"Battle of the Heroes" replaced with DotF?

[Jim Ware 526]

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/sh...threadid=232906

If this is true, is anyone surprised?

[Hitch 57]

Not me. That hack Lucas should be flogged through the fields of Marin County. Anyone interested?

[deimos 0]

Damn Lucas. I just hope the reviewer made a mistake.

[Hitch 57]

Unless that projectionist was watching THE HITCHHIKER'S GUIDE TO THE GALAXY? Could easily happen!

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Question is, what exactly does this guy mean? We know there is some DotF during one of the Duels, and always was. So according to this guy, does DotF appear several times, or just once? In that case he could just have made the assumption that where he heard DoztF, there originally was something else.

[TIEfighter 0]

Well, from what i know "Duel of the Fates" was always meant to be heard during the Battle, and since the reviewer said ->"with NEW RECORDINGS featuring "Duel of the Fates" from Phantom Menace"<- and not all the music from the movie is released on the score, how can we know Williams didn´t want it to be heard?

[TownerFan 4,983]

Well, we should be prepared for the inevitable (i.e.: retracking from earlier SW scores) of course, but the claim of the reviewer isn't very clear or precise. What we know from the recording sessions report appeared on SW.com is that surely the DotF theme will appear at one point in Episode III.

Anyway, since the film has started the previews, we should know more details in the next few days... one thing that brings me curiosity is the fact that it's been said that the digital version will be different from the film version. The former will have an additional scene which isn't included in the latter, so probably there will be difference in the sound mix as well...

[King Mark 3,631]

Maybe BotH was dropped from the final film and DotF used instead.If so,at least,were lucky Lucas made this decision AFTER the c.d. was released,or we'd have weird edits of DotF on the c.d. to cover up the fact a new theme was ever written(I think Lucas will give no second thought of hacking up Williams music,but will try to hide it from us if he can)

K.M.

[Seth 67]

How can Lucas do this? In the liner notes to the releases he practically wets himself with praise over how brilliant JW's score is and then goes and hacks it to pieces in the final cut. It is especially astonishing when the score was the one thing about the first film that exceeded his expectations and he says that he wouldn't have it any other way. I just don't understand it.

[gkgyver 1,645]

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[Miz 139]

Better not wet your pants over it.

Perhaps Anakin vs ObiWan is, as it sounds, a selection of music from key parts of the duel - the rest is scored with much of the Battle of the Heroes theme (a small new chunk has been heard in a spoiler video)...and perhaps some really well integrated quotes of Duel of the Fates...

Perhaps Lucas has used Duel of the Fates samples in one of the many other duels or action sequences, as he did in AoTC...

Perhaps the reviewer didn't know what they were hearing or talking about, or they saw an early print or an old temp of the film?

Like I said, don't wet your pants just yet, |=4|||3015

[TIEfighter 0]

Yeah, and keep in mind that the Obi-Wan vs. Anakin duel will be about 20 (!!!) minutes long, and we have heard maximally 8 minutes of music for it like Miz said, don´t wet your pants just yet

[gkgyver 1,645]

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[TIEfighter 0]

20 minutes ?! Are you serious?

Well, I wouldn´t say it´s 20 minutes of pure fighting, there´ll probably be some more talking during this duel than during the other prequel fights, similar to the fights in the original trilogy, and i don´t know if Lucas cuts between different storylines (like he did at the end of TPM), but there´s definitely a lot of duel music unreleased, and I really hope that we´ll be able to hear that in Episode III

[AHerrera83 0]

You shouldn't put so much faith on a layperson's opinions, as they are not in the know. This is doubly true for Internet sources.

Ultimately, it's what works better in the film what counts, and I do remember reading somewhere that when Lucas first heard DotF during the Episode I scoring sessions, he told Williams that this would be the music heard for the climatic moments of this third film.

The re-use of themes has been constant throughout the series. it's only logical that DotF would be reinforced in this climatic moment.

As for the absence of CD music in the film, since BotH is a concert version, it's not in the film in that form. This person probably assumes this was the actual underscore for the battle and if that's the case, he's just plain wrong.

[TIEfighter 0]

...and I do remember reading somewhere that when Lucas first heard DotF during the Episode I scoring sessions, he told Williams that this would be the music heard for the climatic moments of this third film.

Yeah, I believe that statement can be heard on the Episode I DVD, either in the "The Beginning"-Documentary or in one of the webdocs....

[QMM 4]

*cough* I have seen a small 30 sec clip of the duel between Anakin and Obi Wan but the thing is that in the background Battle of the Heroes is used because they get into a force push fight which brings up the force theme from BOTH. *cough*

So I think we can assume safely now that it is NOT a concert piece, or not completely at least

Max

[Damo 0]

Well I think there going to lot of repetitive of the "Battle of The Heroes " in Anakin V Obi-Wan in all the 20 minutes with the altered Darth Vader theme from "The Clash of the Lightsabers" in The Empire Strikes Back. I dont know if there will be Duel of the Fates in it.

[John Crichton 4]

*cough* I have seen a small 30 sec clip of the duel between Anakin and Obi Wan but the thing is that in the background Battle of the Heroes is used because they get into a force push fight which brings up the force theme from BOTH. *cough*

So I think we can assume safely now that it is NOT a concert piece, or not completely at least

Max

Are you sure it's not the Force Theme statement from Anakin vs. Obi-Wan?

[Adam 1]

My assumption was that this was not a pure concert piece. And actually, DotF was not a pure concert piece either. He just expanded it into one. My guess is that BotH was mostly supposed to be used as underscore and that's one of the reasons it feels kind of disjointed because he keeps changing the pace to fit the action. The ending was probably later added, maybe a little more. The Force theme definitely sounds like underscore and it makes sense that it would go for that scene that Max mentioned.

- Adam

[King Mark 3,631]

Yes,if he battle is 20 minutes long, I assume DotF will be used somewhere in there.Also,Anakin vs Obi Wan on the c.d. seems edited from several places in the battle,so that music might be scattered through out.We also got a trailer that has the BotH theme proeminently,so Lucas can't have ditched that.

K.M.

[Adam 1]

Its hard to know if this person's report is accurate but it would be a minor miracle if there weren't some pretty serious editing/tracking problems in the film. So on one hand I don't necessarily trust this report because there are reasons he might be mistaken. On the other hand, the prequels have set too bad a precedent for me to be very hopeful. So its better to prepare myself for the worst, I figure, and then maybe I can be pleasantly surprised.

- Adam

[Lurker 5]

DotF was not a pure concert piece either. He just expanded it into one.

The cue on the album "Duel of the Fates" is a concert piece. It was never intended to be heard in that form in the film. It was hacked up and placed into the film replacing what Williams originally intended.

As for the source of this review, you can totally trust that he saw that movie. I met Peter a few years when he projected a new print of Raiders. He's a credible source and even seems to know film music. He may be onto something. But it's probably best until Elvis Jones or the FSM crew sees this thing before we really realize how the music is treated in the movie.

I'm not optimistic.

Neil

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Plus, the guy did say "new recordings"....that seems to imply score written for RotS, in which case it would be just fine.

Ray Barnsbury

[Jim Ware 526]

Of course, there are lots of unused recordings from The Phantom Menace that could be mistaken for new recordings.

I'm not going to get worked up over it yet. Perhaps we should all wait until we've seen the film and we have some more definitive proof?

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Well, the Imperial March at the end of AotC was also a new recording...

[Adam 1]

My point about DotF, Neil, is that based on JW’s comments he indicated that he went back on Lucas’s suggestion and extended it into a concert piece. So he left the impression that some of that material was written for the film before it got re-edited and then eventually it was just tracked in from the concert arrangment like you say, after the re-edits to the film.

My only question with regard to the source is does he know for sure that DotF replaced

something original? Hearing DotF doesn’t necessarily mean that it replaced his original writing

but it might be clearer when we have a chance to see the film.

- Adam

[Sandor 797]

According to Biggs over at MF.com (who has seen the film) Duel of the Fates is heard during the YODA VS. PALPATINE battle and we all know that Battle of the Heroes is heard during the ANAKIN VS. OBI-WAN fight.

Simple.

He also said that about 90% of the music in ROTS is new and about 10% (duh!) is music from earlier films.

[Jeshopk 8]

*cough* I have seen a small 30 sec clip of the duel between Anakin and Obi Wan but the thing is that in the background Battle of the Heroes is used because they get into a force push fight which brings up the force theme from BOTH. *cough*  

So I think we can assume safely now that it is NOT a concert piece, or not completely at least

But the choral force theme is also in Anakin vs. ObiWan, so I don't see your point. This doesn't prove that BOTH is in the movie, just that Anakin vs ObiWan probably is, as originally thought.

[Snowster 23]

I think that BotH is not a concert version. Take a look at the Hyperspace web document about the score of ep. III. where the film is playing on the big screen from 05:43 to 05:48 and you can see a sync point and all.

Of course it could be edited, but the BotH performance in the documentary seems to be the same version as on the cd.

Of course this doesn't mean that it couldn't be replaced in the final film, but could at mean that it was meant to be used as is.

-Snowster

[Jeshopk 8]

According to Biggs over at MF.com (who has seen the film) Duel of the Fates is heard during the YODA VS. PALPATINE battle and we all know that Battle of the Heroes is heard during the ANAKIN VS. OBI-WAN fight.

This brings up an interesting point about Duel of the Fates. It is used only when there is an event that will decide whether the galaxy falls to the dark side (whether the prophecy brings Balance to the Force).

A) QuiGon vs. Maul

If QuiGon wins, he trains Anakin and Anakin brings balance to the force without becoming Vader. If Maul wins, "the chosen one" is poorly trained and Palpatine's main threat becomes his apprentice.

B) Anakin's search for mother (his rage)

If Anakin saves his mother, he won't take his first step down the dark path. If she dies, he will know rage and execute a village of women and children. (once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny)

C) Yoda vs. Sidious

If Yoda wins the Dark Side loses. Anakin is killed and is never made into a cyborg. If Sidious wins, Darth Vader is born and the Empire prevails.

Cleverly, Williams saw that the ObiWan versus Anakin duel was a tragic turn between friends. There is no "Duel of the Fates" between the whole Light side and Dark sides of the force. It is a plea for a friend to become sane, and a twisted hatred toward a former master, tinged with tragedy and personal consequences. The universe did not hang in the balance over the fight this time.

[John Crichton 4]

Damn, I think you're really onto something there Jesse. Excellent analysis.

[RuBen_Kenobi 19]

According to Biggs over at MF.com (who has seen the film) Duel of the Fates is heard during the YODA VS. PALPATINE battle and we all know that Battle of the Heroes is heard during the ANAKIN VS. OBI-WAN fight.  

Simple.

He also said that about 90% of the music in ROTS is new and about 10% (duh!) is music from earlier films.

It sounds good to me

[gkgyver 1,645]

Alternatively, George Lucas just realised that "Battle Of The Heroes" is not nearly as good as "Duel of the Fates" and simply exchanged them

On a serious note, I can't understand why Lucas does something like that. Has he no faith in John Williams? Does he think John doesn't know what he's doing? The man scored big A list movies for decades, and when he spends PRECIOUS time on writing original music for the scenes mentioned, he surely knows why.

I just hope that the original music for this (rather crucial) scene won't be lost forever. If it's merely an alternative recording from PM cut together to fit the action, then there's a chance we'll get the original cue on a future expanded release.

If not, if it IS a re- recording (and hopefully newly orchestrated), then I'm afraid we'll never hear the new piece ...

[THEfranz_conrad 0]

Jeff Bond speaks with a wink in his eye:

I was pleased that most of the better cues of Williams' score survive intact in the film and are allowed to play through and contribute to some important sequences. However there's still PLENTY of tracking from the previous two prequels and the mix of the music is still pretty weak. I didn't stay through all the credits but I understand they retracked some other material from the score in instead of the Throne Room material on the album, to which I say hooray. So enjoy, Trekkies!

PLENTY OF TRACKING?!?!?!?

http://www.filmscoremonthly.com/board/post...27091&forumID=1

[gkgyver 1,645]

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[King Mark 3,631]

Well,were starting to get real answers.

K.M.Wondering why he's not invited to a special advance screening

[Henry B 50]

Hopefully the tracked music replaces album cues. If it replaced unreleased music, well, we'll never hear that music!

[King Mark 3,631]

If they tracked DotF they could at least used those kick ass unreleased versions from TPM(like The Great Dual)

K.M.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

"Uh, I don't know if I want to ruin it that much. The usual suspects show up--Duel of the Fates of course, Heroics of R2-D2, the arena March from AOTC and probably a few other odds and ends."

HEy, at least the Arena march is now heard in ONE Star Wars film

[ChrisAfonso 186]

So, KM, Bond's answer to your question should verify that "Anakin's BEtrayal" IS Lament, shouldn't it?

[nightscape94 965]

"Duel of the Fates" is the most immediately recognizable theme from the prequel trilogy to the casual viewer, and it can be construed to have a deep symbolism riding behind it. Why leave it out of the scoring session? I would figure that Williams, and not just Lucas, would want to include it in the film. Maybe Williams scored the final epic battle, going back and forth between BotH and DotF. Maybe it sounds edited because Lucas cut some material out to tighten it up, after it was scored and finalized. Perhaps they had to chop off of few notes here and there...

Tim, guessing like he's never guessed before.

[Eplicon 53]

Since Obi-Wan and Anakin's lightsaber battle is quite a long and intense battle, maybe "Duel of the Fates" appears here and there? It was already paraphrased in AOTC when Anakin goes to rescue his mother, underscoring him in a grey sort of way, slowly hinting that the darkness within him is about emerge.

[King Mark 3,631]

They just showed a clip of the Anakin-Obi duel on The Tonight Show.The music had BotH but it seemed different than the c.d. tracks BotH and Anakin vs. Obi Wan.

K.M.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I cam't imagine it being any more annoying then the Anakin vs. obi-Wan cue that's on the CD.