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*The Official Episode III Film Review Thread*


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Anakin even says it right out in AotC: "It's all Obi-Wan's fault! He's holding me back!".

Their friendship grows between Ep II and III, because Anakin gets more mature, but all these years of struggle have left a mark in him.

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Well I've finally seen it. In fact I'm so fresh out of the theater my butt still hurts. Damn crappy chairs. Anyway, like the first two prequels (which, in context for the few who don't know I enjoy as much as the OT) I feel like I need to see it again before I can really absorb everything, but initial impressions:

The movie:

Pretty much what I was expecting, and I'm very satisfied. Dark, tragic, and emotional. Visually amazing. It was paced really well and went by quickly, although it did slow down a little in the second quarter. I've been saying for years that this would be Ian McDiarmid's movie, and it very much was, but not alone. I really feel like Hayden Christiansen stepped up to the plate here and delivered. There were a few times that he slipped, but overall he was spot on. The Big Duel was very good, but I'm not sure if they topped the Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan/Maul sequence at the end TPM. Seeing the Tantive IV used so much was just plain cool.

Quibbles: Vader's "Nooooooooooo!". Already, rightly, torn apart enough here. But I had no problem with Vader's first step. He just got new legs, it's almost like he had to learn to walk again! Natalie Portman was pretty much as wooden as in the previous two, although the scenes with Anakin were not as awkward as Episode II. But she wasn't the worst, that award goes to Mr. Shaft.

The score:

Wonderful, as you would expect, and it works great in the film. And I'm happy to say that this is the most intact of the three prequel scores in the film. There are some tracked cues and some edits, but nothing on the scale of the first two films. The only piece of tracking that irritated me was Anakin leading the clones into the Jedi Temple. Such a huge moment, tracked? Inexcusable.

My real complaint here is the presentation of the CD. Almost every cue on there has had a portion edited out of it, and at least half of the post-Immolation Scene finale sequence is unreleased.

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Obi-Wan's lines in TESB about Luke being the last hope can be thought of in a couple ways. One, the dialogue was meant ambiguous and that if Luke failed in his gung-ho mission attempt against Vader, all would be lost. Even though Yoda chips in about there being "another," it wouldn't have the impact if Yoda spilled all the beans in detail of their Plan B. The situtation wouldn't have sounded as dire in comparison to what we have now.

Of course, Obi-Wan could be thought as sexist, as some have suggested, probably feeling Leia had no Force potential (Vader never sensed her) and it would be too much of a burden on her, physically and mentally to overcome him.

Lastly, Lucas has consistently revised or toyed around with so many ideas as he went along, concerning the characters, their origins, their relationships, that there are plenty of inconsistencies.

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The Emperor- "Now witness the power of this fully armed and operational battle station!"

Fully armed and operational, but not complete.

Marian - whose video game is fully playable and fun, but not yet finished. :P

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Well I've finally seen it. In fact I'm so fresh out of the theater my butt still hurts. Damn crappy chairs. Anyway, like the first two prequels (which, in context for the few who don't know I enjoy as much as the OT) I feel like I need to see it again before I can really absorb everything, but initial impressions:

Just saw the film as well and I have just returned. Yes....the chairs suck. ROTFLMAO

The movie:

Pretty much what I was expecting, and I'm very satisfied. Dark, tragic, and emotional. Visually amazing. It was paced really well and went by quickly, although it did slow down a little in the second quarter. I've been saying for years that this would be Ian McDiarmid's movie, and it very much was, but not alone. I really feel like Hayden Christiansen stepped up to the plate here and delivered. There were a few times that he slipped, but overall he was spot on. The Big Duel was very good, but I'm not sure if they topped the Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan/Maul sequence at the end TPM. Seeing the Tantive IV used so much was just plain cool.

I would agree just about totally here. A few changes I would make is not praise Ian McDiarmid as much. Yes he was good but there was just too much cackling. Oscar nomination.....next please! If anyone owned the film (Other than the obvious John Williams) was Ewan McGregor. He just seemed better.

Best scene: A close race between final duel and the extermination of the Jedi and the big duel. Overall the big duel wins out because while the Lament scene is good it's simply not done very well. Oh sure it's a montage. Sure it's emotional. But we cut to all these goofy looking planets and watch these goofy looking Jedi get killed. I'd rather see Anakin killing everybody in the Temple, thank you.

Quibbles: Vader's "Nooooooooooo!". Already, rightly, torn apart enough here. But I had no problem with Vader's first step. He just got new legs, it's almost like he had to learn to walk again! Natalie Portman was pretty much as wooden as in the previous two, although the scenes with Anakin were not as awkward as Episode II. But she wasn't the worst, that award goes to Mr. Shaft.

Vader's "No" I didn't really cringe a whole lot. Although it was a strange choice..... Portman wasn't very good. Shaftman was a little better.

The only piece of tracking that irritated me was Anakin leading the clones into the Jedi Temple. Such a huge moment, tracked? Inexcusable.

ABSOULUTLY!!! Holy crap that pissed me off. I figured that would be the epitame of the entire score but they just tracked in music from AOTC? That's just not right.

Overall, I enjoyed it far more than AOTC. Which is good. It served it's purpose by wrapping up the prequels. However, in terms of it being miles better than AOTC or TPM it definatly is not. Lucas takes a stirring emotional concept and executes it rather clumsily. Still, maybe it will grow more on me. The other two have not.

Justin

P.S. Was it just me or did the opening crawl seem like it was written by a two year old. Allow me to paraphrase....

War! The clone wars are raging everywhere. Count Dooko is leading the seperatists in capturing the Chacellor. People are being killed. Blasters are being fired.

General Grievous who has been included for some reason is taking the chancellor away for some reason and Obi-Wan and the Jedi Council who already don't trust Palpatine are trying to rescue him for some reason.

Lightsabers's will be turned on. Ships will blow up. Ties to the other films WILL be totally abandonded in ways that they usually are....

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ROTFLMAO

Now these complaints are starting to sound like the sad, pathetic Galaxy Quest fans worried about the ships' blueprints not matching up from episode to episode...

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ROTFLMAO  

Now these complaints are starting to sound like the sad, pathetic Galaxy Quest fans worried about the ships' blueprints not matching up from episode to episode...

Boba Fett a character which the last movie was almost entirly devoted to is completly ignored in the film. Count Dooko who also was THE main villian in the last film is knocked off in the first five minutes. General Grievous and the whole Kashyyyk sequence serves no real storytelling purpose.

I hardly find these things to be insignificant.

Justin - who still enjoyed the film.

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I'm pretty sure Boba Fett only had a few lines in AOTC, far from it being "entirely devoted" to him. And he'd be what, 3 years older in ROTS? If they had included his character again, it would have grabbing at straws - like Chewbacca, he has no part in the ROTS storyline.

As for Count Dooku, he had served his purpose in the overall scheme of things. It's too bad they left out a few of his lines from the novelization though.

Grievous and Kashyyyk are simply tools for the writer to keep Obi-Wan and Yoda away from the Jedi Temple when the massacre occurs. Keep in mind I'm not agreeing with it, only explaining it. It made logical sense in the film.

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Well like Justin and JC, I got back from the movie a few hours ago.

These are my first impressions too, and I will have to see it again, but that is problematic.

After the large number of previews, the 20th Century Fox Fanfare began, and then the Lucasfilm Logo, Star Wars, was I actually getting a chill, a flashback perhaps, nostalgia? Then we pan down to the planet and the space battle, a big pointless utterly boring space battle. Its so big, and so effects filled, that its hard to focus on any part of the screen. Look at me, I'm a spaceship blowing up, no look at me I'm a bigger spaceship on fire.

Hayden Christensen opens his mouth, and I start to think that my low expectations are not low enough. How did I fail to not set them low enough. The beginning was making AOTC actually looked better than it was. For nearly an hour I sat there in stunned disbelief. Afterall I had read some reviews here of people who I have come to trust in their values of film. Not only had Lucas let me down, but so had the MB.

At other MB's I've seen people putting ROTS as the best Star Wars movie, and I am sitting there in the theatre in agony, thinking this movie is awful, and its going nowhere fast.

Then something happens and the movie shifts gear. We get to the emperor's revelation sequence, and the movie suddenly gets better.

Oh the acting by the love birds is enough to make you want to rip your eyes out and plung rusty ice picks in your ears, but Mc Brothers do a good job. Finally Ewen finds his center.

Suffice it to say that the last half of the movie is very good, maybe excellent. Where was Jimmy Smits in the other prequels, he's more interesting than any of the other minor characters. He's sadly underused.

ROTS is better than I though it would be because of the 2nd half, but it could have been even better. Once again the main problems of the prequels is more is less, rather than less is more.

oh back at the start of this I said seeing ROTS again would be problematic, thats because I'd have to sit through the awful first hour again. As good as the 2nd half is, the first half is its mirror opposite.

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If anyone owned the film (Other than the obvious John Williams) was Ewan McGregor. He just seemed better.

I agree to a degree, I was impressed my him a lot. In each movie he's grown more and more into the role of Obi-Wan.

Count Dooko who also was THE main villian in the last film is knocked off in the first five minutes.

Dooku had to get knocked off early in order to open up the Sith apprentice spot for Anakin, but it would have been nice for him to hang around longer.

Grievous and Kashyyyk are simply tools for the writer to keep Obi-Wan and Yoda away from the Jedi Temple when the massacre occurs.

Bingo. "Convienent" plot devices like this can be found in just about every story.

Where was Jimmy Smits in the other prequels, he's more interesting than any of the other minor characters. He's sadly underused.

Smits was really good. His few scenes leave you begging for more, but I understand the decision to keep the story almost 100% focued on the main characters.

John- who will be seeing it again soon.

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My real complaint here is the presentation of the CD. Almost every cue on there has had a portion edited out of it, and at least half of the post-Immolation Scene finale sequence is unreleased.

Yes,I'm steaming mad right now.It's like the climactic part of every cue of the c.d. was snipped out.I can't believe that it's an "accident".Is someone trying to purposely piss of off the actual score fans(the regular casual buyers wouldn't notice)

The last part of Anakin's Dark Deeds is "good" on the c.d.In the film it becomes one of Williams greatest moments...Soem parts of Anakin's Betrayal was cut out too.

K.M.

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Where was Jimmy Smits in the other prequels, he's more interesting than any of the other minor characters. He's sadly underused.
Smits was really good. His few scenes leave you begging for more, but I understand the decision to keep the story almost 100% focued on the main characters.

I fully agree with that. I excepted him immediately, which is something I couldn't say for Samuel L. Jackson.

----------------

Alex Cremers

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I dunno. Would anyone care to take a crack at those plot holes. Because they are pretty damn severe.

Very simple: We know the plot is not waterproof tight. It's not perfect. So what? Why think those holes through endlessly and spoil the fun? What's the point?

The point is those are MAJOR plot holes that when taken in the context of the series make absolutely no sense.

The point is with the prequels Lucas coulgiven some exlanation as to why Luke and Leia were left that way.

I always though that the reason Luke and Leia were left in a non-Jedi environment was due to accident. In other words it was not planned that way, but somehow Luke and Leia became seperated from not only each other but also Yoda and Ben and it was only later that fate stepped in and reunited them.

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My review is almost exactly the same as JoeinAr's. The first hour had many slow parts - and when it was slow, it was sloooooow. Thankfully from the moment Mace Windu has his arms removed the movie picks right up, and was pretty darned good. The "Jedi Slaughter Montage" was highly emotional and nearly had me in tears, as was the birth of the twins (though Leia's theme helped a lot with that). Vader's "Noooooo" was highly amusing and unnecessary, but the final, binary sunset image paralleling Star Wars was quite powerful, if not a little contrived.

I'd love to see it again were it not for the awful first hour.

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The first hour had many slow parts - and when it was slow, it was sloooooow.

Funny, most people find the movie way too fast. What part do you find sloooooow? BTW, is fast better than slow? If I make the fastest movie ever, do I win an Oscar?

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Alex, the first hour was like performing exploritory surgery on one's self. It might have been edited at a Michael Bay pace, but it was all spectacle, and no substance. Basically it was a waste time.

After thinking about this for awhile, I am more convinced than ever how wrong Lucas is, how wrong most of the people here are, how wrong Padme was, and how wrong Luke was.

Anakin slaughtered hundreds and thousands personally, but worst of all he slaughtered a room full of children.

Then he nearly killed his pregnant wife.

This movie clearly makes Return of the Jedi a worse film, because after explicitly showing the dastardly deeds that Darth Vader did, there absolutely can not be any redemption for this monster. To casually allow him back into the graces of the living force at the end of ROTJ is an insult to any human being with an ounce of integrity. For him to stand beside Obi-Wan and Yoda who were morally sound individuals is insulting to them. Not to mention the huge gaffe that he's there in the first place, as he never learned that aspect of the force.

I know I've harped on this many times but never has it been more relevant. There are no moral grounds for Vader's redemption. The scale he has created by his own acts are clearly out of balance, and killing the Emperor doesn't even come close to balancing them.

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Alex, the first hour was like performing exploritory surgery on one's self.  It might have been edited at a Michael Bay pace, but it was all spectacle, and no substance.  Basically it was a waste time.

No, it wasn't. And I know why and I guess you don't. But I'm not gonna give it to you ride away. Maybe someone else would like to explain this Joe.

----------------

Alex Cremers

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oh please tell me Mr. Superior, please tell me, paleaseeeeeee.

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I meant Luke Skywalker, wait you're him too ahhhhh.

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One of the things I deplore (remember, I loved the movie) is the very end: Lucas should never have revealed it was not jsut a son, but a son and a daughter (incidentally, how could the doctors or medbots not see she was pregnant with twins? serious goof).

We know from the start of ANH Luke is Anakin's son; discovering the movies in numerical roder, we lose the big "I'm your father" moment, but at least the other big surprise ("You're my sister") would have been preserved.

I'm afraid that's a case of Lucas wanting to please the (so ungrateful) fans by giving them this "cute moment", when he should have held on the fact there was a girl, too; this way, people discovering the movies, starting logicallt with number 1, would have had quite a surprise in 6.

Fans from day one or that grew up with OT tend to quite arrogantly believe the entire story was made for them and is theirs and only theirs, and to consider that "everybody has seen the OT". Well, millions of kids have actually just Star Wars, and millions and millions of people in the future will discover SW, starting with Episode 1.

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I think being introduced to the SW films starting with Episode I is a terrible, terrible way to do it. You lose all the mystery of the 1977 film (whatever you want to call it), which is a big part of the film's appeal - you feel as though this is all part of something much bigger, something unknown and unseen. Knowing everything would really hurt the film. Watching the OT first, and the prequels second makes much more sense; the prequels would be even less fun to watch without the "cool" factor of seeing the beloved OT characters, so people who started with the prequels would be less likely to really get into and enjoy the series.

Ray Barnsbury

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so people who started with the prequels would be less likely to really get into and enjoy the series.  

Ray Barnsbury

Actually, there are people who post at theforce.net message boards who saw prequels as their first star wars movies and were compelled by the characters action and story to see all the episodes. Now they're hooked.

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I think being introduced to the SW films starting with Episode I is a terrible, terrible way to do it.  You lose all the mystery of the 1977 film (whatever you want to call it), which is a big part of the film's appeal - you feel as though this is all part of something much bigger, something unknown and unseen.  Knowing everything would really hurt the film.

This is the wisest post I've seen in a long time.

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I wonder just how close this film flirted with an R rating. The scene where Anakin's face is on fire was rather abrupt, a second or two more and its R city.

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The first Star Wars movie I ever saw was Episode I. I was not very impressed. Then I saw the OT in one go (the SEs). Still, I was not very impressed. I don't think each film had proper time to sink in.

Then I sampled some of the music. That was most certainly quite awesome.

Then I revisited the films and found a lot more than I remembered was there.

Then I got the soundtracks.

Now I'm a Star Wars fan.

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Well like Justin and JC, I got back from the movie a few hours ago.

These are my first impressions too, and I will have to see it again, but that is problematic.

After the large number of previews, the 20th Century Fox Fanfare began, and then the Lucasfilm Logo, Star Wars, was I actually getting a chill, a flashback perhaps, nostalgia?  Then we pan down to the planet and the space battle, a big pointless utterly boring space battle.  Its so big, and so effects filled, that its hard to focus on any part of the screen. Look at me, I'm a spaceship blowing up, no look at me I'm a bigger spaceship on fire.

Hayden Christensen opens his mouth, and I start to think that my low expectations are not low enough.  How did I fail to not set them low enough.  The beginning was making AOTC actually looked better than it was.  For nearly an hour I sat there in stunned disbelief.  Afterall I had read some reviews here of people who I have come to trust in their values of film.  Not only had Lucas let me down, but so had the MB.

At other MB's I've seen people putting ROTS as the best Star Wars movie, and I am sitting there in the theatre in agony, thinking this movie is awful, and its going nowhere fast.

Then something happens and the movie shifts gear.  We get to the emperor's revelation sequence, and the movie suddenly gets better.  

Oh the acting by the love birds is enough to make you want to rip your eyes out and plung rusty ice picks in your ears, but Mc Brothers do a good job.  Finally Ewen finds his center.

Suffice it to say that the last half of the movie is very good, maybe excellent.  Where was Jimmy Smits in the other prequels, he's more interesting than any of the other minor characters.  He's sadly underused.

ROTS is better than I though it would be because of the 2nd half, but it could have been even better.  Once again the main problems of the prequels is more is less, rather than less is more.

oh back at the start of this I said seeing ROTS again would be problematic, thats because I'd have to sit through the awful first hour again.  As good as the 2nd half is, the first half is its mirror opposite.

I agree that the space battle untill Grevious ship crashes is the most uninvolving part of the movie.Maybe it's because so many things jump at you at once.Maybe it's because the music isn't very engaging.I don't know.Still it's nice too look at and in all due respects tops all space battles before it,even RotJ's.It sort of played like a James Bond opening sequence.So at this point I was SLIGHTLY worried about the film,since the space battle was generally a high point,and what was coming next(the love stuff...ect..) was generally viewed as the low point of the film.BUT I did find myself beeing engaged in the film as soon as the talking parts started,so sooner than you did.Like you,I do think it did get really good at the point when Mace goes to arrest Palpatine,but I do think the first hour is worth seeing again.

There are many shots in the film of space ships leaving planets,landing,moving from building to building.Not sure if that gets high marks or low ones.On one hand it adds nothing to the story and slows the pace down,but it does add beautiful scenery and tons of cool unreleased Williams fanfares.

I did feel I was in "outer space" in this film because the locations were so amazing.Not on some earth location made up to look like some other planet(naboo,tatooine,endor)

What's the name of the planets with tanks riding through giant flower plants?That was very alien looking in a "lost in Space" kind of way.I liked that shot.

K.M.

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I think that Lucas wrapped up the prequel trilogy quite well. I enjoyed EP3 for that type of film - less than 50% live action and the rest 3D Animation. I think of it like this, it would be far, far too expensive to photograph those ideas the same way he did the OT.

Then on the other hand, if he wasn't able to get all his ideas in there he would be forced to be more creative and the movies might have more personality. I wish he made the prequel movies more than 10 years ago. I would much rather an elephant dressed up in a Bantha costume on location, have less going on in the frame and see 100's of extras dressed as stormtroopers with studio light reflecting off of their armour. I think the movie will be hard to watch on my 28" widescreen tv - as compared to the OT. I bought the last two prequels on DVD but never have the desire to rewatch them. I am not sure how they will look in 30 years from now because I bet Lucas will re-edit them each time there is an advance in 3D animation software.

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I must admit I was very worried it would still suck despite the positive reviews and comments when I went in the theater.I already had a lot of reservations about the OST album

K.M.

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What's the name of the planets with tanks riding through giant flower plants?That was very alien looking in a "lost in Space" kind of way.I liked that shot.  

me too,

funny, only you and I could have thought that.

its funny I have fewer reservations about the score than most. I am especially fond of Padme's Ruminations after seeing the sequence it encompased. Its not for everyone's tastes, but something about it...

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There are no moral grounds for Vader's redemption.

HAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

........

HAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAAAHHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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you laugh but you cannot list any that will stand up to scrutiny.

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you laugh but you cannot list any that will stand up to scrutiny.

I feel silly having to tell you this but human beings forgive each other and see the good in each other even after doing terrible things. Family does this more often than acquaintances, associates and enemies.

Anakin conveniently died in ROTJ after he was forgiven by his son and broke free from the Emperor's control. Therefore we didn't have to see him go to jail, which he would have. But that doesn't make the forgiveness by his wife and his son any less deserved. There was still good in him.

Even though the courts of the New Republic might have treated him as a criminal and a monster, his family understood that he was once good and that he had been twisted from his true self through tragedy.

Luke helped him return to the good side, and death finally shed the false self that had been twisted by evil.

Ever learn about religion? I'm not a religious guy, but most religions acknowledge this, as does our judicial system.

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Vader murdered children there is no redemption for the murderer of children.

Because Lucas wrote it that Vader found redemption reads completely untrue and hollow.

I am a religious person, but there are things beyond forgiveness, and the murder of children is one of them, and had Luke and Padme seen the film as Ob1 had they wouldn't have none either.

As you point out families do thing that others don't, its because they are blinded by the bonds of family, that prevent them from seeing right or wrong.

Padme was good but naive, she believed there was good in him even after he tried to kill her, and her children.

Luke was good but naive, he believed there was good in him even after the point where he wanted to turn his sister to the dark side. They were idiots.

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My real complaint here is the presentation of the CD. Almost every cue on there has had a portion edited out of it, and at least half of the post-Immolation Scene finale sequence is unreleased.

The last part of Anakin's Dark Deeds is "good" on the c.d.In the film it becomes one of Williams greatest moments...Soem parts of Anakin's Betrayal was cut out too.

K.M.

I didn't hear the score before I went into the film, and I was stunned by Anakin's Dark Deeds - that repeating motif when Obi-Wan is telling Padme what Anakin has done, and it keeps repeating and building as it cuts to Anakin on Mustafar - WOW. That sequence is magnificently scored and, IMO, Williams' best work in the last three SW films.

I've now seen it 3 times. I like Battle of the Heroes more every time I hear it, but I just had to comment on how amazed I was by "Anakin's Dark Deeds." I bet if I'd heard it first by itself, I wouldn't have been as impressed - but when you put it together with the actions on the screen, it's really powerful.

:| "Anakin's Dark Deeds"

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I don't buy Anakins turn to evil, it happens too fast and there is no clear motivation for his actions. I can understand Anakin doing whatever he can do to save Padme. I can understand Anakin taking on the mission to wipe out the Seperatist leaders (it's merciless and not Jedi-like, but they were the enemy). I cannot understand how he so quickly decides to slaughter a roomful of children. Wasn't it just a few minutes before that he tells Obi-Wan what a good teacher he's been and reports Palpatines identity to Mace Windu.

I really need to see it again, but it still doesn't sit well with me. It just seems that Anakin only turns to the dark side because there's only half a movie left until Episode 4.

There is just too much story packed into this Episode. Episodes I and II meandered on about assassination attempts on Padme, podracing, politics. We don't learn enough about the Jedi (the prequels never talk about the Force, lightsabers etc.) or the Sith (they want revenge and there's only two, that's all we get from the prequels).

Now that all three prequels are finished, all I see in them are these missed opportunities.

Why couldn't Episode I start the Clone Wars? Why couldn't Anakin be an adult and fall in love with Padme in Episode I? Why couldn't Episode II open with the attempt to kidnap Palpatine? Why couldn't Anakin begin working directly for Palpatine in Episode II?

Here's a neat idea: Why not have the Count Dooku character be the Sith Master planning to overthrow the republic by forming the Seperatists and with the help of Palpatine, who is the Sith Apprentice working his way to the top of the Galactic Senate. When Anakin comes along, Palpatine then sees his chance at defeating Dooku and taking over the galaxy himself. That would have been much more interesting, given the trilogy a strong villain character, and be a good way to learn more about the Sith and the dark side.

Alec Guiness describes Anakin as having been seduced by the dark side. I don't see that happening in the prequels, he just did it for a chick. It seems as though Anakin just made a quick decision to help out his girl, who was never at any time in any real danger anyway. And for this, he spends the rest of the life doing Palpatines evil deeds??

I was also disappointed and bored with Greivous, he was a waste of screen time.

The opening space battle was anything but. Watching Anakin scrape buzz droids off of Obi-Wan's ship was rather boring. I really loved the looong opening shot, with the Force theme playing as we follow the two Jedi starfighters. After that, it was just nonsense. Why not just have Anakin and Obi-Wan in space shooting enemy ships and having a good time of it?

Jeff

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49 hours, and I'll be reading te whole thread with total freedom, and will be eager to review and argue everything.

49 hours....

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I am especially fond of Padme's Ruminations after seeing the sequence it encompased.  Its not for everyone's tastes, but something about it...

Me too. If anyone call pull off Moaning Woman it's certainly Williams, and that was a great scene too, with Anakin and Padme both doing some cud chewing. Take that how you will.

And on earlier points, I thought the "flying in space" portion of the opening battle was visually impressive but surprisingly so-so overall. But from when they get onto Greivous' ship until the crash was a ton of fun and very enjoyable IMO.

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Vader murdered children there is no redemption for the murderer of children.

Because Lucas wrote it that Vader found redemption reads completely untrue and hollow.

I am a religious person, but there are things beyond forgiveness, and the murder of children is one of them, and had Luke and Padme seen the film as Ob1 had they wouldn't have none either.

As you point out families do thing that others don't, its because they are blinded by the bonds of family, that prevent them from seeing right or wrong.

Padme was good but naive, she believed there was good in him even after he tried to kill her, and her children.

Luke was good but naive, he believed there was good in him even after the point where he wanted to turn his sister to the dark side.  They were idiots.

I think that Vader being redeemed isn't a bad thing. But it seems like the whole saga changes gears after ESB. I wouldn't mind seeing it either way as long as the films are consistant.

Justin

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yeah thanks Jeff I've wanted to read that, can't say I disagree much.

Your a good writer by the way.

Joe.

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