Schindler's List and Mahler Symph. no. 9

[MSM 126]

Has it been said before, that the almost entire Schindler's List Theme + violin solo is in Mahler's Symphony 9?

[Sandor 796]

Hahaha! There are SOME similarities, but you make it sound like the pieces are almost identical and quite frankly; they're NOT.

[publicist 4,643]

The first 8 notes are similar...and if that's bothering you, you would be surprised if you listen to Williams 80ies scherzo writing and Prokoviev's 5th Symphony back to back.

But it's a tired topic which has a beard thaaaaaaaaaaat long.

[MSM 126]

The first 8 notes are similar...and if that's bothering you, you would be surprised if you listen to Williams 80ies scherzo writing and Prokoviev's 5th Symphony back to back.

But it's a tired topic which has a beard thaaaaaaaaaaat long.

It's why I love Prokofiev's 5th symphony so much

Yeah I know but they keep coming

[MSM 126]

Hahaha! There are SOME similarities, but you make it sound like the pieces are almost identical and quite frankly; they're NOT.

No not exactly the same, but the atmosphere is the same, there's just too much notes identical, not just a case of "this happens in tonal music", the melodic idea is the same. And then the solo violin, I can clearly see this is where JW's inspiration comes from.

[pat_burke 0]

"Love of Three Oranges" & "Parade of the Ewoks"? Similar but different.

[Hitch 57]

Hhhhhmmmmmm......Orange.

Show your true colors, Steef!

[Lurker 5]

Neil

[Hitch 57]

Not what I had in mind!

[David Coscina 3]

not the 9th. The 8th. Have you even heard Mahler's 9th Symphony????

And no, i bears a superficial resemblance. For a true lift, check out James Horner's Enemy at the Gates. THAT has a direct lift from Mahler's 8th.

[MSM 126]

not the 9th.  The 8th.  Have you even heard Mahler's 9th Symphony????

And no, i bears a superficial resemblance.  For a true lift, check out James Horner's Enemy at the Gates.  THAT has a direct lift from Mahler's 8th.

Yeah I mean the 8th I know it has a superficial resemblence, but it just makes me think JW didn't invent the SL theme all by himself.

I thought Enemy at the Gates was a direct lift from Schindler's List.

[King Mark 3,625]

I don't really like threads that point out Williams alledged plagiarism

K.M.Who thinks even if Williams copied a few classical piece,they sound better than the original anyways

[King Mark 3,625]

Speaking of Williams inspiration,anyone thinks Battle of the Heroes sounds like the big chorus in The Brooding in The Final Conflict(Goldsmith)?

K.M.

[MSM 126]

K.M.Who thinks even if Williams copied a few classical piece,they sound better than the original anyways

But I absolutely agree with that!

I just think it is interesting to get to know as much aspects of Williams creating process as is possible. Just to see where the man gets his inspiration gets from is fascinating, and that is why most of those threads keep coming up. It has nothing to do with allegation or anything!

[publicist 4,643]

Who thinks even if Williams copied a few classical piece,they sound better than the original anyways

Well, of course they do, they are simpler condensations, so they're easier on the ear.

[MSM 126]

Who thinks even if Williams copied a few classical piece,they sound better than the original anyways

Well, of course they do, they are simpler condensations, so they're easier on the ear.

No really they are better structured mostly, more balanced in orchestration and sound and emotionally stronger.

[publicist 4,643]

No really they are better structured mostly, more balanced in orchestration and sound and emotionally stronger.

On JWFan perhaps, try rec.arts.prokoviev for a change.

[King Mark 3,625]

It's one of those classicalist elitists websites.

K.M.Who thinks JW is the best no matter what classicalists say

[nightscape94 965]

What part of the 9th are you referring to? (Please cite Movement and approximate time)

Tim

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Ah, it's always fun to see the Williams-philes with their hands over their ears refusing to hear that the maestro may have been influenced by the great composers. Mahler? Wagner? Stravinsky? Strauss? Who are these losers??? Could THEY have written Lapti Nek? I think not...

[pixie_twinkle 48]

It's one of those classicalist elitists websites.

Classical "elitism" covers almost 1000 years of music. Film-score elitism is much more introverted and anal by comparison. :roll:

[orrakul 0]

I don't really like threads that point out Williams alledged plagiarism

Me neither. Yes, John Williams heard Mahler's other symphonies before, and yes, there might be a similarity. But, plagiarism? I don't think so.

Hasn't JW done enough to prove his talent already?!

[orrakul 0]

Ah, it's always fun to see the Williams-philes with their hands over their ears refusing to hear that the maestro may have been influenced by the great composers. Mahler? Wagner? Stravinsky? Strauss? Who are these losers??? Could THEY have written Lapti Nek? I think not...

I don't think that it's a refsual to think ill of JW, or bury one's head in the sand. It's a refusal to acknowledge plagiarism (which is an inherently dishonest act). JW has (no doubt) been influenced by many great composers (contemporary, baroque, neo-classical etc.). I expect artists to be influenced by each other (I suspect that much of this happens on a subconscious level) - JW is human after all. But I don't believe that JW is intentionally stealing other people's themes and melodies and trying to pass it off as his own work.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I don't think anyone in this thread has said he did here.

[MAG-SI 10]

The resemblance is imo intentional. Subject in SL is holocaust. Music was controlled by the Nazis. Music by Gustav Mahler (and many others) was banned as they were Jew or writing atonal. Jazz was also banned. Nazis destroyed as many recordings as they can of his music.

Therefor I see it like a tribute (or homage) to Mahler - executed in perfection!

[chinaismine 64]

What part of the 9th are you referring to? (Please cite Movement and approximate time)

Tim

Anyone?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Ah, it's always fun to see the Williams-philes with their hands over their ears refusing to hear that the maestro may have been influenced by the great composers. Mahler? Wagner? Stravinsky? Strauss? Who are these losers??? Could THEY have written Lapti Nek? I think not...

I don't think that it's a refsual to think ill of JW, or bury one's head in the sand. It's a refusal to acknowledge plagiarism (which is an inherently dishonest act). JW has (no doubt) been influenced by many great composers (contemporary, baroque, neo-classical etc.). I expect artists to be influenced by each other (I suspect that much of this happens on a subconscious level) - JW is human after all. But I don't believe that JW is intentionally stealing other people's themes and melodies and trying to pass it off as his own work.

I agree that plagiarism is not the right word here. Certainly Williams often writes music that is strikingly similar to works of the great masters, whether intentionally or not. In the case of Superman Love Theme vs. Strauss' Death and Transfiguration I think that Williams may have been subconsciously influenced by the Strauss. In the case of ET Adventure on Earth vs. Hanson's Romantic Symphony there are just too many similarities for it to be unintentional, however I think of it as a very well executed homage, not plagiarism.

Something to consider: Often directors use temp-tracks from classical repertoire while cutting their film, then give the track to the composer to indicate what kind of music they want at a certain point. In Schindler's List Spielberg had been using Kilar's Exodus (which actually ended up in the Schindler's List preview). If you listen to Exodus and then the Williams piece Schindler's Workforce there are striking similarities in style, pacing, tempo, and overall design. I'm guessing Spielberg actually wanted Williams to ape the Kilar piece at that point, and Williams did a great job creating a new piece while paying homage to Kilar's masterpiece.

I love Williams' music, always have and always will. I believe he is truly one of the great composers of the 20th century, and has earned his place in the history books. He has written some of my favourite pieces of music. However, my feathers get a little ruffled whenever it is suggested that Williams NEVER steals from other composers occasionally. Of course he does! And you know what? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that in moderation. I recently had the pleasure of meeting composer George Crumb, who told me "Don't borrow, steal!" meaning make use of everything that's out there, just make sure by the time you're done with it it sounds more like you than the original! Most of the time Williams succeeds.

[orrakul 0]

I agree with everything that you said in the previous post. I also never considered what Mag-Si said that sometimes the resemblance is intentional. I'm just bugged by people who don't remember that composing is a very subjective thing. I think certain themes/melodies stick in peoples' minds, and they get used... Film composers don't have long to write a score; unlike James Horner who seems to "recycle" large portions of previous scores, John Williams seems to start from scratch (I am not a composer, so I am no expert on this - this has just been my observation). I think that we should cut JW some slack.

[nightscape94 965]

What part of the 9th are you referring to? (Please cite Movement and approximate time)

Tim

Anyone?

ANYONE!!!!

Tim

[MSM 126]

Yes sorry for the late reply. It's the 8th Symphony, in the middle of the 2nd movement.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Ok, contrary to the implications of my previous post I would just like to point out that I'd rather listen to almost anything by Williams than Mahler's 8th. I LOVE Mahler, but the 8th is just so mind-numbingly overblown that it simply leaves me cold. Now the 3rd...

[mahler3 478]

Ok, contrary to the implications of my previous post I would just like to point out that I'd rather listen to almost anything by Williams than Mahler's 8th. I LOVE Mahler, but the 8th is just so mind-numbingly overblown that it simply leaves me cold. Now the 3rd...

I trust you were going to say that the 3rd is wonderful!?

To state that the 8th symphony is mind-numbingly overblown is a rather sweeping comment don't you think? Admittedly the orchestra and chorus is bigger than ever (hence the nickname Symphony of a Thousand) but it's premise and structure is genius! Act 1's 25 minute opening is a perfect example of scoring for large orchestra and choir, it certainly surpasses Wagner in my opinion. Act 2's Faust has some beautifully tender moments throughout and really only begins to employ the full orchestra and choir during the final 15 minutes of its glorious conclusion.

I urge you to give No.8 another chance. Back on topic, yes I noticed the similarity with Schindler's List but don't believe it was intentional.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I trust you were going to say that the 3rd is wonderful!?  

Of course! I wouldn't dream of saying anything otherwise to someone with mahler3 as their name! I think Mahler's 3rd is one of the greatest symphonies of all time. Have you heard the Benjamin Zander recording? It's my favourite, and employs the biggest orchestra of any Mahler 3 recording I've heard. The cymbal crash in the first movement uses 4 sets of cymbals as suggested in the score. When I heard the Cleveland Orchestra play this piece in Severance Hall last year I was disappointed that they only used one pair of cymbals. Plus Zander uses a real post horn on his recording. If you've never heard his recording I STRONGLY urge you to check it out.

As for Mahler 8, well I certainly haven't heard it in a long time so maybe I should give it another chance. I just found the whole thing a little too unrelenting in its grandiosity, and found it left me rather cold. I find Mahler to be a very personal composer (I love the 4th and 9th for this very reason) and I found the 8th to be quite the opposite. Mahler's personality seemed to be hidden behind all the bluster and bombast. Having said that it may be in part due to the poor performance I have of this piece. I have a Bernstein recording with the Wiener Phil. which claims to be an "historic recording from the Salzburger Festspiele in 1975". It sounds like it was recorded late in the festival as the soloists (Margaret Price, Judith Blegen, Gerti Zeumer, Trudeliese Schmidt, Agnes Baltsa, Kenneth Riegel, Hermann Prey, and Jose van Dam) seem to miss as many notes as they hit, and everyone sounds tired and shagged-out (after a long squalk). Even the Wiener Phil manages to sound well below it's usual standard. I often feel these live performances work better in the concert hall than on CD. Can you recommend a good recording of the 8th? Preferably not live, historic, or squalky! Thanks.

[mahler3 478]

I trust you were going to say that the 3rd is wonderful!?  

Of course! I wouldn't dream of saying anything otherwise to someone with mahler3 as their name! I think Mahler's 3rd is one of the greatest symphonies of all time. Have you heard the Benjamin Zander recording? It's my favourite, and employs the biggest orchestra of any Mahler 3 recording I've heard. The cymbal crash in the first movement uses 4 sets of cymbals as suggested in the score. When I heard the Cleveland Orchestra play this piece in Severance Hall last year I was disappointed that they only used one pair of cymbals. Plus Zander uses a real post horn on his recording. If you've never heard his recording I STRONGLY urge you to check it out.

As for Mahler 8, well I certainly haven't heard it in a long time so maybe I should give it another chance. I just found the whole thing a little too unrelenting in its grandiosity, and found it left me rather cold. I find Mahler to be a very personal composer (I love the 4th and 9th for this very reason) and I found the 8th to be quite the opposite. Mahler's personality seemed to be hidden behind all the bluster and bombast. Having said that it may be in part due to the poor performance I have of this piece. I have a Bernstein recording with the Wiener Phil. which claims to be an "historic recording from the Salzburger Festspiele in 1975". It sounds like it was recorded late in the festival as the soloists (Margaret Price, Judith Blegen, Gerti Zeumer, Trudeliese Schmidt, Agnes Baltsa, Kenneth Riegel, Hermann Prey, and Jose van Dam) seem to miss as many notes as they hit, and everyone sounds tired and shagged-out (after a long squalk). Even the Wiener Phil manages to sound well below it's usual standard. I often feel these live performances work better in the concert hall than on CD. Can you recommend a good recording of the 8th? Preferably not live, historic, or squalky! Thanks.

I know the recording you refer to and it is indeed poor, I think this may be the reason for your lack of enthusiasm for the piece. There are two superior performances on very reasonably priced CD's as follows:

London Symphony & Chorus etc. cond by Bernstein on Sony Classical:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...nce&s=classical

and Decca's Sir Georg Solti recording with the Chicago Symphony et al:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...nce&s=classical

The latter stated are definitely worth hunting down and feature superb sound engineering that should make all the difference for you. Many thanks for your tip re Zander's 3rd, Jeff also raves about it so I will certainly be chasing it down.

[H2OProof 2]

Speaking of Zander...you can download his entire recording with the The New England Conservatory

Youth Philharmonic Orchestra of Mahler's Symphony No. 5 at his website.

http://www.benjaminzander.com/recordings/nec.asp

Abbado's recording with the Berlin Philharmonic of Mahler's Symphony No. 8 is another outstanding performance and recording.

[Morn 8]

I thought it was the 8th that had the Schindler's List like bit, I don't hear it in the 9th but do in the 8th.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

That was corrected earlier in this thread.

[Morn 8]

Right, well it's only the first few notes of a very long melody.

[MSM 126]

Right, well it's only the first few notes of a very long melody.

...but the atmosphere is the same, there's just too much notes identical, not just a case of "this happens in tonal music", the melodic idea is the same. And then the solo violin, I can clearly see this is where JW's inspiration comes from.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I trust you were going to say that the 3rd is wonderful!?  

Of course! I wouldn't dream of saying anything otherwise to someone with mahler3 as their name! I think Mahler's 3rd is one of the greatest symphonies of all time. Have you heard the Benjamin Zander recording? It's my favourite, and employs the biggest orchestra of any Mahler 3 recording I've heard. The cymbal crash in the first movement uses 4 sets of cymbals as suggested in the score. When I heard the Cleveland Orchestra play this piece in Severance Hall last year I was disappointed that they only used one pair of cymbals. Plus Zander uses a real post horn on his recording. If you've never heard his recording I STRONGLY urge you to check it out.

As for Mahler 8, well I certainly haven't heard it in a long time so maybe I should give it another chance. I just found the whole thing a little too unrelenting in its grandiosity, and found it left me rather cold. I find Mahler to be a very personal composer (I love the 4th and 9th for this very reason) and I found the 8th to be quite the opposite. Mahler's personality seemed to be hidden behind all the bluster and bombast. Having said that it may be in part due to the poor performance I have of this piece. I have a Bernstein recording with the Wiener Phil. which claims to be an "historic recording from the Salzburger Festspiele in 1975". It sounds like it was recorded late in the festival as the soloists (Margaret Price, Judith Blegen, Gerti Zeumer, Trudeliese Schmidt, Agnes Baltsa, Kenneth Riegel, Hermann Prey, and Jose van Dam) seem to miss as many notes as they hit, and everyone sounds tired and shagged-out (after a long squalk). Even the Wiener Phil manages to sound well below it's usual standard. I often feel these live performances work better in the concert hall than on CD. Can you recommend a good recording of the 8th? Preferably not live, historic, or squalky! Thanks.

I know the recording you refer to and it is indeed poor, I think this may be the reason for your lack of enthusiasm for the piece. There are two superior performances on very reasonably priced CD's as follows:

London Symphony & Chorus etc. cond by Bernstein on Sony Classical:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...nce&s=classical

and Decca's Sir Georg Solti recording with the Chicago Symphony et al:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...nce&s=classical

The latter stated are definitely worth hunting down and feature superb sound engineering that should make all the difference for you. Many thanks for your tip re Zander's 3rd, Jeff also raves about it so I will certainly be chasing it down.

Thanks for the tip. I'll track down one of the recordings you recommended. Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I've been in sunny France for the last 3 weeks!

James

[Beethoven 0]

I love John William's music whether it's original (which is rare) or plagiarized (often). America hasn't had any great composers like Europe has and John Williams is the best that we have to offer.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I love John William's music whether it's original (which is rare) or plagiarized (often). America hasn't had any great composers like Europe has and John Williams is the best that we have to offer.

I'll take the ' date=' that you meant

I love John William's music whether it's original (almost always) or plagiarized (very rare). America hasn't had any great composers like Europe haD and John Williams is the best NOW.

or otherwise:

[Morn 8]

Well it's not plagiarism, at worst inspiration.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

How can inspiration be a bad thing?

And Beethoven, what do you mean by America not having had any great composers? What about Barber (School of Scandal is amazing)? Copland (Check out the dance symphony)? Adams (Harmonielehre Slonimsky's Earbox)? etc etc.

[Morn 8]

I did not mean to say inspiration is a bad thing, rather that at best it's pure chance at worst inspiration.