lurking for a bit and I definitely think this is the place for people that know a thing or three about not only John Williams, but music, too. So I hope I'm not too out of line with my post. (And, if this has already been discussed ad nauseam let me know and I will delete the post.)

Is it me or has the Main Title gotten substantially worse from the OT to the PT? Mainly, and I hate to say it, in the trumpet section.

The Original Trilogy trumpet section in the LSO, if I am not mistaken, featured Philip Jones and I'm not sure but I think Elgar Howarth was in the section. Anyway, those two had chops...MAJOR chops and throughout the entire ANH score one could tell that they came to play. Anyway, the opening thematic material is played with authority and splendid intonation.

I don't know if the same trumpet players played on ESB but the recording, to me, is crisper (engineering better?) and the trumpets are still playing with the same authority. And when we get to ROTJ, we get pretty much the same thing, good and solid playing.

When we get to TPM, the trumpets play, well, like they're either afraid to play, or they've taken the theme for granted, their intonation is questionable in the initial go at it, too. I nearly fell out of my chair when I first heard it. For AotC they got worse...and for ROTS so far (based on the leaked score I have..even at 128kbps...) they got better but that isn't saying a whole lot (and I'm not sure if it wasn't tracked in from TPM as it doesn't sound like AotC).

So, is it the fact that Sony and their engineers, or whomever, botched the Prequel recordings, bad trumpet playing (or bored trumpet playing) or what? I say bored because it makes one wonder if the players were just going through the motions, "Ok, chaps, let's have a go at this and get to the good stuff..." I'd hate to think professionals would blow it off but I'm not sure in this case...especially when I've heard some decent playing throughout the Prequel scores by the trumpets.

Thank you for your time.

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I think that mastermind trumpeter Maurice "Red Face" Murphy sabotaged the whole scenario.

Hitch

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My guess is that by not re-recording the main title it saves money.

I can't imagine it saves that much money, a minute and a half of music that the LSO could probably play from memory.

Jeff

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My guess is that by not re-recording the main title it saves money.

Neil

The Star Wars Main Title has been recorded countless times (with or without John Williams), so it doesnt make a difference whether its recorded one or two more times. JW doesnt record the Main Title three times for the PT for the same reason he always uses the same recording when a major piece is featured on a soundtrack more than once (i.e. "Hymn to the Fallen," "The Patriot," or even "Theme From Jurassic Park.") My guess is JW wants to sound his themes the same, without the slight variations which would entail if the same piece is recorded twice. So he picks the perfect performance and thats it. He doesnt want people to say "I like the Star Wars Main Title from TPM better than that of the AotC" when in fact it is the same piece and arrangement.

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Yet he re-recorded the SW main title three times for the earlier sequels.

That may be because recording technology was improving. Certainly there is a huge leap between Star Wars and Empire, and Return of the Jedi is the cleanest.

Perhaps they thought they could do no better than the recording for Menace.

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Philip Jones and Elgar Howarth were not playing with the section on the Star Wars films according to moviebrass.com. Maurice Murphy was principal at that time. I do agree with you on the issue of The Phantom Menace lacking any real power, which is odd because there is some fine trumpetplaying later on in the score. I personally feel that the main title on Return of the Jedi is the weakest. The trumpets sound odd to me and there is a nasty frack at one point. You can't miss it.

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The prequels all use the same recording of the main title.

My favorite performance is the one heard in Star Wars.

Neil

Actually they were recorded again for both TPM and AOTC bot the TPM recording was used for ROTS...

I prefer the recording in The Phantom Menace, You can really feel the fullness of the orchestra and the lovely bass when the timpanis and snare drums come in.. Plus obviouslly the quality is much better than when it was originally recorded for Star Wars... The AOTC Main Title seemed a little "thin" almost to my ears...

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I thought it had been established that the AOTC version was really the same as TPM. Which is not to say that Williams didn't re-record it for AOTC, just that Lucas for whatever reason may have decided to stick with the 1999 recording.

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From a Trumpet Player's point of view - the most cringeworthy verison is ROTJ....listen to it again....

Philip Jones I think was there - not sure about Howarth, James Watson I believe featured too.....

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From a Trumpet Player's point of view - the most cringeworthy verison is ROTJ....listen to it again....

Philip Jones I think was there - not sure about Howarth, James Watson I believe featured too.....

Thanks, Greg and GWU08...my faulty memory at work...I had the LP of ANH and it had the roster of the LSO, if I remember right, which I obviously gaffed on PJ and Howarth...

Anyway, being a trumpeter since 1976 I also have a tendency to pick on them a little more (as if I could play at that level....)

I dunno, I guess when one considers the strength of the playing in the rest of the scores in the Prequels it just makes me grit my teeth to listen to the Main Title(s)...

Being on these boards and reading about all these edits has me thinking about what I need to learn to do...I know I've got a ton of software for editing DVDs and all that so I know it can't be too much different...

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I'd like to hear Wynton Marsalis on a Star Wars recording, as principal... have any of you heard his recording of Haydn's Trumpet concerto? marvelous piece of playing!

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In the prequel main titles, the trumpets do seem more reserved, but I actually kind of like it. It's less in-your-face i guess. I'll have to go listen to them all again, refresh my memory. Is there any difference between the prequel main titles? I thought I read somewhere that AOTC was mixed different, like the snare drum was louder or something...??

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Maurice Murphy did retire from the LSO for a period of years so i'm not sure if he played on TPM or AOTC, but he definitely played on Revenge of the Sith

He is the only member of the LSO to be invited to play golf with Williams in LA as stated during the Feb LSO / Williams concert - lucky man! :mrgreen:

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Williams also invites "Red Face" to play the Main Theme of Star Wars when he conducts his music in London. Williams treats this guy as a god. It is almost as if he believes that Murphy is his mascot, the one that "made" Star Wars. Fact was, the performance I saw of him was embarrassing. I got the impression that Red Face came straight out of the pub before he temporarily joined the LSO again to play Star Wars. He just couldn't blow the high notes anymore.

----------------

Alex Cremers

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Williams also invites "Red Face" to play the Main Theme of Star Wars when he conducts his music in London. Williams treats this guy as a god. It is almost as if he believes that Murphy is his mascot, the one that "made" Star Wars. Fact was, the performance I saw of him was embarrassing. I got the impression that Red Face came straight out of the pub before he temporarily joined the LSO again to play Star Wars. He just couldn't blow the high notes anymore.

----------------

Alex Cremers

2 things I noticed when I saw Murphy playing in a film music concert in London in 2002:

1- His face was indeed very red.

2- Looked like he took naps during parts of the concert....

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Murphy did give the Star Wars scores a certain sound. He sounds fantastic on the clips I have heard from Revenge of the Sith, by the way.

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That may be because recording technology was improving

Exactly, nothing to do with the actual trumpet playing at all. Close-miking was employed when the original trilogy was recorded (more so with SW) meaning that the recording was more in-your-face (for want of a better phrase).

This is particularly obvious with the strong timpani presence during the SW main title and dry-French horn sound as a result of the instruments not being allowed to resonate accordingly.

Sorry to bump this, but I was just catching up on older posts - glad the site's back online! 8O

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Williams also invites "Red Face" to play the Main Theme of Star Wars when he conducts his music in London. Williams treats this guy as a god. It is almost as if he believes that Murphy is his mascot, the one that "made" Star Wars. Fact was, the performance I saw of him was embarrassing. I got the impression that Red Face came straight out of the pub before he temporarily joined the LSO again to play Star Wars. He just couldn't blow the high notes anymore.

----------------

Alex Cremers

2 things I noticed when I saw Murphy playing in a film music concert in London in 2002:

1- His face was indeed very red.

2- Looked like he took naps during parts of the concert....

That brings back fond memories. I remember I was gonna blow an tranquilizer dart at him. Only you interfered with my plans for the last time. That was a good laugh. Did you not notice the bottle of Guinness on the floor next to him?

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