How come Williams never had a score rejected?

[Sandor 459]

Just wondering. I mean; it has happened to the greatest film composers (Jerry Goldsmith, Ennio Morricone, Elmer Bernstein, etc.). Why never to Williams I wonder. Luck? Or something else. Perhaps Williams can truly meet the director's (and studio's) demands.

What do you think?

[Incanus 5,519]

I have been wondering the same thing about Williams too. His scores have never been rejected and what in the world could be the reason. He has himself written scores to replace somebody else's music (e.g. A Man who loved Cat Dancing and Rosewood of the top of my head) and of course Williams replace David Arnold in Patriot after Arnold's demo material was not good enough for Emmerich). It might be that Williams is so dependable and flexible that he conforms to the needs of the directors and studios so well there has never been any reason top reject his scores. The flexibility surely shows in his statements about film scoring. Or he has so much influence and he commands such respect in Hollywood they do not dare to reject his scores

It is very odd since many big names in movie music that Roald mentioned have gotten their work replaced. The lastest big score being Shore's King Kong.

Williams is a brilliant composer and he seems to be getting on well with most of his collaborators. His personality seems so amiable that I have hard time imagining him fighting with the directors over the score. Though we do not see behind the facades and do not know about the arguments or disagreements between directors and composers that often.

Well it is a testament to Williams graciousness and good connections and of course his massive skills as a composer and luck that his scores never have been replaced. Williams has the trust of the directors that he delivers quality music to any picture.

[MSM 85]

I remember that at least one his scores was rejected and scored by someone else. Then in his early ages I am sure more of his scores have been rejected, scores that we don't even know that they exist.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

He's a god, of course. He's the most powerful of the System Lords.

[Incanus 5,519]

He's a god, of course.  He's the most powerful of the System Lords.

My thoughts exactly! He is Dominus atque Deus of Film music.

[Luke Skywalker 1,285]

I remember that at least one his scores was rejected and scored by someone else. Then in his early ages I am sure more of his scores have been rejected, scores that we don't even know that they exist.

I think i read somewhere about his earlier scores.

BUt surely are we dont even know those movies

But nobody knew really... Miguel?

Anyway, as a young composer it is normal some of his scores could have been rejected, but as a stablished composer, he never has, unlike those mentioned...

[AC1 3,565]

I remember that at least one his scores was rejected and scored by someone else. Then in his early ages I am sure more of his scores have been rejected

That's your inner "Indepedence Day" talking, mister. Williams doesn't recall any rejections (changes, yes, rejections, no).

[AC1 3,565]

I have been wondering the same thing about Williams too. His scores have never been rejected and what in the world could be the reason. He has himself written scores to replace somebody else's music (e.g. A Man who loved Cat Dancing and Rosewood of the top of my head) and of course Williams replace David Arnold in Patriot after Arnold's demo material was not good enough for Emmerich). It might be that Williams is so dependable and flexible that he conforms to the needs of the directors and studios so well there has never been any reason top reject his scores. The flexibility surely shows in his statements about film scoring. Or he has so much influence and he commands such respect in Hollywood they do not dare to reject his scores    

It is very odd since many big names in movie music that Roald mentioned have gotten their work replaced. The lastest big score being Shore's King Kong.  

Williams is a brilliant composer and he seems to be getting on well with most of his collaborators. His personality seems so amiable that I have hard time imagining him fighting with the directors over the score. Though we do not see behind the facades and do not know about the arguments or disagreements between directors and composers that often.

Well it is a testament to Williams graciousness and good connections and of course his massive skills as a composer and luck that his scores never have been replaced. Williams has the trust of the directors that he delivers quality music to any picture.

Very well put, Incanus!

[Olivier 5]

Probably also because he's been mostly working for 30 years with directors who care about film music, know what they want movie and music-wise (even if Lucas does tweak things around), hence ideal conditions to work.

Goldsmith never had any problem with Schaffner, Verhoeven, Dante, ...

I'm not sure, but, off the top of my head, rejections mostly occur with first or second-time collaborations, precisely because the directors & compsoers don't know each other that well.

Beside, people know what to expect from Williams, and those who hire such composers as Williams, Goldsmith, Bernstein, ..., usually aren't those that would rather have silly songs & techno in their movie, thus, are not likely to replace them.

[MSM 85]

I remember that at least one his scores was rejected and scored by someone else. Then in his early ages I am sure more of his scores have been rejected

That's your inner "Indepedence Day" talking, mister. Williams doesn't recall any rejections (changes, yes, rejections, no).

Now you say it, indeed Williams was replaced as Emmerich's house composer in favor of David Arnold. But I meant another movie, from 1970's or something.

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

Wasn't it the other way around?

[Romão 1,931]

Williams has said in an interview (and I'm listening to it right now) that he "fortunely, I've never had a score rejected".

[Luke Skywalker 1,285]

But then Across the stars is the 1st love theme in SW too.

Well, chronologically... it is. :roll:

[Ollie 859]

Well I think Williams is selective on what projects he takes, he is probably not cheap when it comes to salary, most of the directors he works with seem to have control of their pictures, having him attached to your film almost guarantees you at least one Oscar nomination.

[Romão 1,931]

That, plus that he is so damn good.

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

Several reasons. He's good, and generally probably considered the single best by the part of the population that knows of the existence of film composers. Also, the quality of his output is consistent. For many years, he's mostly scored movies for people he's either worked with repeatedly, or who really wanted to work with him. I doubt a studio would fire him without a REALLY good reason, they'd rather have him write a replacement score for some other rejection. And finally, perhaps, he's also more predictable than for example Goldsmith, some of whose rejections happened because they went further than what the directors and/or studios expected and wanted.

Marian -

Ben-Hur (Carl Davis)

[benefactor 3]

Miguel Andrade quote from Film Score Monthly forum:

In an interview, Andre Previn, refering to Ann-Margret's the Swinger, refered they both were rejected... The film only includes a song, the title one, by teh Previns (Dori and Andre) and conducted by John Williams

So, he actually was rejected once?

Even Williams probably forgot about this one!

[Luke Skywalker 1,285]

Williams was the conductor of some Previn's works i think.

Like valley of the dolls.

So his music was not rejected, just his direction...

[Miguel Andrade 964]

Williams as stated more than once that it comes with the territory having a score rejected. To my knowledge, he never had a fully socre rejected, only cues that either needed re-arranging, or sometimes, even a complete diferent feel to them -- meaning a full new composition. We have that with The Fury's Death on the carousel and on Star Wars' Binary sunset, just to pick a couple of ocasions.

The reason he never ahd a score thown out, as I see it are, first of all, because he understand the demands of film composing. There isn't such a thing as artistic divergences. The film belongs to the director and eventually, the producer, and his their call to judge if this or that piece of music is apropiated. If a composer can accept this, he surelly won't have a score rejected, and if he's really intelligent, and feels that the diferent direction won't hurt the fianl film, he can come up with soemthing both true to his vision and the one of the director and producer.

Williams surelly can do that, and can also write in so many diferent styles, while remaining faithful to his own inner and personal musical voice.

Secondly, any rejection would have to happen earlier in his carrer for several reasons... for one, he's so hightly payed that a producer would have to think twice before throwing out such an expensive score. And surelly, Williams name also carries a really big weight -- he's probably the only film composer everyone knows! We talk about the two otehr masters of his generation -- Goldsmith and Bernstein -- but as famous as they might be, thye can't compare to the popular appeal fo John Williams -- bot the man and his music. Remember that Williams became a very well known musician upon accepting his Boston Pops job. And as mentioned by someone above, he is such a nice, easy going guy, that is hard someone not to like him -- including the Hollywood directors and producers.

In fact, one could see how he's important, as he was able to get the Angela's Ashes job, just because he wanted it.

And finally, I think that most people hire him with a very precise idea of what he can come up with -- and he knows that.

Regarding the score for The Swinger, the only evidence of rejection was the one on the interview I mentioned at FSM. Other than that I've only been able to find out that Previn work, which was arranged and conducted by Williams was thrown out, with the exception of the title song.

The only thing that may really mean a Williams rejected score is based on the same unconfirmed rumor that Previn did really little composing on Valley of the Dolls, and that Williams ended up doing a lot of ghost writting for his close friend. If that happened in The Swinger -- and this is only speculation, as the Valley of the Dolls rumor as never been confirmed -- then would have had one rejection as a ghost writter.

[Incanus 5,519]

Williams as stated more than once that it comes with the territory having a score rejected. To my knowledge, he never had a fully socre rejected, only cues that either needed re-arranging, or sometimes, even a complete diferent feel to them -- meaning a full new composition. We have that with The Fury's Death on the carousel and on Star Wars' Binary sunset, just to pick a couple of ocasions.

The reason he never ahd a score thown out, as I see it are, first of all, because he understand the demands of film composing. There isn't such a thing as artistic divergences. The film belongs to the director and eventually, the producer, and his their call to judge if this or that piece of music is apropiated. If a composer can accept this, he surelly won't have a score rejected, and if he's really intelligent, and feels that the diferent direction won't hurt the fianl film, he can come up with soemthing both true to his vision and the one of the director and producer.

Williams surelly can do that, and can also write in so many diferent styles, while remaining faithful to his own inner and personal musical voice.  

Secondly, any rejection would have to happen earlier in his carrer for several reasons... for one, he's so hightly payed that a producer would have to think twice before throwing out such an expensive score. And surelly, Williams name also carries a really big weight -- he's probably the only film composer everyone knows! We talk about the two otehr masters of his generation -- Goldsmith and Bernstein -- but as famous as they might be, thye can't compare to the popular appeal fo John Williams -- bot the man and his music. Remember that Williams became a very well known musician upon accepting his Boston Pops job. And as mentioned by someone above, he is such a nice, easy going guy, that is hard someone not to like him -- including the Hollywood directors and producers.  

In fact, one could see how he's important, as he was able to get the Angela's Ashes job, just because he wanted it.

And finally, I think that most people hire him with a very precise idea of what he can come up with -- and he knows that.

Regarding the score for The Swinger, the only evidence of rejection was the one on the interview I mentioned at FSM. Other than that I've only been able to find out that Previn work, which was arranged and conducted by Williams was thrown out, with the exception of the title song.  

The only thing that may really mean a Williams rejected score is based on the same unconfirmed rumor that Previn did really little composing on Valley of the Dolls, and that Williams ended up doing a lot of ghost writting for his close friend. If that happened in The Swinger -- and this is only speculation, as the Valley of the Dolls rumor as never been confirmed -- then would have had one rejection as a ghost writter.

You make very good points (as usual) and I agree with your reasoning.

[Miguel Andrade 964]

Regarding the topic of directors and producers musical choices, I can tell you that already as early as the early 70's, Williams was critic of them. And as much he didn't liked or care for some of htis choices, I think he naturally accepted tham as somehting you have to do while working on film, manly in Hollywood.

[Luke Skywalker 1,285]

If that happened in The Swinger -- and this is only speculation, as the Valley of the Dolls rumor as never been confirmed -- then would have had one rejection as a ghost writter.

Still, one cue, the Main title nevertheless, still remians. So its not your typical rejected score.

Phew!

[Miguel Andrade 964]

If that happened in The Swinger -- and this is only speculation, as the Valley of the Dolls rumor as never been confirmed -- then would have had one rejection as a ghost writter.

Still, one cue, the Main title nevertheless, still remians. So its not your typical rejected score.

Phew!

You know, I never saw the film. So I can't really tell about the music in the film, except fromt eh one on the LP. Nevertheless, the credit I know of list music by Marty Paich and songs by Previn.

[pixie_twinkle 44]

The most obvious and irritating instance of Williams having his music replaced at the last minute is the ballroom (or balloon/whatever) scene in Witches of Eastwick. Williams wrote a beautiful original piece for that scene, one which can only now be heard in its entirety on the soundtrack CD. It was replaced at the last minute by Puccini's Nessun Dorma. Of course this has since backfired on the director. Now whenever that scene comes up the audience doesn't think of love and sleeping, they think of the 1990 football world cup theme! HAHAHA!

Seriously though, I think Williams' composition deserves more recognition. It really should be performed as a concert piece! It's one of the most beautiful themes ever written, calling to mind Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun at its climax. Oo-er missus.

[Miguel Andrade 964]

The most obvious and irritating instance of Williams having his music replaced at the last minute is the ballroom (or balloon/whatever) scene in Witches of Eastwick. Williams wrote a beautiful original piece for that scene, one which can only now be heard in its entirety on the soundtrack CD. It was replaced at the last minute by Puccini's Nessun Dorma. Of course this has since backfired on the director. Now whenever that scene comes up the audience doesn't think of love and sleeping, they think of the 1990 football world cup theme! HAHAHA!

Seriously though, I think Williams' composition deserves more recognition. It really should be performed as a concert piece! It's one of the most beautiful themes ever written, calling to mind Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun at its climax. Oo-er missus.

Actually, Williams did prepared a suite with two pieces from that score, the first being the Ballroom sequence and the second, the Devils Dance. He recored it in 1988 with the Boston Pops.

[Romão 1,931]

It's on the album Salute to Hollywood.

And it is a fantastic piece, indeed.

[Damo 0]

John Williams is like the number one best film composer in the world. George Lucas or Speilberg when they not quite happy some parts of the score, usually tell Williams to rewrite those parts of the score until they happy with it.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Yes, it was really a travesty that "The Ballroom Scene" was replaced by some crummy opera. Possibly the most tragically romantic theme ever written for a film.

Ray Barnsbury

[matmilne 0]

reasons i think mr williams doesn't have his scores rejected;

1) he's a great composer with a lot of experience so that a studio is not going to hire him for the sake of it, they'll hire him for the sorts of sounds he can create

2)the finished product is likely to be the result of many attempts (like rachmaninoff constantly ripping pages out and coming back to the thing weeks later)

3) he's perhaps a very flexible scorer who produces the score a movie company wants without the snobbish academic attitude that's normally present in a musician

4) it's john williams for crying out loud, oscar winning, you're not going to want to loose out on that sort of publicity and power.

5) he works very hard.

or

6) everyone else on their list was busy

[Jeshopk 8]

I think Williams is very careful who he works with. Always was, even before he could afford to be. Who knows, maybe he had some rejected music in his television days. Also, the mafia doesn't let Williams get rejected. Kind of like Sinatra's rise to fame.

[Miguel Andrade 964]

reasons i think mr williams doesn't have his scores rejected;

1) he's a great composer with a lot of experience so that a studio is not going to hire him for the sake of it, they'll hire him for the sorts of sounds he can create

Williams can come up with very diferent sounds, depeding of the nature of the film, while remaining true to his own inner voice.

2)the finished product is likely to be the result of many attempts (like rachmaninoff constantly ripping pages out and coming back to the thing weeks later)

Williams stated time and again that he does a lot of re-writting, but he can hardly have the luxury of coming back to it weeks later. A couple of days, a best...

3) he's perhaps a very flexible scorer who produces the score a movie company wants without the snobbish academic attitude that's normally present in a musician

Of course he is... he his a film composer, he has to be flexible. And I don't think musicians are snobish. There are some who are, just like in every other possible ocupation you can think of.

4) it's john williams for crying out loud, oscar winning, you're not going to want to loose out on that sort of publicity and power.

So what? He is obviously powerful in his business, and his name surelly comand a lot of respect, but in the end he's just the composer. No one really respect the composer... Maybe Spielberg and some few others, but for the most part, no one really cares all that much, be it John Williams, or the guy who lives on the house next to us.

5) he works very hard.

or

6) everyone else on their list was busy

Every composer, if he wants to get something working, works very hard, but if Williams was rejected, or for that sake, if anyone else was rejected, there would be a lot of guys available to re-score.

Take this example: Everyone loved and respected Bernie Herrmann, even if he was such a unpleasent carachter. When his theme for The twilight Zone was rejected, even someone like Jerry Goldsmith, who was a close friend, wrote a new theme upon request from the producer.

That's the way it works. I understand that rejection is very hard on ones life, everyone has felt it at some point of ones life, but it comes witht he territory, and if a film composer can't live with it, better moove to another musical field -- were, by the way, rejections will happen just the same.

In fact the only sort of rejection of a Williams score, was with his concert song cycle, "Seven for Luck". It was to be premiered back in 1997, by Kathleen Battle, but she found it to be to of a hard piece to be performed, even more since it come form a film composer... The work was permiered the follwing year by Cynthia Haymon.

[matmilne 0]

look, i can only speak from my own experience, only 8 months long, i know, but in that time i have scored or been asked to score for 38 clients (including 9 hollywood movies) all i can say from my side of the bench is that the good directors, the ones who actually care for the music in their film, will shop around for the right composer with the right sound, it saves a lot of time and money if you don't have to hire someone else halfway through.

[JWfangirl1992 18]

Why his score was bever rejected thats kinda a stupid question, he is a musical god. He is lke WOW! DUH

[matmilne 0]

beerchug

i'll drink to that