was williams out of ideas?

[tony69 0]

Listen to No Ticket from Indiana Jones-Last Crusade. Then Gilderoy Lockhart. Sounds extremely similar (though a bit different). Still tho, same orchestration minus the harpsichord... Almost same melody with changes here and there... anyone else notice this?

[David Vincent 8]

Right, the two pieces sounds a little similar.

Just for comparison :

- No Ticket MIDI file.

- Gilderoy Lockhart MIDI file.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Remember, Williams had very little time to work on COS.

Of course you could fault hime for wasting some of that time on doing concert versions for Fawkes The Phoenix and The Chamber of Secrets thus neglecting the underscore.

[David Vincent 8]

Remember, Williams had very little time to work on COS.

And I think he made an excellent work, like for the other two Harry Potter soundtracks.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

There's an even closer similarity in CoS. Some of the unreleased quidditch music appears to be almost note-for-note from the chase through Coruscant in AotC.

[Morlock 11]

I don't know if he was out of ideas, the piece is perfect for the character and the movie. Sometimes the best route is rehashing material.

Incidentaly, being in a Potter mood lately, I put in the OST of CoS, which I haven't done in a while. I made a CD of the most imporatant parts of all 3 scores, and while I still listen often to the other OSTs, I didn't remember how good CoS really was.

There's a lot of strong new material, and I love a lot of what's done with the old material.

I enjoy the Prologue, a great introduction, it's nice to hear a mini suite of all those themes.

Fawkes is as fantastic as ever.

Chamber of Secrets is a piece I didn't so much appreciate initialy, but I've come to love, a great theme, wonderfully orchestrated, especialy the strings, which bring back wonderful memories of Dracula.

Gilderoy Lockheart fits perfectly.

The Flying Car is a great cue, perfectly capturing the dizzying experience, and I love the interpolation of the old themes.

Knockturn Alley has a new little version of the theme, and it's always pleasant to hear the Harry's Wonderous World theme.

I like the Home Alone style playfulness at the begining of Introducing Colin.

I think The Dueling Club is making great use of the Lockheart theme, and I love the rythmic section at 1:53.

Dobby The House Elf is fine theme for the character, and the orchestration uses the theme for all it's worth.

I never liked the Spider theme, though it is very effective. I rarely listened to this track all the way through, but it's got a couple of fun ideas in the last minute of the track.

I love Moaning Myrtle's theme, very fitting, and just a wonderfully comic idea perfectly presented, first in the slightely mysterious sounding strings, then in the gentle woodwinds, then in the obviously comic version with a slight carnival sound to it.

Meeting Aragorg is a nice little suspensful piece.

Fawkes is Reborn reminds me of the terrible animatronic, but it does have snippets of the theme nicely done.

Meeting Tom Riddle has a couple of nice passages in it.

I Don't like anything in Cornish Pixies.

I love the goofy version of the Nimbus 2000 theme in Polyjuice Potion and Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle. It's a really strong theme, that can really stand up to almost endless variations.

The second half Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle offers us the only taste on the OST of the Chamber of Secrets theme in hushed tones, I love the last minute and a half of it.

Dueling The Basilisk has a fantastic opening, and a couple of nice moments, like the choral bit at 2:44 and 3:11.

Reunion of Friends is a lovely piece, with the lovely flute opening to Harry's Wonderous World, and all kinds of variation on all the pleasant themes of the first film.

So much of the good stuff in the score is small, a snippet, little, a bit, ect., but concidering that JW had very little time to do this, a handful of good (or better) new themes, and a whole lot of good variation of themes, old and new is not too bad. Makes for a fine OST listen, and works well in the movie. But I cant' for the life of me understand why they couldn't put in more of the Chamber of Secrets hushed tones material. It's fantastic suspensful writing, and I think the only worthy unreleased material (though I think I'm gonna wathc the film again, and then draw my conclusions).

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

The rythm in The Dueling Club is probably my favorite part of the album, although there's lots of stuff I like on it. It's a shame the score (and particularly that part of The Dueling Club) was mixed so low in the film. Especially compared to the relatively loud mix on the previous film.

[fommes 153]

I never liked the Spider theme, though it is very effective. I rarely listened to this track all the way through, but it's got a couple of fun ideas in the last minute of the track.

That's funny, that's my favorite track on the album. I love it how after all the previous orchestral outbursts, Williams manages to write a relentless climax - I'm especially fond of that climax's opening (as in the film the car chase through the woods begins).

[ridan 0]

Isn't the music at the end of "Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle" used when Harry rides the eagle-stair into Dumbldore's office?

[Morlock 11]

Yup, after the bit of the Chamber theme.

BTW, I found what Doug Adams said about the score (in FSM Vol 8, No. 1), and I think he put his fingure on what makes the CoS score good, despite not being as serious a work as the scores it's sandwiched between (or rather, because of it):

It lacks the linear focus of modern Williams, but it returns to the coloristically explorative voice of Williams in the mid-'70s- like one of those little Black Sunday gems that slips under the radar. There's an orchestral playfulness in Potter, suggesting Williams never has time to second-guess himself. While it may be somewhat less refined than the Williams of the '90s and 2000's, it tosses its orchestral palette around irresistibly.

I think that the orchestral playfulness very much extended on to Azkaban, but that score does sound a lot more substansive, a lot more refined, a lot more thought through than CoS. But the fun quality and the giddiness of this score make it rather irresistable in my eyes.

[tony69 0]

yes. PoA was great. Cos...well that was my least favourite of the harry potter scores. I hated the gilderoy theme. and the dobby theme? ughs. Mind you, the one theme i liked was the Chamber of Secrets theme, because of its great orchestration. the sul pont violin slides. mmm....delicious.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I loved Gilderoy's theme. It suited him so much! Anyone else notice the similarity of the creepy music in Dueling Club when Harry speaks Parseltongue and the opening of "Eye to Eye" in Jurassic Park? It's never been mentioned here I've noticed.

There's an even closer similarity in CoS. Some of the unreleased quidditch music appears to be almost note-for-note from the chase through Coruscant in AotC.

It actually was the same music, tracked in. I guess his time really was cutting thin.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I disagree, with COS the magic was gone, 2 nice concert tracks does not a good score make.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Some of the rehashed tracks from Philosopher's Stone in Chamber of Secrets sounded better than the original for some reason. For me, CoS is a more enjoyable album out of the first two overall.

[A24 4,326]

TPS is one big rehash for those who knew Williams.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Care to give examples?

[A24 4,326]

Care to give examples?

Stefancos, he putted several previous compostitions into his mangler and out of it came these clones but with their notes in a different order. Even the arrangements sounded overfamiliar, not identical or self-plagiarism, mind you, but overfamiliar. Every knowledgable Williams fan who has been following his career over several decades knows this. Williams' goal was to enchant and to recruit little kids and instead of being fresh he choose the easy way.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I know that and I can hear some of them. (TLW in The Quidditch Match)

But you didn't answer this question....

Care to give examples?

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

TPS: The Philosoper's Stone?

Then i agree. That's why though being great music, i cannot say it is a masterpiece. But These are not lift offs, just little quotes and moods, that make the score not enough original to be a masterpiece.

Some examples:

Christmas at Hogwarts (has a little passage mixture of ET and Home alone)

Quidditch match (modern Williams trademark from TLW, but then it a little like the boom-tzz, so it is not bad.)

One of Harry's themes sound like one from Hook. (same degree of similarity than Across the stars)

And i think there are some more.

Anyway the music as i said, is excellent

[A24 4,326]

It's too long ago, Stefancos. I can't remember the exact themes but these were my thoughts when TPS was just released and because it sounded so rehash I refused to buy the CD. I was very dissapointed at the time, thinking Williams had nothing more to offer. It was only just recently that I picked it up for a ridiculously cheap price. I will put in on right now but chances are that repeatedly hearing the themes have erased my first impressions.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Richard Penna 3,673]

Curiously, has anyone ever noticed Dobby's theme in Platform 9 3/4 from PS? I can hear the main first 4 notes clearly about 8 or 9 seconds in, at the very start of the second rendition of the sort of 'march'. Possibly a reference to Dobby's doings in the 2nd movie or am I overanalyzing this?

[publicist 4,643]

Care to give examples?

Of course. 'The Witches of Eastwick', 'Home Alone' and, above all, 'Hook' which in itself was derivative of the former two.

[Lurker 5]

It actually was the same music, tracked in. I guess his time really was cutting thin.

Are you saying there is AOTC music tracked into Chamber of Secrets without any credit given to that score? Or is it possible it was re-recorded for COS with the same orchestra just a few months later, so it sounds very similar? Anyway, you can hear it in the movie and can tell it's a different performance.

Neil

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

HP & PS:

Track 5

1:41 to 1:54 and 2:34 to 2:49 Droid theme from ROTJ

2:10 to 2:20 The fury theme

Track 10

Similar to Jar Jar's theme, almost carbon copy segment at 0:50 to 0:56

1:57 to 2:45 Hook Finale (also as finale, in track 18)

Track 11

0:00 to 0:30 i think i have heard this before, cant locate it

2:46 to 3:10 Circus train part from Indy's very First adeventure

3:46 to 5:10 Most blatant re-usage of Ludlow's Demise

Track 12

1:30 to 1:48 (twice) Home alone and ET mix

Track 13

1:10 to 1:20 AI (this is forgetable as the both were composed the same year and these things are inevitable)

Track 16

The Patriot

2:20 to 2:40 Saving Private Ryan?

As i said they are small segments, but for me, they make the score not as original as it should.

And about Dobby's theme i think i also heard it richuk.

[Adam 1]

In terms of the thread title, now that I think about it the Last Crusade scene is a comedic scene where Jones is taking on the pretensions of being somebody he’s not. The Lockhart theme is a comedic piece for a character who takes on the pretensions of being something he’s not. So I don’t think he runs out of ideas so much as he’s not against using particular approaches that he’s used before if its useful for the scene. And I doubt its deliberate - he just goes wherever the scene suggests and that’s why there’s plenty of differences too.

But they’re both quasi-serious and pretensious pieces with a wink at the audience. I can see how that approach would work with both kinds of scenes from the movies though I think Last Crusade most have been edited down cause the piece has a much smaller appearance in the movie if I remember correctly.

- Adam

[Trumpeteer 302]

Wow. The next thing people will be saying is that Williams swiped from "The Empire Strikes Back" when he composed the main theme for "Nixon."

Just enjoy the score, people. I was just listening to "Sorcerer's Stone" in the car, and it's such a fantastic listen. If there are any rehahshes, I'm sure it's in the notation, improved or changed with some new orchestrations and pacing. There are only a limited number of musical notes in the universe, not to mention the limits a particular scene will call for.

I'm hoping the anti-"Sorcerer's Stone" people don't hate the score because they notice music from other scores. Heck, then there isn't a score in the world they should like, because almost everything has similarities to another score.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Well said, Jeff. The similarities are merelym stylistic, people. Even in most of your specific examples, Luke (which I appreciate you taking the time to do, thus substantiating your opinion moreso than others), I really don't believe the music to be rehash. He's merely writing in the same style he wrote for Hook and Home Alone, etc.

Ray Barnsbury

[King Mark 3,625]

For me HPPS is now a "classic" JW scores in the same category as Jaws,SW,E.T.,JP...ect..

Deos it "sound familiar" as Alexcremmers says...yes,of course,but that's personally the type of score I like from Williams.I never tire of that type of writing.

K.M.

[Lurker 5]

For me HPPS is now a "classic" JW scores in the same category as Jaws,SW,E.T.,JP...ect..

Neil

[A24 4,326]

For me HPPS is now a "classic" JW scores in the same category as Jaws,SW,E.T.,JP...ect..

Deos it "sound familiar" as Alexcremmers says...yes,of course,but that's personally the type of score I like from Williams.I never tire of that type of writing.

And yet, king Marcus, if someone else wrote HPPS, you'd be calling him a hacking plagiarist. The problem is that HPPS reminds us too much of Williams' previous work (Hook, Home Alone, E.T.). And that's the very reason why, in my opinion, HPPS could never be a classic. To be a worthy classic, the music requires to be a bit more authentic, more original ... and less rehash. You know, just like Star Wars or Alien (the movies) were new and set a new standard. The films that copied those movies will never be classics. Jaws, Star Wars, E.T. are the real classic soundtracks. They are true landmarks, the real cornerstones, and they are all differ greatly from one another.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I have no problem with HPPS at all. It's a great score.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Well said, Jeff.  The similarities are merelym stylistic, people.  Even in most of your specific examples, Luke (which I appreciate you taking the time to do, thus substantiating your opinion moreso than others), I really don't believe the music to be rehash.  He's merely writing in the same style he wrote for Hook and Home Alone, etc.

Ray Barnsbury

That's what i said too, that is has the style (and the rehashes are just small tidbits)

Luke, who likes the music.

My sentiment is a residual one from with my former 'hate' of everything related to HP, i feld 'betrayed when i read Williams' was doing it and when i heard the score, that i bought for my sister (and later i had to buy it from her when i became a true collector), i felt a little 'embarrased' because my sister could say 'thats a rip off from TLW' and so on, since i say Williams is the best and never does a 'Horner'

Luke, 2 happy with the three HP scores

And KM (and Neil for agreeing) in the classic list, WHERE IS RAIDERS! and neil dont you dislike JP?

[Lurker 5]

And KM (and Neil for agreeing) in the classic list, WHERE IS RAIDERS! and neil dont you dislike JP?

I also disagree with KM's abbreviation for "etcetera".

But there is no denying that the first HP score is a classic. And yes, it's far better than Jurassic Park.

Neil

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

And KM (and Neil for agreeing) in the classic list, WHERE IS RAIDERS! and neil dont you dislike JP?

I also disagree with KM's abbreviation for "etcetera".

But there is no denying that the first HP score is a classic. And yes, it's far better than Jurassic Park.

Neil

Dunno Neil. I always thought Prisoner of Azkaban was the classic score of the series. Philosopher's Stone better than Jurassic Park? Um... okay.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

and the stupid comment of the day goes too:

TPS is one big rehash for those who knew Williams.

as the winner of the stupid comment Alex will receive a weeks worth of boo's and hisses, and a years supply of Campbells Poup, MMmm good, MMmm good, thats what Campbells Poup is MMmm good.

publicist is runners up, he gets a week worth of disdain and ridicule.

[publicist 4,643]

I'm hoping the anti-"Sorcerer's Stone" people don't hate the score because they notice music from other scores. Heck, then there isn't a score in the world they should like, because almost everything has similarities to another score.

blah, blah, blah. It comes down to the fact that some people mind (read: are bored by) the similar patterns, others get all fuzzy and warm inside.

@ Joe: i take that disdain with great pride.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

@ Joe: i take that disdain with great pride.

whatever.

[A24 4,326]

and the stupid comment of the day goes too:

TPS is one big rehash for those who knew Williams.

as the winner of the stupid comment Alex will receive a weeks worth of boo's and hisses, and a years supply of Campbells Poup, MMmm good, MMmm good, thats what Campbells Poup is MMmm good.

publicist is runners up, he gets a week worth of disdain and ridicule.

It requires a certain amount of musical insight to understand my comment, Joe. I bet you were overjoyed by its freshness.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Ooh, snooty arguing. This should be fun.

- Marc,

[JoeinAR 1,949]

and the stupid comment of the day goes too:

TPS is one big rehash for those who knew Williams.

as the winner of the stupid comment Alex will receive a weeks worth of boo's and hisses, and a years supply of Campbells Poup, MMmm good, MMmm good, thats what Campbells Poup is MMmm good.

publicist is runners up, he gets a week worth of disdain and ridicule.

It requires a certain amount of musical insight to understand my comment, Joe. I bet you were overjoyed by its freshness.

----------------

Alex Cremers

ah smug superiority, it always smells so fresh.

oh please dear Alex on high,

tell those of us, you know, the musically infirmed, why?

I know that we should take you on your word, and if you explain with more than a mere statement of fact it will likely go over our heads, but for once humor us with your vast musical insight, tell us, please.

I am waiting on baited breath. I have no doubt it will be beyond the typically tired Home Alone, and Hook arguments.

[A24 4,326]

Joe, what's wrong with you, you either recognize the rehash that took place or you don't. Anyone with a musical ear does, why don't you?

---------------

Alex cremers

[Greg1138 3]

:roll:

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Joe, what's wrong with you, you either recognize the rehash that took place or you don't. Anyone with a musical ear does, why don't you?  

---------------

Alex cremers

another quality answer, typical of smug superiority.

[A24 4,326]

Well, I guess you will always have your sports .

[Jeshopk 8]

I'm not sure a great composer like Williams can ever "run out of ideas", but great composers have all revisited their work and written similar themes as they had in the past. Not to the level of Horner, but certainly a healthy thing for a composer to do. After all, are you supposed to give up on an idea after writing only a few minutes of it? There would be so many other creative stones left unturned.

[jamesie 1]

I will just say that... Anyone who hears that "multitude" of re-hash "carbon-copy" music in the Harry Potter scores is full of it. 8O I just listen to the scores cause I like them and don't try to pin Williams for ACCIDENTLY (most likely) putting 2 notes together that were also used in a HOOK TRACK!!! NOOO!!! Honestly, I can only hear one carbon copy thing in CoS... And that's that thingy in the Quidditch match. And I can hear a little bit of Star of Bethlehem in the Dobby Theme. Some of you guys are almost TRYING to catch Williams re-using material. :?

[A24 4,326]

I'm not sure a great composer like Williams can ever "run out of ideas", but great composers have all revisited their work and written similar themes as they had in the past. Not to the level of Horner, but certainly a healthy thing for a composer to do. After all, are you supposed to give up on an idea after writing only a few minutes of it? There would be so many other creative stones left unturned.

So you hear it too? The point is Williams never did it so excessively. This is the closest he ever came to being a Horner, so why call it a classic?

[King Mark 3,625]

Because HHPS has the sounds that makes Williams what he is,those are the c.d.'s we will still listen to in 10 years,not something odd and "experimental" that doesn't sound like he normally does.

K.M.

[Jeshopk 8]

So you hear it too? The point is Williams never did it so excessively. This is the closest he ever came to being a Horner, so why call it a classic?

In Harry Potter 1, I only heard a few places where I felt Williams music was quite close to other things he's written. I don't really think there are more in HP1 than any other score of his. But in HP2, there are surely a lot more than usual due to the fact that he didn't plan on working on it and basically re-arranged HP1.

The Quidditch Match includes an improvement on a Lost World riff. I'd rather scrap the original if I had to keep just one. Hogwarts Forever is similar to the beginning of "Variations on Happy Birthday", but nobody would have heard it unless it was in a movie. The Family Theme is similar to a Hook theme, but it quickly took on an identity of its own after a few listenings. Other than that, there are similar orchestrations to Home Alone 1 and 2, but nothing concrete other than the jingly happy celeste atmosphere.

However, here is what makes the score have its own identity.

1) Hedwig's Theme

2) Harry's Wondrous World

3) The Dog music

4) The beginning and ending of the Quidditch Match is original and highly emotional

5) Voldemort's Theme

6) The Scorcerer's Stone Theme

7) The Chess Match (brilliant orchestration!)

8) The best use of voices since Indy Trilogy

9) The christmas song

10) The invisible cloak

11) Many minutes of original incidental music

12) Small ensembles and solos abound

The high level of inspiration by Williams can't be missed. Why focus on the few similarities it shares with other scores when there are so many unique characteristics? All of Williams' scores since the 70's bear some resemblance to his earlier ones. There's no point in damning a score for it. Just be less cynical and realize that Williams is not cynical when he resembles himself. Even when he revisits old ideas, he does it with an inspired, eager freshness so that you would never know which came first had you never been told.

[A24 4,326]

,not something odd and "experimental" that doesn't sound like he normally does.

Who's talking about "experimental"? :?