We are witness to John Williams declining ability.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Case in point,

Star Wars Ep. III. Much of it is a rework of Star Wars, clearly. While the Star Wars music was obviously better than any of the new music in Ep. III, it was not appropriate to the films needs or structure.

Then we get War of the Worlds, a film that was hit or miss with many people, (a hit with me), but the score was awful. It was not listenable.

Now after listening to the midi of Memoirs, not to mention the hits and misses of the last 10 years, its obvious that the Maestro is like the recently deceased Jerry Goldsmith, out of ideas, burnt out and falling towards a level of mediocrity that is frightening to behold. Its like watching Jordan's umpteenth comeback attempt when he no longer had it.

The parrallel we are seeing between the two is facinating, but sad.

Perhaps its time for John to retire from scoring, and let the baton pass on to a new generation, far less capable but...

somewhere out there there is someone who will rise to a new challege, and inspire a new generation of film music fans, perhaps even someone here.

[Lurker 5]

Now after listening to the midi of Memoirs, not to mention the hits and misses of the last 10 years, its obvious that the Maestro is like the recently deceased Jerry Goldsmith, out of ideas, burnt out and falling towards a level of mediocrity that is frightening to behold.

Neil

[Sandor 796]

[Sandor 796]

Star Wars Ep. III. Much of it is a rework of Star Wars, clearly.

What like 5 minutes? I stopped taking your post serious after this.

[Trumpeteer 302]

If Episode 3 were a reworking of "Star Wars," it would have been a much better film and score.

[Sandor 796]

EPISODE III CAME OUT HALF A YEAR AGO!!!

Get over it!

[Greg1138 3]

Sorry Joe.....I have a lot of respect for you, your attitudes and your opinions, but I'm afraid this time I think you're full of it......

[ymenard 54]

Wow that's amazing... John did a version of Star Wars with a.... Star Wars style!!!!!!!!!!!1

So you would have liked Episode 3 to be scored similar to Heartbeeps???? :micro:

[deimos 0]

Not as good as he used to be, I could agree.

Mediocre, by no means.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Meh, Joe did this before RotS too. It wasn't amusing then either.

Ray Barnsbury - who will agree that this year has been more a miss than a hit for ol' J Dubb

[JoeinAR 1,949]

ok, some of you need to untighten the noose, and lets some air into your brains.

First Roald, the endtitle is what, 15 minutes, and much of it is pure Star Wars (a new hope for some of you helpless to figure it out types), not just the main theme. John was out of ideas, or so tired of the subject that he could not do any better. As for it coming out half a year ago, get over yourself, as its been the dominate new score of this year, simply because War of the Worlds was so unworthy of much of our time.

Now of to dranemy, no Ep. III, wasn't written with a Star Wars style, he's not written any of the sequels or prequels with the same style as Star Wars, so next.

Greg1138 sorry, but did I touch a nerve, did this make you think on some level, obviously it did.

[Greg1138 3]

Sorry Joe....again, much as I respect your attitude and opinions, I really don't think you've yet let "21st Century Williams" into your heart, your ears, or indeed your head yet.....

Yes - the recent scores are different, but thank God for that - otherwise we would be whinging like hell about how little he has changed....

He has not hit the dizzy heights of his heyday in the last few years - I don't think anyone will argue with that - but albums like War of the Worlds, The Terminal and - yep - Episode III (though less so) obviously need to spend far more time on your CD player/PC than they are doing already.....

[Incanus 5,713]

How sad you are losing faith in Williams and and in your opinion he writes only crap these days. But you have to the right to feel disappointed. My respect for Williams has grown over the years and I love his music now more than ever (yes even the new millenium output). I do not see any decline only change in his style and sensibilities of film scoring itself. And do not say I am blind Williams fan boy (which I may sound some times) who praises all his work. I admit not all his output has been utterly brilliant but to me his music is better than any other composer's working in Hollywood today. What is the thing you would have him write? Another Hook or SW perhaps? I think his mucial style has changed but his abilities as a composer have grown many fold over the years.

I think directors should also challenge him to break into new areas and explore new musical possibilities. Too much of the musical choices are blamed on the composers who indeed have composed the music but directors also play it safe and ask predictable music and composers oblige and give it to them. POA is a good example of how Alfonso Cuaron gave Williams new direction for the music and he composed the best Potter score in the series. Cuaron did not keep to the old style but opted for new and Williams gave him an inspired score. That of course is in the ear of the listener but still a good example of director/composer relationship that worked well.

So you have lost faith in Williams.Do not worry I have enough for both of us.

Thanks for provoking me to say all that I had on my chest

[Morlock 11]

Good Ol' Joe. You are just the classic old fart, aren't ya? Piss and moan about how things used to be. It must be fun to live in John Hughes-ville, where it's 1982 all the time.

[SturgisPodmore 0]

Case in point,  

Star Wars Ep. III.  Much of it is a rework of  Star Wars, clearly.  While the Star Wars music was obviously better than any of the new music in Ep. III, it was not appropriate to the films needs or structure.

Then we get War of the Worlds, a film that was hit or miss with many people, (a hit with me), but the score was awful.  It was not listenable.

Now after listening to the midi of Memoirs, not to mention the hits and misses of the last 10 years, its obvious that the Maestro is like the recently deceased Jerry Goldsmith, out of ideas, burnt out and falling towards a level of mediocrity that is frightening to behold.  Its like watching Jordan's umpteenth comeback attempt when he no longer had it.  

The parrallel we are seeing between the two is facinating, but sad.

Perhaps its time for John to retire from scoring, and let the baton pass on to a new generation, far less capable but...

somewhere out there there is someone who will rise to a new challege, and inspire a new generation of film music fans, perhaps even someone here.

. . .

~Stu--

[Richard Penna 3,671]

Star Wars Ep. III.  Much of it is a rework of  Star Wars, clearly.

It's a Star Wars movie.

While the Star Wars music was obviously better than any of the new music in Ep. III, it was not appropriate to the films needs or structure.

That's why he won an oscar for it...

Then we get War of the Worlds, a film that was hit or miss with many people, (a hit with me), but the score was awful.  It was not listenable.

That's your opinion, and excuse me, but I think it was listenable, and The Reunion is currently one of my favourite Williams tracks.

Now after listening to the midi of Memoirs,

So now you're slamming him based on 20 sec demos?

I'm sorry, but I can't take any of that seriously

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well the very first Harry potter score showed that Williams is still able do deliver a rich and diverse thematic score if he wants too.

It's just that it looks like he doesn't want to do that type of score any more.

But otherwise Joe's supposition is entirely valid.

I can't really blame Williams for the failure of the Prequel scores, but Minority Report, The Patriot, WOTW, COS etc...

These are not the kinda scores that made him a household name.

Whatever the semi-intellectual tossers ala Alex Cremers say, Williams is at his best with big lush themes.

Star wars, Superman, Indiana Jones, Jurassic Park, Harry Potter, these are the scores that made him rich and famous.

I'm all for him doing scores that require a different musical style, but I would like to have my big Williams sugar rush every now and them.

With Star Wars over and done with and no more Williams/Potter scores, what do I have to look forward too?

Indy 4?

[SturgisPodmore 0]

Joe, maybe you shouldn't post on days when you're PMS-ing.

I've witnessed nothing of this sort. Many tracks from War of the Worlds are extremely listenable.

~Sturgis

[SturgisPodmore 0]

Well the very first Harry potter score showed that Williams is still able do deliver a rich and diverse thematic score if he wants too.

It's just that it looks like he doesn't want to do that type of score any more.

This is true.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Joe, maybe you shouldn't post on days when you're PMS-ing.  

I've witnessed nothing of this sort.  Many tracks from War of the Worlds are extremely listenable.

~Sturgis

I'm surprised how much I actually enjoy WOTW, but I can see were Joe is coming from.

[SturgisPodmore 0]

Yes, there aren't any themes, and I love themes, but not even from a musical standpoint, not even because it's more intellectual musically or whatever, I just enjoy many of the cues.

~Sturgis

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

WOTW does have themes, just not many and not very prominent.

Hell, they even tell me that The lost World has several recurring themes in it's action music.

I've listened to that score a 100 times, I would not know were to find them.

[Incanus 5,713]

Yes, there aren't any themes, and I love themes, but not even from a musical standpoint, not even because it's more intellectual musically or whatever, I just enjoy many of the cues.

~Sturgis

No themes? What score have you been listening to? Williams always writes themes. It is his nature. Name one score of his that did not have themes? WOTW has very sparse thematic material but it is there. That's why Williams is my favorite composer. Hen ever lets me down.

Lost World has only the main theme and one recurring motif (I call it Isla Sorna/Danger motif) that keeps the score together. Very subtle yet it is all over the score.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

JoeinAr wrote:

While the Star Wars music was obviously better than any of the new music in Ep. III, it was not appropriate to the films needs or structure.

That's why he won an oscar for it...

surely you don't say to further your credibility because its sure as hell doesn't.

notice he's been nominated for Oscars for all the original trilogy, and he's been nominated for the prequels how many times?

try again, richuk, fail again.

[Incanus 5,713]

You are right about that Joe. Those arguments do not hold or are even remotely valid.

[Adam 1]

There's different ways of looking at it. If I don't like looking at Picasso, I don't conclude that he sucks. But with film music, sometimes it seems like its all about whatever the individual fan expects or wants and then sweeping judgements are made based on that and that's never really made sense to me.

When you've scored the two most successful movies of the year, just recorded a soundtrack with two of the greatest musical peformers in the world (who've expressed admiration for JW) and you add up all these kinds of things, that's the kind of "decline" any composer could be envious of.

Beyond that, there's lots of personal reactions. Some people like one thing, others don't. There's no way JW could please everybody. I wouldn't want every score to be like WotW but I'm glad to have at least one that takes that approach. But everyone's different, thankfully.

- Adam

[MAG-SI 10]

Now after listening to the midi of Memoirs, not to mention the hits and misses of the last 10 years, its obvious that the Maestro is like the recently deceased Jerry Goldsmith, out of ideas, burnt out and falling towards a level of mediocrity that is frightening to behold. Its like watching Jordan's umpteenth comeback attempt when he no longer had it.

Hmmm.... someone else see it?

[King Mark 3,625]

RotS,PoA,PS,A.I. are great,among Williams finest.All of these are in my top 15 or 20 now.

Terminal,Patriot,CMIYC,CoS(at least the new themes),are still very good.

I have some recently new found respect for AotC.Stlll not among his best but average

I only have a problem warming up to Minority Report and to a certain extent,but less so,to War of the Worlds.

So I don't see where the problem is

Jerry goldsmith was a totally different story.i stopped buying his albums altogheter in 1990

K.M.

[Incanus 5,713]

John Williams rules!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Jerry goldsmith was a totally different story.i stopped buying his albums altogheter in 1990

K.M.

And missed out on several of his finest.

[Incanus 5,713]

Did I mention John Williams rules!

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Who?

[Sandor 796]

King Mark; when I read your post it was as though you were writing my own thoughts (save The Patriot). We are true JW fans around here! Too bad we have to compete for it.

And incanus; I agree with you 100%

[Incanus 5,713]

Who?

You know. The man to whom this MB is dedicated to. A great film composer. Who by the way rules!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

We are true JW fans around here!

Thereby suggesting that people who do not agree with you are not real fans?

I actually find that kinda insulting.

[Sandor 796]

Thereby suggesting that people who do not agree with you are not real fans?

I actually find that kinda insulting.

You put words in my mouth there. Insulting? Not my intention. And to be honest I see you more as a lover of ALL film music (Goldsmith and all) than mainly John Williams and I RESPECT you for that 100%

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah, you are right, for me film music does not stop with john Williams alone.

That's why I won't get into a hot bath and open my vains after John Williams passes away in a year or 2, like i'm guessing KM will.

At least you still have that new G&R album to look forward too.

[Incanus 5,713]

Well we all have a free will and we can (I hope) express our opinions and views here on the MB as we like. Not even all JW fans have to like all the music Maestro has ever written.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

well if Roald is suggesting that I am not a true JW fan...

course I'm not the biggest of of what he trys to pass on us these days

[Ollie 1,059]

I disagree with Joe but he has the right to express his opinion.

He opinion won't change mine, I still think Williams puts out solid efforts and is tops in the world of film music.

[Ollie 1,059]

I also think WOTW is a great listen away from the film.

[JMan 0]

John Williams is the master. He will always kick major patoot! And WOTW is a awesome piece of music. Everything he has done is awesome. He will always be the best.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

His music is somewhat becoming "more of the same"...I'll give you that.

But it's still more of the same good stuff. He's still got it...

Star Wars was great, what's wrong with a few variations of great?

[Richard Penna 3,671]

Ok, fair points Joe, and I admit I have trouble getting into Minority Report, Patriot etc, and AotC wasn't great (but I thought the movie had a large part of that).

But to use words like burnt out and falling towards mediocrity is absurd, and to say them as fact kinda annoys me.

I'm sorry Joe, but do you suddenly have some huge problem with JW, or anyone who actually thinks he's produced some great music the last few years?

:?

[Romão 2,274]

It's a pity some of you can't get the kick I do out of scores like Seven Years in Tibet, Angela's Ashes, Amistad or A.I. Not to mention the Potter and Prequel scores.

He may not have scored as many landmark films as he did in the past, but he is still able to amaze me.

[Justin 2]

This is a classic Joe thread.

Justin

[King Mark 3,625]

It's insulting to Williams even if it's not a serious thread.

K.M.

[Jacck 23]

Not even going to read the rest of this thread...

My thoughts:

Idiot.

[nightscape94 965]

Why is it even open to discussion to argue taste? Joe is allowed to post a thread stating his opinion, and shoulded be lambasted for it. I don't agree with him, not even close, but I can understand the reason he's upset. I love A.I., and the prequel scores were largely supported as fantastic scores in the filmscore community. By the sounds of the Geisha score, I'm about to be wowed again. But this is a subjective matter.

Tim

[Lurker 5]

Joe, I never realized until now just how much I missed you.

Neil