What's So Great About Michael Giacchino?

[filmscore5 0]

In response to which composers have generated such a variety of output early on in their careers, I think no composer comes close to Jerry Goldsmith. He was a true chameleon, and although I know this will cause some riffs with members in here, I personally believe that Goldsmith wrote circles around John Williams. But Johnny had two things that Jerry didn't; 1) the realization that 19th century Romanticism was the easiest way to connect with audiences, hence Williams' much more connected themes and harmonies to famous 19th century works, and 2) was the composer on a great deal many more movies that the Academy put up for major awards than Goldsmith was. Jerry resented Williams more and more towards the end of his life, always wondering while Williams was getting all the major pictures that he was not, which is too bad, as they used to be good enough friends to play some 4 hand piano at Jerry's house on the weekends, many times with various others such as Henry Mancini (who were eventually replaced with friends James Newton Howard, David Newman and Charlie Fox).

For me, any comparison of potential talent and chops always goes back to Jerry. So, how does Giacchino fare here? Well, he doesn't, not even close. But this is unfair to him, as even composers like Jerry and Johnny needed time to develop, although in their cases, not much time at all. Especially in the case of Goldsmith, as his first few features were astounding.

You gotta' give it to Williams though, 45 dang nominations. Boo yah.

[King Mark 3,631]

I didn't know Goldsmith hated Williams

K.M.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Neither does filmscore5.

[filmscore5 0]

I never said Goldsmith hated Williams, read the post. I used the word 'resented.' That's a world of a difference. And Stefancos, please don't presume to know what I know about Jerry. Not that it matters, but I studied with Jerry for 2 years, and also studied with his very best friend, Charles Fox. Again, this doesn't matter, but it would be cool if you didn't presume to know what I know. Peace.

[QMM 4]

Max

[Miz 139]

In response to which composers have generated such a variety of output early on in their careers, I think no composer comes close to Jerry Goldsmith.

Do you have any examples to support that point? I've decided I can't think of anybody who's shown such versatility so early in their careers other than Giacchino. Here's why...

The Medal of Honor series offered a hotbed of themes to play with, but we have more than just action music spanning 3 albums (and plenty more games); the action is constantly varied (combat, chase, horror, chaos) but there's also war hymns, stately theme presentation, tension, underscore and more.

Call of Duty, for me, IS Giacchino's sound. Far removed from MoH (or anything else, for that matter) and perfect for it's game, this score may not be easy on the ears but it's special. He bridged this harsh atonal assault and weaving thematic symphony deftly with Secret Weapons Over Normandy(which remains my favourite overall album for the past year).

He takes the atonal flavour of CoD and brings it down a notch for the superb Lost: weird instrumentation, modest themes (re-iterated in so many ways) and perfect mood setting make this different to any score, to anything, I've ever heard.

This was, of course, before Alias. I'm not familiar with these scores, save a few tracks, but I know he dabbles in electronics, and I know he Gets It Right. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Then we have The Incredibles - ignored as derivative by some (who miss the point) - but surely an example of skill at writing that Barry-esque spy music. And I've not heard The Family Stone, and if I'm honest I don't know what a good rom-com score sounds like, but hey...he's done one of those too, now!

And this is why I look forward to Mission Impossible 3. I just know we're going to get the best score we possibly could get for this film (and the best for the series, by far), because of the skills he's proven and styles he's worked with. Naysayers, ignore...fans, imagine if you will, the best bits of The Incredibles, Alias and Medal of Honor in an action-packed, intelligent, responsive and modern score. *salivates*

[Erik Woods 555]

I heard this from a colleague of John Lasseter (then VP of Pixar).

Well, it's 110% pure bullshit!

-Erik-

[QMM 4]

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Too lazy to type lately, huh?

[Ollie 1,059]

In regards to Goldsmith, for whatever reason, be it the way movies are made these days or lack of interest on his part, his music became very streamlined and nowhere as textured as he used to write. He also choose alot of poor projects to work on and I will admit he was screwed over by the academy from time to time.

I think Williams has stayed near the top of his game which has allowed him to receive the critical claim and awards.

[QMM 4]

Too lazy to type lately, huh?

A little

[filmscore5 0]

Well, it's 110% pure bullshit!

Well, then I guess you know more than the VP of Pixar.

[Erik Woods 555]

Well, it's 110% pure bullshit!

Well, then I guess you know more than the VP of Pixar.

Yup... I do! And what you posted was absolute made up rubbish.

-Erik-

[filmscore5 0]

Perhaps you should work for Pixar then, as it seems the VP is a liar. Pehaps his motivation for making that up is to smear Michael Giacchino, who helped make The Incredibles one of the most successful movies of the last 20 years. It all makes sense now; make up stories about those who help you make money. Or maybe he doesn't like making money so he's trying to make sure that the team on The Incredibles doesn't make money for him ever again.

Whatever the case may be, I think that you should take over Pixar, as you are more in the know than the VP.

[Erik Woods 555]

Perhaps you should work for Pixar then, as it seems the VP is a liar.  Pehaps his motivation for making that up is to smear Michael Giacchino, who helped make The Incredibles one of the most successful movies of the last 20 years.  It all makes sense now; make up stories about those who help you make money.  Or maybe he doesn't like making money so he's trying to make sure that the team on The Incredibles doesn't make money for him ever again.

Whatever the case may be, I think that you should take over Pixar, as you are more in the know than the VP.

Look, Michael told me himself that the story is bullshit!

-Erik-

[filmscore5 0]

My congratulations to you.

[Erik Woods 555]

My congratulations to you.

Thank you!

-Erik-

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Hahaha, what a delightful turn of events.

I thought this thread was resurrected, but then I realised it was just merged with the "overrated" thread. Whatever.

[David Coscina 3]

I think the animosity towards Giacchino is mostly because some posters laud him as the next Williams or young JOhn Williams. I don't think that's a fair comparison as even John Williams at Giacchino's current age wasn't the John Williams that wrote Star Wars, Jaws, E.T. Raiders, CEoT3K, etc. Some of Giacchino's video game scores sound like they were inspired by Williams' '80s work but nothing more than a superificial resemblance.

There's a couple LOST podcasts where they interview Giacchino and what is quite encouraging is his love and preference towards orchestral music, not synths. I think we can all agree that the proliferation of Media Ventures composers has had a somewhat homogenous effect on lots of music coming out of Hollywood these days. Back in the Golden Age, Rosza didn't sound like Herrmann who didn't sound like Korngold etc. The Silver Age had plenty of diversity too.

I hope there are more composers out there like Giacchino or Ed Shearmur or Marco Beltrami who do have their own styles. Better that they get more assignments than the Zimmers/Rabins/Gregson Williams/Jablonsky's/etc. etc. of the world.

[David Coscina 3]

Tim Simonec is his conductor. I would prefer he was the conductor, like williams, but nearly half of more important composers from Hollywood do not conduct their scores.

Elliot Goldenthal also doesn't conduct any of his music and I'd say he's one of the best of the mid-40s group of composers (more eclectic than Elfman, better at modernist orchestration than JN HOward)

In regards to Goldsmith, for whatever reason, be it the way movies are made these days or lack of interest on his part, his music became very streamlined and nowhere as textured as he used to write. He also choose alot of poor projects to work on and I will admit he was screwed over by the academy from time to time.

I think Williams has stayed near the top of his game which has allowed him to receive the critical claim and awards.

Mark, your observations are spot on IMO. Goldsmith could write with the best of them from 1960-1990s. Somewhere in there, probably after Total Recall, his style became streamlined and his harmonic tapestry much more reliant on pop chord progressions and more triadic frameworks. I attribute this to two things: 1/ his agent got him some pretty horid projects and 2/ his overuse of MIDI in his compositional process. Williams still writes at the piano and as such isn't chained to a metronome. This is why much of MV stuff also sounds mechanical and forced. Very little meter changes and such. Goldsmith was the KING of dropping in extra beats in the '70s, changing up tempi and meters all over the place like his hero Stravinsky. Listen to "Over the Edge" from First Blood and compare that to "The Edge". Both are very good scores, but the latter has less contrapuntal textures and more of an emphasis on the "big recurring theme". The action cues are also more static, relying on varying percussion textures alternating with those low portamento trombone lines. First Blood has fervent string passages, pounding low piano figures, and plenty of tempo changes that accompany the meter changes making it much more exciting (IMO).

As for Giacchino, he does have a style. Those quick spiccato string licks populate much of his ALIAS and LOST work. He also has a real sense of cohesion in his television work, moreso than any other composer I can think of. The recurring motives and themes that get variation in the successive shows is amazing. There's a great string version of Hurley's theme that plays over some great parallel action in LOST (Season 2) that just blew me away. I hadn't heard/seen a better marriage of visual and music mediums in television since....well, ever before. This kind of symbiotic relationship can only be compared to some great montages in film to my mind.

I know the score for LOST season 1 is on its way but I cannot wait until Season 2 is released!

[A24 4,331]

Mark, your observations are spot on IMO.  Goldsmith could write with the best of them from 1960-1990s.  Somewhere in there, probably after Total Recall, his style became streamlined and his harmonic tapestry much more reliant on pop chord progressions and more triadic frameworks.  I attribute this to two things: 1/ his agent got him some pretty horid projects and 2/ his overuse of MIDI in his compositional process.  Williams still writes at the piano and as such isn't chained to a metronome.  This is why much of MV stuff also sounds mechanical and forced.  Very little meter changes and such.  Goldsmith was the KING of dropping in extra beats in the '70s, changing up tempi and meters all over the place like his hero Stravinsky.  Listen to "Over the Edge" from First Blood and compare that to "The Edge".  Both are very good scores, but the latter has less contrapuntal textures and more of an emphasis on the "big recurring theme".  

Of all film composers, I'm always impressed by Williams' natural flow. That's a very hard thing to do when composing (especially when dealing with MIDI - you can hear Williams writes the old-fashioned way).

And talk about strange beats, Alex North "beats" them all.

About Giacchino, I really think he's doing a perfect job with 'Lost'. I especially like the chaos brass chord he uses to accentuate the "enigma moments". Scary!

Alex

[King Mark 3,631]

lack of interest on his part, his music became very streamlined and nowhere as textured as he used to write.  choose s.

Yeah,just listen to Poltergeist and Secret of NiHM(or anything from 1980-1983),and compare them to late 90's stuff like Air Force One .

K.M.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

lack of interest on his part, his music became very streamlined and nowhere as textured as he used to write.  choose s.

Yeah,just listen to Poltergeist and Secret of NiHM(or anything from 1980-1983),and compare them to late 90's stuff like Air Force One .

K.M.

IMHO the more interesting half of AFO is the one McNeely wrote. HE took the Goldsmith theme, the Goldsmith sound, and did some amazing things with it.

[A24 4,331]

Film music is getting more and more streamlined. Producers don't want to disturb the audience's appetite for harmless "entertainment". Goldsmith is only adapting himself to the wishes of the broad public. In the 60s and 70s, Goldsmith could sneak in several comtemporary, modernistic moments into his scores. It seems that people weren't even afraid of a few jazz chords by Jerry Fielding either. These composers were educating their audience. It was a fascinating time.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[David Coscina 3]

True Alex. Many listeners (and directors) regard Williams' music as "over the top". I worked on a film with e director who said she hated Williams' music- all of it. Big surprise I ended up getting taken off the project. It was no great loss because this was a short Toronto indie film and the music she ended up going with was incredibly bereft of anything I would call musical. But it is alarming at the number of lower level directors who don't want music to be an actual character in their films. They just like it to be window dressing and non obtrusive windo dressing at that. While I can understand this ideology, being a composer myself, I never could embrace it and after a short series of film scoring projects, I became disenchanted with scoring Toronto-based films because no one wanted to actually have a musical underscore. Just crappy synth textures and meandering lines. I knew that if I stuck with it, I would become a better film composer but a worse music composer. And music always comes first!

[Ollie 1,059]

Once Williams steps down there really isn't going to be much to look forward to.

I barely buy any scores written these days, most of them have been from years past.

[David Coscina 3]

You know Mark, I'm in the same boat as many probably are. Considering the variety we had in the 70s, 80s and even 90s we're in a bit of a film score "depression" era right now and have been since 2000 (IMO). And I don't ascribe it to composers not writing busy enough music either. There's plenty of bombast and fast writing abounding everywhere. It's something else....

I have been listening to Akira Ifukube's DaiMajin trilogy these past few days. The writing isn't that complex but it's compelling, interesting work. One, it's quite melodic. there's something to latch onto there. and Ifukube's use of colors and alternate playing techniques enhanced his music. I mean, having a contrabassoon close-mic'd with bass clarinet and low brass was a great way of describing Majin's size and wrath. It's perfect. And his tragic theme that occurs in all 3 scores (the alternating minor I to diminished VII chord) is so evocative.

Anyhow, I think Giacchino holds so much promise because he thinks in melodic terms so it's easy to latch onto his music. I just listened to a small Marco Beltrami score and while he's got compositional chops abounding, it's evident that his schooling was from the 20th century modernist realm where texture was more important than melody because there's nothing compelling about that particular score. And I would say he's a good composer.

Williams shines because amidst all the coloristic devices his employs, the virtuosic string runs, the complex harmonic extensions, and wonderful contrapuntal textures, there's almost always a salient melody. Is this the only way to score movies? No. But I think something's been lost when most of what's coming out of Hollywood is nonsensical textures rather than music the encompasses ALL of the fundaments of music including harmony, melody, rhythm and orchestration. Giacchino isn't the best but to me, he represents the best hope for his age group who will hold up the tradition that Williams himself has taken up from guys like Korngold, Herrmann, Rosza, Newman (Alfred) etc.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Its sad Golsmith blamed Williams and no the directors of the movies.

Coulnt he have asked for certain movies?

Williams does not do all the good movies...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

the talked resentment some posts above.

[nightscape94 965]

I thought Goldsmith and Williams were friends. I had never read Jerry blasting John for any reason, can you give a link or reference or something?

Tim

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Ask the guy who studied with Jerry 2 years.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

It's one of those urban myths, probably brought up because Goldsmith regularly scored films that were derivative of big JW-scored hits I think.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Oh, the guy who we do not know by name, nor have any idea who he is and if he's lying to us?

I would not go by his word.

[Ollie 1,059]

Oh I'm sure Jerry probably felt he should be scoring better films and as I posted above I believe he was passed over for a few Oscars.

In thinking about his projects the following thoughts came to my mind:

Instead of scoring Star Trek V he should have had IV or VI.

What if John McTeirnan had asked him to score Die Hard?

It's been mentioned he wanted Field Of Dreams why didn't he get it?

People have mentioned Goldsmith could be a grouch, maybe that hurt him.

Is it his fault that directors like Joe Dante suddenly went in box office slump?

What if his relationship with Ridley Scott hadn't soured? Could you imagine a Goldsmith score to Blade Runner, Thelma & Louise or even Gladiator?

He could have had a hit with The Mummy Returns but it's been said his experience on The Mummy was bad.

If you look at his filmography he actually scored his share of hits, granted not the $300 million films but not too bad.

[filmscore5 0]

Oh, the guy who we do not know by name, nor have any idea who he is and if he's lying to us?

I would not go by his word.

I wasn't aware that I had to divulge my name, rank and file to be taken seriously in this forum. I guess keeping to yourself is perceived as deception and lying to some people. My apologies for keeping to myself.

I thought Goldsmith and Williams were friends.  I had never read Jerry blasting John for any reason, can you give a link or reference or something?  

You're right on, Jerry never blasted John Williams in public nor in private, at least to my knowledge. I do know through various comments by Jerry made to me and others that he thought his composition chops were more advanced than Williams. This wasn't an isolated thing, as I heard him say numerous times in reference to his teacher Mario Castelnuovo-Tedesco; "He was such a sweet man, but he wasn't really a good composer." I only mention things as it applies to Williams because of the nature of this forum.

Look for a book to come out in the next 12 months about film music by composer Paul Chihara. He was a fairly close friend to Jerry, and perhaps there might be some references to Jerry's very humble frustration throughout his unbelievable career. Who knows if any of these things will be in reference to Williams even if they show up in the book, as this is guesswork on my part based on what I have heard.

Anyhow, I wouldn't dare taint the image of one of the late, great composers of the last 100 years.

[AI 0]

Oh, the guy who we do not know by name, nor have any idea who he is and if he's lying to us?

I would not go by his word.

I wasn't aware that I had to divulge my name, rank and file to be taken seriously in this forum. I guess keeping to yourself is perceived as deception and lying to some people. My apologies for keeping to myself.

You are seeing a whole team of psychiatrists, aren't you....

Cut the lying mate, you have already been exposed by Erik Woods, who actually has total credibility here as a Giacchino source.

[filmscore5 0]

I couldn't care less about his reliability as a Giacchino source. I was simply relaying what I had heard from some people at Pixar. Who the hell am I to assume what people tell me isn't all true?

I guess I could just have no faith in people, assume that everyone is a liar and flex my machissmo muscles when I claim to know something more than someone else. I've found that there are a few people in this forum like that already. No offense, but these qualities don't strike me as very philanthropic. I prefer to assume I know nothing while attending the circus so I can eat cotton candy and dance with midgets.

[David Coscina 3]

filmscore5, I think the internet is rife with people who fancy themselves as authorities more than people who actually are in the know. Hence, there's a lot of sceptics out there. I wouldn't fault the folks on this board for being suspicious especially when you post under a pseudonym (although I do too so who am I to talk?).

That said, I for one believe you but I'm also disappointed in Goldsmith's comments if they really are accurate. From a purely technical point of view, I don't think Williams is inferior to Goldsmith nor was he ever. His writing is far more contrapuntally complex and his harmonic idiom more challenging. The only area of music that Goldsmith had on Johnny was in 20th century modernism and dissonant writing. It seemed more natural for Goldsmith to write in an atonal framework whereas Williams, up until lately, always seemed uncomfortable with outright atonality. That's just my perspective but I truly believe that.

[A24 4,331]

From a purely technical point of view, I don't think Williams is inferior to Goldsmith nor was he ever.  His writing is far more contrapuntally complex and his harmonic idiom more challenging.  The only area of music that Goldsmith had on Johnny was in 20th century modernism and dissonant writing.  It seemed more natural for Goldsmith to write in an atonal framework whereas Williams, up until lately, always seemed uncomfortable with outright atonality.  That's just my perspective but I truly believe that.

I agree with you completely, David.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well said.

[Salacius 7]

attending the circus so I can eat cotton candy and dance with midgets.

Now THAT would be one hell of a night out!!!!!!!!