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Changes in Williams.


HPFAN_2

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The title refers to Williams and his composing styles through different decades. I haven't been following Williams as long as some people here, so i wasn't there for the release of E.T. and CEOTK. But when i listen to those scores and compare them to his score today i can see a big difference, just in feel and style. For instance Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone to me is typical Williams (not that there is anything wrong with that) but POA IMHO is a departure from say things like E.T. or Hook, it's a style to its self. Another example, the Star Wars of the stone ages ( 70s 80s, yes stone ages, anyone who wasn't born then is OLD!) sounds different from Star Wars of today. So the question is how has Williams changed, what has brought on that change and if you think he has changed at all?

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To me, Harry Potter isn't typical Williams, it's Williams trying to imitate typical Williams - or at least his typical childlike-sound. Luckily it was a relatively successful score in that respect... well moreso in that it had some Williams trademarks but created its own recognisable soundworld for the time being, but unfortunately is now heard in most of his post-2001 scores. I thought Azkaban was a major departure from that soundworld, and sounded closer to Home Alone or something back in the heyday (not ET or Hook though), but Sith is honestly a brew of an endless list of styles from his back catalogue (Schindler's, Angela's, Potter, Star Wars, Inferno, Home Alone, Azkaban, etc), because he decided to score different scenes with much different and therefore inconsistent approaches. But the sound in general ever since Jurassic Park has never been close to the through-composed thematic genius of his 1975-83 Golden Era. Where every moment counts. I think he's lost his sense of melody, I'm afraid. Everything these days seems a bit too cerebral in comparison. Apart from Hedwig's Theme and maybe Double Trouble, I don't think he's written anything since 1993 with ANY sort of melodic finesse. But even those two I just mentioned were because of the popularity and ubiquity of the films, both melodies are still highly mechanical and not amazing or original or outstandingly composed. Things like Parade of the Slave Children, the Force Theme, Darth Vader's Theme, they all have incredibly moving shapes and contours, and are as melodically driven as they are rhythmic. Now, themes like Duel of the Fates and Double Trouble are just repeated patterns, or combinations of two or three "separated" patterns if you will, not evolving from within themselves. Hedwig's Theme, Across the Stars and A Window to the Past are notable exceptions, but are still highly repetitive structure-wise. Darth Vader's Theme nearly suffers from this, but he plays on the leaps and steps creating this sense of unpredictable evil. The dum-da daaa dum-da daaa is a cute mini-refrain within the theme. It's not like the theme goes ||: dum-da da, dum-da da, dum-da dada dum-da daaaa :sigh:|

Back in the day, his music heightened the popularity of the film in question. Nowadays it's the total opposite, if anything. Sorry, lots of poorly developed, meaningless rambling.

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Apart from Hedwig's Theme and maybe Double Trouble, I don't think he's written anything since 1993 with ANY sort of melodic finesse.

The Tale of Viktor Navorski?

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Back in the day, his music heightened the popularity of the film in question. Nowadays it's the total opposite, if anything. Sorry, lots of poorly developed, meaningless rambling.

If that was the case why are you still buying his c.d's

K.M.Who thinks that statement is more true for later days Goldsmith than Williams

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People are just to attached to the sound they grow up with. I did grow up with the Williams of the 70's and 80's, but if you ask me, the Williams of today, more cerebral or not, is even better. I'll agree that his music is not so melodic, or melody oriented, but much more motivic driven, and much more close to his own concert works. And he keeps bringing what I think to be the best film music being composed today, simply because he is a great composer -- of film or otherwise.

Personally I find that this kind of discussion is pointless -- we've been here before -- and it ends up to a question of taste. Some people are able toe embrace all kinds of music, as far as it is good music, while others may have a harder time doing that. It ahppened to me too... there was stuff i just didn't understood years ago, and that I do now, and love to listen to. I guess is somewhat a question of amturity too, but mostly of taste... and as they say around here, tates are not subject for discussion.

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It's been pointed out to me that the change in Williams's sound may have something to do with the death of orchestrator Herbert W. Spencer. That makes a lot of sense to me. Scores such as Hook and Jurassic Park, which have never clicked with me, were not orchestrated by him, yet look at all of the films he did orchestrate for Williams that I love. This seems to me like it could be a big reason why I prefer earlier Williams.

Neil

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It's been pointed out to me that the change in Williams's sound may have something to do with the death of orchestrator Herbert W. Spencer.  That makes a lot of sense to me.  Scores such as Hook and Jurassic Park, which have never clicked with me, were not orchestrated by him, yet look at all of the films he did orchestrate for Williams that I love.  This seems to me like it could be a big reason why I prefer earlier Williams.

Neil

Spencer died in 1992, and up untill 1990 he got all the credit for orchestrating -- which he didn't. Since the late 80's when he was diagnosed with cancer, Williams begun to use other orchestrators, so I don't find that to be a real reason -- though it might have helped. We all know that Williams do all his orchestration. Spencer and others only "check the spellling" and copy the sketches to the larger score sheet.

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... there was stuff i just didn't understood years ago, and that I do now, and love to listen to. I guess is somewhat a question of amturity too, but mostly of taste... and as they say around here, tates are not subject for discussion.

That's a very good point. Some people have a hard time with change. Like you, there is much more that I listen to now and appreciate and understand better than just a few years ago. Granted, I pine for the Williams of old, but I can still appreciate what he is pumping out today.

Growing as a listener has been an exciting thing for me and has opened up new areas of musical enjoyment.

I still don't like Rap though. :sigh:

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It would be interesting to hear JW address this because I don’t know if I’ve ever heard him talk about his evolution stylistically as a composer and yet its a very relevant question. I tend to think that sometimes what gets perceieved as a stylistic shift, can at least be partly explained by the evolution of movies. For example, action music from Empire Strikes Back to Return of the Jedi changes quite a bit and becomes more hectic but I think that’s at least partly due to the more hurried pacing and the busier visuals. And that kind of thing carries forward to a lot of his more recent action movies. Its not the only reason his action music has changed but its a factor I think.

Then, of course when people talk about his more mature style it seems to me a lot of that is JW choosing to score more mature movies, in the 1990s for example. So there would be something wrong if that didn’t sound very different stylistically than the most of the stuff he scored from earlier. But there’s also obviously something in his compositional technique that evolves over time as I suppose it does for everybody if they keep trying to get better. I’ve heard others speak about that better than I can.

I think there can be an attachment to the era like Miguel said but also to the movies themselves. Part of me thinks that if you reversed the movies and had him score his 90s films in 1975-1985 and score his 1975-1985 films in 1990s, many would regard his golden age as the 1990s. Its hard to know, but the earlier era happened to be a period when he scored many well-done, action/sci-fi films where music had to play a very big role. If you wanted to come up with a dreamlist of films for a film composer to build up a fanbase, you could do well to use those films.

- Adam

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I read a review of The Phantom Menace that calls his work, "more mature. Not better, just more mature." That about sums it up, I think...

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Back in the day, his music heightened the popularity of the film in question. Nowadays it's the total opposite, if anything. Sorry, lots of poorly developed, meaningless rambling.

If that was the case why are you still buying his c.d's

K.M.Who thinks that statement is more true for later days Goldsmith than Williams

LOL I meant sorry for the poorly structured and rambling reply to the topic. Just venting.

As for buying CDs - the music is still better than anything else by any other composer (within reason), but I've found I'm more relying on the imagery of the film to make the music come alive. I have not needed to see ANY of his Golden Era film scores to thoroughly enjoy them, but of course seeing the images is the icing on the cake...

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My take: Star Wars action music was better in RotS but sucked in the other prequels. Spare Duel of the Fates. I like themefilled action music. Other wise... it's unnoticable and not fun. Look at all the great stuff that we've been given by him in the last few years... He's come up with some music that, IMO, was just as good as the 70's, 80's, and early 90's. And look at all those films. Those were great, fun films. But when one looks at Minority Report or A.I. or even the new Star Wars... There's not a LOT of stuff that inspires me in them.. So I can see why John isn't so idk into it. ANYWAY. I think that in the 70s 80s and 90s... he had more fun less almost ridiculously boring (in their own way) films to work with. I think it's the enjoyability of the movies John scores that depend on his writing. Idk. just rambling.

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The action music in Phantom Menace is thematically driven. Most of the major battle cues have a theme woven throughout them... Attack of the Clones' action music is based mostly on percussive rhythms, not melodies. Revenge of the Sith, sans "General Grievous," is based on neither, making it weak in the action department.

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Another example, the Star Wars of the stone ages ( 70s 80s, yes stone ages, anyone who wasn't born then is OLD!) sounds different from Star Wars of today.

hey kid you do understand don't you that if you don't age then you DIE or you are DEAD.

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I wouldn't have it any other way. If Williams' style hadn't changed, everyone would be saying he's pumping out the same old stuff.

No matter what, Williams in the 70s-80s would be seen as his prime. He was a breath of fresh air in a day when orchestral music was dying. Now with all these Williams-wannabes, his own style has been done to death, so he's moving elsewhere. I reckon that Philosopher's Stone was the last score he wrote in that definitive style and PoA was a step in a completely new direction, and he's continued with it somewhat in RotS (from what I've heard).

That's just what I think.

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I wouldn't say PoA is in a completely different direction.The Bridge to the Past and Double Trouble themes are very "classic " Williams.I think a lot of the underscore is also classic Williams,but is derived more from his darker material from the 70's and 80's,like CE3K and the dark parts of ToD.But it's not in his "E.T.,Spacecamp,Hook" mode if that's what you mean by typical Williams.

K.M.

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why do you put E.T. in the same vein as Spacecamp, and Hook, two clearly inferior, and totally different types of scores than E.T.

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Perception has changed more than the music I think.

Factors in changing human perception on Williams' music:

1) Orchestral Film Music is nothing too special anymore: When Jaws and Star Wars were released, symphonic scoring made a return. Now, it has been "back" since the late 70's. With all this orchestra music constantly heard on TV and Movies, it takes something incessantly repeated in the film, trailers and Coke commercials, like Hedwig's Theme, for it to be remembered by the general public.

2) The past gets condensed:

The longer the time has passed, the more music is forgotten. The general public, and most Williams fans here, discard Monsignor, Dracula, Heartbeeps, Missouri Breaks, etc. when they compare his "golden age" scores to his present scores. Now, his less memorable scores are compared to his most memorable scores of the past. Although time will tell how memorable some of his current scores will be. His less memorable scores of present should be compared with his less memorable scores of past.

3) The Movies have less impact on older viewers:

As people get older, they get less and less "wowed" by new movies. Part of the reason Williams music was so important to many of us in the beginning is because it was our introduction to the style, and as children, we were able to feel the magic much more easily. This was especially true when the market in the 70s and 80s were not saturated with adventure films with ambitious special effects. The kids of the 70's and early 80's were truly spoiled, because we were there when the style of fantastic films came into maturity. There was nothing else like it. The music was a big part of that overall experience. There is nothing so monumental for Williams' music to affix to now, but this does not make the music any lesser from this composer's POV.

4) Themes versus Underscore:

Most of Williams' "fans" are drawn to his themes rather than his underscore. Many people judge music based on the number of memorable themes contained therein, while many others (like myself) are dazzled by non-thematic underscore. Interestingly, 90 percent of Williams' output in Williams' "golden era" was non-thematic underscore. Because time has helped us remember it better, and the scenes it accompanied were more monumental in film history, we tend to remember the non-thematic underscore of the golden age more than fresh underscore, which takes time to sink in.

His style has changed a little, but not as much as some say.

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I think it also really depends on what "TYPE" of music you like...BOOMBASICAAAAAAAA, williams has not been lately, he's drawn more to the underscore as my good friend.Jeshopk has refered too. Personally, Yes I'd be lying if I said Williams has lost a little bloom in his rose, but Williams is also very booked for his age and frankly is getting older. His HP score is beautiful and I think it has some very nice Thematic moments, and some wonderful Underscore. At the same time, I am not a fan of his latest work, ROTS. I think there is alot of catalog music with inconsistent Texture around his old themes. I also think this has to do with how booked he is. I know alot of people are looking forward to all his scores comming out. But I seriously quetion even a 45 year old composer in his prime, doing all these scores well. I think age, and being over-booked and not to mention the man has written a baziiiilioooon scores in in life equate to him not being able to produced anything like the so called "GOLDEN AGE" of Williams music. Give the guy a break, he's given so much already. I know we all want to be moved again by an amazing Williams score, but if it does not happend and he dies the way Goldsmith did, I'm fine with that. I cherish what he has given me already. A career, a life and a hobby. Thanks J DOG for all you have done :nono:

KrossTJ-Who thinks if WIlliams Composed G,Bb,D,F in every song it will still rule LOL :)

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"more mature. Not better, just more mature."

My sentiments exactly.

I once made a mix composed solely of the Maestro's post-Schindler (and hence, post-sabbatical) works because for a while now, I've consciously felt something changed after Schindler (or maybe because of it?)--maybe in him or in the way he wrote music. His themes tended to be less immediately recognizable (not a bad thing) and it would take me several listens before I found myself unconsciously humming them.

Then the way he would score scenes (namely action ones) went from varying and permutating those themes in a prominently stated piece (best example coming to mind: "The Land Race" from Far & Away) to a more supportive, leitmotif-less work (like "Anderton's Great Escape" from Minority Report).

I remember when those first "new" Williams scores came out, I didn't dig 'em. I wanted more Superman and Indiana Jones not Sleepers or Saving Private Ryan. But maybe because I've grown older (and hopefully, more mature) I've not only found myself appreciating their fullness, but preferring them over the "blockbuster" Williams.

I am finding the Williams of this age eminently enjoyable.

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