Williams vs Goldsmith

[tony69 0]

I was having a discussion with a person who played in Hollywood. He played under Williams, Horner, Goldsmith, even "Hank" Mancini. And what was interesting was his opinions on Goldsmith vs Williams. I was asking who he thought was better. And he said Goldsmith is the most creative film composer. Williams on the other hand is the technician. No other film composer is as refined as Williams in technical matters. He didn't answer my question but now i pose it to you. What do you think? Johnny or Jerry?

[Trent B 337]

In my opinion, you really can't do a versus....they're both equally good composers. Well Goldsmith was an awesome composer when he was still alive. Williams is still alive and still writing music. As I said though they're both equal.

Just my $0.02 worth...

[stewdog1 50]

They are both great in their own ways and styles. Goldsmith was always experimenting with sounds, Williams usually stays with the status quo of orchestral writing.

For example, Williams would never use the synthesizer effects that Goldsmith usually whipped out. Think ST: TMP and Planet of the Apes.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Chalk and cheese. Apples and oranges. Williams and Goldsmith.

The one thing they have in common as composers is they've written the greatest music for film in the modern era. But their music and their approach is so different, comparisons are pointless. But if you really want to think about it, listen to Poltergeist and Twilight Zone: The Movie and you'll understand what Goldsmith might have done for Spielberg's movies in general, then a quick comparison between the composers can be made.

[Lurker 5]

Goldsmith was an awesome composer when he was still alive.

<insert de-composing joke here>

Neil

[TheRuleOfThirds 0]

But if you really want to think about it, listen to Poltergeist and Twilight Zone: The Movie and you'll understand what Goldsmith might have done for Spielberg's movies in general, then a quick comparison between the composers can be made.

I think "The Clown" is one of the most tightly-scored cues ever. It goes perfectly with the CUs of the clown and the boy. Plus, "Night Visitor" is a pretty cool cue too, when the light just appears at the top of the staircase. Those two are enough proof for me that Spielberg and Goldsmith would've been just as good as the current duo.

[King Mark 3,631]

I always considered Williams #1 and Goldsmith #2 overall.Goldsmith always seemed to score the knock-off of Williams masterpieces or more second rate films(Supergirl,King Solomon's Mines,Star Trek...).

K.M.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Mark, Star Trek is not a knock-off of Star Wars.

Stefancos- who listens to Goldsmith more these days then Williams, though is unsure what that signifies.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Í had the same thing as K.M., but Goldsmith scoring "knock-offs" doesn't mean he's any less of a composer. In fact, Goldsmith to me always seems like this treasure trove of undiscovered goodness. I seriously need to get me some more Goldsmith.

- Marc, who has more Zimmer than Goldsmith. 8O

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

indeed

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I know. Oh the shame!

[Melange 446]

Without a doubt (imo), Goldsmith was the most creative and daring of the two composers. Johnny latest work does very little for me nowadays, apart from the occasional track. Infact a lot of it irritates me because it's starting to get so "yawn" predictable. Goldsmith always pulled rabbits out of the hat with his scores. Whispering demonic voices in The Final Conflict, to the sleepy mystery of Basic Instinct. Goldsmith was the most daring and creative.

[orrakul 0]

Love them both - this is one of those situations where you can't say one is better than the other; JW and JG have very different styles, but in the end, all of the music is wonderful - that's all that counts.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Well many latest Goldsmith scores are as similar between them as John's latest...

[Adam 1]

I think I agree with the orchestra player somewhat with Williams’ technique being more refined. There’s more complexity and difficulty in the arrangements, in general, and I also think JW is more technically exact in the way he matches the music with the visuals though Goldsmith was one of the best. So its all relative.

As people have said, the thing that made Goldsmith more interesting at times is that he would be more likely to take an inventive approach to a movie. At his best, there’s a feeling that he’s elevating the film but in a way that is original. On the other hand, there’s a lot of times when he threw in a weird electronic sound and, though it may be different, its not exactly that creative in my mind or useful for the movie in some cases. So I think his synthesizer phase was a mixed-bag somewhat and his action music, maybe more in the latter stages of his career, often felt too one-dimensional with his pulsating rhythm approach.

I found myself longing for stuff like Rudy, where he could write on a smaller scale for a movie worthy of his music. A score like that has a simplicity about it but speaks directly with a lot of heart and excitement. There’s a lot of scores I don’t know but the ones that are most impressive to me are scores like Basic Instinct, Gremlins, Hoosiers, etc. With these kinds of scores its hard to even compare with JW because Goldsmith found something that worked so well. Its hard to imagine anything different just like its hard to imagine The Godfather without Rota, ET without Williams, etc., etc.

With JW, while there's a personal evolution no doubt, there’s more of a sense that his music will be roughly as different as the movies themselves. So I think that leads to a predictability. But I can’t really fault that and I think its that kind of consistency in approach that has led to his unprecedented success in Hollywood.

I also think Goldsmith, though very versatile, had something that feels more personal in many of his scores (the pretty melody taking off on high strings for example) so there’s a sense in which maybe a lot of fans “bonded” with Goldsmith in a way that may be less common with JW, despite his reputation. But that’s just a general impression.

- Adam

[MSM 126]

- Marc, who has more Zimmer than Goldsmith.

Terrible indeed. 8O

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Jerry Goldsmith was very good,

but he was no John Williams.

I prefer JW to JG anyday, not that both weren't great, but even know in John's older years, he's much better than JG was in his last years, where everything sounded the same.

Whats interesting is that both had a similar period of great years.

but look at it this way.

Poltergeist is great, E.T. is greater.

Some say Supergirl is great, but there is no doubt Superman is greater.

The Omen is great, but the Fury is greater(or more interesting)

besides, Jerry loses ground because an upstart like Brian Tyler actually wrote a more interesting score for Timeline than Jerry did, and Jerry's sounded just like all his other scores of the past few years.

[TheRuleOfThirds 0]

I actually think "The Mission" is one of Jerry's best cues ever written. Sure, "Real Time" sounded like a knock-off of Rambo, but it was still fun. Plus, I thought the TMP quotes in Nemesis were way better than FC or Insurrection (especially "Enterprise Flyover"). I'm one of the few people in the camp that consider Looney Tunes Back in Action to be a masterpiece. It was one of those trademark Goldsmith scores. Nothing groundbreaking, but it definitely had the Goldsmith sound that he dusts off for a Dante film.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I was going to ask about that. How's Tyler's Timeline? I really like his Children of Dune.

- Marc, thinking of getting Goldsmith's Timeline.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Marc, thinking of getting Goldsmith's Timeline.

Do...or do not, there is no think.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

That's what you think.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes I do...or don't.

[Morlock 11]

That's for darn sure.

Mark, I personaly think that you should get some other JG score over Timeline, concidering you don't have very much. It's not one of his better score. It's fine, it works, but he has so many more worthwhile scores, even if you had as many JG CDs as all Zimmer CDs in existance.

[Morlock 11]

For me JW is always number one. Depending on what I'm listening to at the moment, Jerry is either a close second, or half a miniscule step behing, but JW is always clearly on top. John's style is just more attuned to me personaly. Much as I love Jerry, i have a hard time naming his best scores, can't think of a single score of his that I can whole-heartedly rank as great as the best JW, yet that's not in a bad way. I kinda think of the two on two totally different planes of existance. John's my favorite based on his body of work consisting of score after perfect score, of which each consists of at least a few (usually several) great cues. Jerry's my second favorite based on his body of work. Not score after score, just a never wavering integrity to the work, and almost always, a high quality level. I often ask myself why I love Jerry so much, but the moment I listen to even the slightest of his cues, I remember.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Is First Blood part II still around?

[QMM 4]

Of the Goldsmith stuff that I have (not much) I listen to Patton and Ghost and the Darkness the most

[Morlock 11]

Is First Blood part II still around?

Indeed it is.

I've recently made my first purchase from Intrada (called it in), and it was a splendid transaction all around. Bought me The Blue Max, Capricorn One, and Patch of Blue (the last two are nearly sold out I think). Forgot to get the Rambo scores. Next time around.

Morlock- who taken on the suicidal task of being a Goldsmith completist, just as fast as he finds the funding (45 CDs and counting so far, up from the approximately 7 CDs I had before listening to the Fox set and realizing I really, really, really love Jerry Goldsmith's music.)

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Poltergeist is great, E.T. is greater.

E.T. is great, Poltergeist is greater.

Some say Supergirl is great, but there is no doubt Superman is greater.

Superman is good with great bits. Supergirl is somewhat boring, but has the superior main title.

The Omen is great, but the Fury is greater(or more interesting)

Yes. Though not really that more interesting, there's awesome "interesting" stuff in the choral writing of Omen. Still, I've always thought Omen is a great score on CD and just a good score in the film.

Marian - who has Capricorn One and Wild Rovers on order from Intrada (along with Waxman's Prince Valiant).

[sithless 0]

I have a VERY large collection of the music of both Williams and Goldsmith. What always stands out is how particular Williams has been about what he will score and rarely has had a real clinker since the late 60's (notice I said rarely) He seems to go for quality rather than quantity and has also spent a little more time on concert work than Goldsmith did. With Jerry it seem like he did a lot of films for the paycheck no matter what their quality. True, he often made a really bad film a little bit better with the expertise of his scores, but he was hardly discriminating. There were even a few that I think he wrote overnight (i.e.: 'I.Q.', 'The River Wild', 'Mom and Dad Save the World', etc.). I have always preferred Williams with Herrmann running a close second, then Jerry.

One thing few people will argue... they are both masters and will always have a place among the very best that have ever put music to film.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

How's Logan's Run?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

E.T. is great, Poltergeist is greater.

Well, personal opinion.

Superman is good with great bits. Supergirl is somewhat boring, but has the superior main title.

OH MY GODNESS!

This is beyond personal opinion this is madness!

Luke, who is going to watch Timeline, and is going to be letdown becasue the score is going to be different.

Really was the movie so edited? I doubt the main titles were changed at all... Wouldnt have been cheaper and easier to hire an orchestrator or minor composer to adapt Goldsmiths music? And much respectful for the late Goldsmith

[HPFAN_2 0]

John Williams.

[King Mark 3,631]

I've been listening to Goldsmith scores on my ipod lately,and I noticed he had a very annoying phase of putting cartoon sound effects right in the music.So far I heard them in Mr.Baseball,Gremlins 2,and Twilight Zone the Movie which have some tracks ruined by them.Any other score has this???

K.M.

[Trent B 337]

Ya those synth noises appear in his Star Trek scores too...especially for Insurrection and Nemesis. They were pretty bad in Insurrection....sounded like rubber bands or something....was very annoying.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

How's Logan's Run?

If you're allergic to 70's synths you should be careful, but personally I consider it fantastic. And it has much more than synths, too.

I've been listening to Goldsmith scores on my ipod lately,and I noticed he had a very annoying phase of putting cartoon sound effects right in the music.So far I heard them in Mr.Baseball,Gremlins 2,and Twilight Zone the Movie which have some tracks ruined by them.Any other score has this???

I can't remember it from TZ right now, and I don't know Mr. Baseball. However, I think it works perfectly in Gremlins 2 - it IS a lunatic, over-the-top score after all, plus the cartoon synths are more or less a musical signature for the cartoon mogwai. I found the Deagle synths in the first Gremlins more annoying, and it took me a long time to get used to them. (On the other hand, the "gremlin sing voice" synths in the first score have to be the - in a positive way - craziest synth sound ever used in a film score).

Marian - LOL

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

How's Logan's Run?

If you're allergic to 70's synths you should be careful, but personally I consider it fantastic. And it has much more than synths, too.

I think I'll skip it then, for now.

I have 4 CDs standing ready to order. I'm going to wait until I've purchased my new TV (which I may do today). If I have some decent money left, then I'll order those.

- Marc

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I would not advise Logan's Run if you are a novice Goldsmith fan, parts of the score are pretty "out there".

For a taste of prime 70's Goldsmith look for The Omen.

[Jim Ware 526]

If you feel like trying some early Goldsmith, look for Studs Lonigan.

The six minute 'A Game of Pool' is worth the price of the album on it's own. It also features great piano playing from a 27 year old Johnny Williams.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Blah...

Early goldsmith had good stuff, no doubt.

But his 60's/70's period was ntt as consistantly good as hos 80's/90's/2000 period.

[sithless 0]

But his 60's/70's period was ntt as consistantly good as hos 80's/90's/2000 period.

Didn't he compose 'Patton', 'Planet of the Apes', 'The Omen', 'The Blue Max', 'The Wind and the Lion', 'Masada' and many of his other classics during the 60's and 70's? I think it was just the opposite... in the 80's - 2000's he started writing (as I stated earlier) for the paycheck.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Didn't he compose 'Patton', 'Planet of the Apes', 'The Omen', 'The Blue Max', 'The Wind and the Lion', 'Masada' and many of his other classics during the 60's and 70's?  I think it was just the opposite... in the 80's - 2000's he started writing (as I stated earlier) for the paycheck.

With the exeption of Masada which was an 80's production you are correct.

And here's a list of the some other projects Jerry Goldsmith took in the late 60's and the 70's.

# Players (1979)

# The Swarm (1978)

# Damien: Omen II (1978)

... aka Omen II

... aka Omen II: Damien (reissue title)

# Damnation Alley (1977)

# Islands in the Stream (1977)

# Twilight's Last Gleaming (1977)

... aka Nuclear Countdown

... aka Ultimatum, Das (West Germany)

# The Hemingway Play (1977) (TV)

# The Cassandra Crossing (1976)

... aka Cassandra Crossing (Italy) (West Germany)

... aka Treffpunkt Todesbrücke (West Germany)

# High Velocity (1976)32

# Breakheart Pass (1975)

# The Reincarnation of Peter Proud (1975)

# Babe (1975) (TV)

# Take a Hard Ride (1975)

... aka Lunga cavalcata, La

... aka Parola di un fuorilegge... è legge!, La (Italy)

# Medical Story (1975) (TV)

# Adams of Eagle Lake (1975) (TV)

# A Girl Named Sooner (1975) (TV)

# Breakout (1975)

# "Archer" (1975) TV Series

# Ransom (1975)

... aka The Terrorists (USA)

# S*P*Y*S (1974) (US version)

# Winter Kill (1974) (TV)

# A Tree Grows in Brooklyn (1974) (TV)

# Indict and Convict (1974) (TV)

# The Don Is Dead (1973)

... aka Beautiful But Deadly (USA: TV title)

... aka The Deadly Kiss

# "Police Story" (1973) TV Series

# Ace Eli and Rodger of the Skies (1973)

# The Police Story (1973) (TV)

# Hawkins on Murder (1973) (TV)

... aka Death and the Maiden

# Shamus (1973)

... aka Passion for Danger

# "Barnaby Jones" (1973) TV Series (theme)

# One Little Indian (1973)

# Pursuit (1972/I) (TV)

... aka Binary

# "The Adventurer" (1972) TV Series

# "Anna and the King" (1972) TV Series

# "The Waltons" (1972) TV Series (theme) (1972)

# The Man (1972)

# The Other (1972)

# The Culpepper Cattle Company (1972)

... aka Dust, Sweat and Gunpowder (Australia)

# Crawlspace (1972) (TV)

# Lights Out (1972) (TV)

# The Homecoming: A Christmas Story (1971) (TV)

# Crosscurrent (1971/I) (TV)

... aka The Cable Car Murder

# Do Not Fold, Spindle, or Mutilate (1971) (TV)

# The Last Run (1971)

# Wild Rovers (1971)

# Escape from the Planet of the Apes (1971)

# The Mephisto Waltz (1971)

# A Step Out of Line (1971) (TV)

# The Going Up of David Lev (1971) (TV)

# Rio Lobo (1970)

... aka San Timoteo

# The Traveling Executioner (1970)

# The Brotherhood of the Bell (1970) (TV)

# The Ballad of Cable Hogue (1970)

# "Room 222" (1969) TV Series

# Justine (1969/I)

# The Chairman (1969)

... aka The Most Dangerous Man in the World (UK)

# 100 Rifles (1969)

# The Illustrated Man (1969)

# The Helicopter Spies (1968) (TV) (The Man From U.N.C.L.E. Theme)

# Bandolero! (1968)

# The Detective (1968)

Are you saying he took none of these assignments because of a decent paycheck?

Would there have been any other reason for Goldsmith to score the Swarm, Damien: Omen II, Escape From The Planet Of The Apes or S*P*Y*S?

Most films listed here are actually rather obscure.

What's wrong with working for a paycheck anyway, as long as you deliver a good job?

[Olivier 5]

Williams has a more "classical" sound-- which is not to say Goldsmith could not do it (the "Prologue" for The Agony and the Ecstasy is a case in point); Williams is overall more "classical".

This certainly makes him of easier approach to casual film score listeners.

Williams is also incredibly good at churning out immediately hummable, memorable, recognizable, popular themes.

Again, this is not to say Goldmsith couldn't do it, but Williams does have quite a knack for it-- so does John Barry.

This is also a major factor.

However, as pointed out, even though Williams has experimented a bit and evolved through time, and is still able to surprise us, Goldsmith was definitely the more versatile, experimental and creative of the two-- this time, it's the opposite: I'm not saying Williams couldn't be, but this seems to run counter to his "classical" side; and he may simple not have had that much opportunity to do it, and have always been asked to deliver the same "Williams sound".

I started with John Williams, collectings his blockbuster scores, then Goldsmith. Eventually (and relatively quickly), my Goldsmith collection expanded more rapidly than my Williams collection, and I have thus many more Goldsmith than Williams scores.

Specifically, I essentially have Williams' big works, and a few "smaller" scores (ie, for "lesser" movies-- not necessarily in terms of quality, but of box office success)-- The River, Space Camp, Stanley and Iris, Heartbeeps, ...

As noted in this thread, Goldsmith scored lots and lots of the lesser kind, and I have (most of) these.

In the end, whatever the movie's importance, I have been only very very rarely disappointed with Goldsmith's music; it may not be always groundbreaking, but he did enough for most film music & movies to be "lazy" at times, and even so-so Goldsmith or Williams (as compared to their usual work) is better than the best from many others.

On the other hand, I'm not equally attracted to Williams' lesser works-- the samples from Johnny Goldfarb, Please Come Home were enough for me not to buy it, for instance.

To wrap this up, Williams to me is more "classical", while Goldsmith is more varied and wild.

Williams has indeed been more discriminating, but this may have been a mixed blessing that sort of typecasted him into what people considered to be "the Williams sound": lush melodies, instant standards, heroic fanfares, ...

Goldsmith's mixed bag of good, bad and forgettable movies probably gave him more freedom-- though, of course, the composer is always the director/producer's servant; on the other hand, I can't imagine anybody ordering Williams around that much (not that he would be uncooperative, but simply because they might not dare contradict the man who gave Superman, "Bruce" and Darth Vader their themes).

[sithless 0]

Are you saying he took none of these assignments because of a decent paycheck?
What I'm saying is the very few of the films that you listed above compare with dogs like 'Link', 'Baby: Secret of the Lost legend', 'Mom and Dad Save the World', 'Matinee', 'Lionheart' (which was a theatrical film that was so bad it was never even given wide release), 'Rent-a-cop' (aaaarrrrrggghhh), 'The Challenge' (oh, the pain), etc.  And, if I not mistaken, quite a few of the obscure films you listed above were television films that he was contracturaly obligated to do.  As far as the paycheck thing goes, my opinion remains that in the 80's and 90's he NO LONGER NEEDED the money but still did awful films that were beneath his talent.

[TheRuleOfThirds 0]

Maybe he did it for an ego boost? That way, even though the movie sucked, he'd still get most of the praise from the movie. A diamond in the rough.

[pat_burke 0]

Hey Neil. I thought these types of 'versus' threads were frowned upon...especially between the two masters.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So far this has been a very positive thread, I expecxted a lot of Goldsmith-bashing.

But a lot of JWFANNER's seem to reconize that Jerry Goldsmith can still outcompose John Williams even though all that's left of him is a cancer-ridden, maggot infested cadaver...

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

How thoughtful.

Polls are pretty much useless, as they present it as a contest. The discussion in this thread is a bit more useful.

[pat_burke 0]

Dutch humour?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Rather blunt, if you ask me. Must be a Cosman thing.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Perhaps Neil was right.

I have slumbered in idle dotage to long.

No more.