No Holds Barred Thread: John Williams vs. Jerry Goldsmith

[Sandor 459]

In this thread opinion and taste IS debatable. No swearing, cursing and stuff like that (read the rules), but just once and for all: who is The Best of these two.

Many claim Goldsmith. Mesa don't understand.

The man has written good scores, but nowhere near the number of memoral themes John Williams has written. He has only won ONE Academy Award. He wrote for extreme turkey films all the way till the end. He had scores rejected. His sound is much more monotonous than Williams.

"This is stupid thread bla bla bla"

Yeah, yeah... Just tell me WHY you think Jerry is better than Williams. That's all I want to know!

[Trent B 317]

I do like both, but as I stated I like Goldsmith more. I guess I can listen to hours and hours on end for the Goldsmith's scores that I have. Where as for Williams the only ones I listen to for hours on end is the Star Wars stuff.

I guess too Goldsmith has written to more of the movies I like than what Williams has written to (if that make sense).

[Sandor 459]

I guess too Goldsmith has written to more of the movies I like than what Williams has written to (if that make sense).

Well I'm sorry, but Goldsmith wrote for truly terrible movies throughout his career. In that sense he was never an A-list composer. King Solomon's Mines, Dennis The Menace.... Sheesh....

[AC1 3,565]

Forgive him, Vosk is a Star Wars fan, not a movie fan .

[Sandor 459]

Forgive him, Vosk is a Star Wars fan, not a movie fan

I should be irritated by your treatment of a Prequel Friend, but I must admit I appreciate your wit!

[Josh500 1,602]

I guess too Goldsmith has written to more of the movies I like than what Williams has written to (if that make sense).

Well I'm sorry, but Goldsmith wrote for truly terrible movies throughout his career. In that sense he was never an A-list composer. King Solomon's Mines, Dennis The Menace.... Sheesh....

Well, Jerry had to write for movies that were slightly inferior, because John Williams took all the good ones!!! That's what I think. And if you think about it, there aren't that many good movies out there . . .

[Morlock 9]

Just tell me WHY you think Jerry is better than Williams.

'Bead Party', 'Thin Air', 'An Unending Story', 'Home Coming', 'Main Title' (King Solomon's Mines), 'King Richard', 'Rae's Arrival', 'The Trees', 'Theme from Papillon', 'Catching Butterflies', 'End Titles' (The 'Burbs), 'The Hunt', 'The Final Conflict', 'September 11th, 2001', 'Clever Girl', 'The Big Jump', 'Nightmare at 20,000 Feet', 'Kick The Can', 'Bajo Fuego', 'Rafael's Theme', 'Nicaragua', 'The Hijacking', 'Radek's Death', 'Chores', 'Trained Seals', 'Arthur's Farewell', 'Escape and Pursuit', 'The Hanging', 'The Hunt', 'Bandits Ho', 'Anybody got a key?', 'Main Title' (Stagecoast), 'The Artist who did not paint', 'Burial Ground, Resolution & Coda', 'The Gremlins Rag', 'Gizmo to the Rescue', 'Bloody Christmas', 'Main Themes' (Masada), 'Main Titles' (Patton), 'Attack', 'Pensieve Patton', 'Journey Into The Desert', The Escape', 'A Kaddish for Six Million', 'Tryouts', 'Klingon Attack', 'The Mission', 'Nessun Dorma', 'Main title' (Damian: Omen II), 'Justine', and 'Main Titles' (Magic) come immidiately to mind. At least, these are the tracks that make me question which one I like better.

The answer to that question is that I like Williams better, even if at times it's only by a hair, but this is as close as I get to picking a composer over Williams. But when asked who my favorite film composer is, I'll say Williams and Goldsmith. Always in that order, but I'd never leave JG out.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Roald.

You just made one pivotal error in your reasoning.

The point is not really that Goldsmith scored a lot of poor films in his career.

It's about the way he scored them.

King Solomon's Mines is a pretty bad film, no argument there, but have you actually heard the score?

Supergirl is a wreched piece of 80's cinema, but the score is absolutely first rate, and the theme itself can easily compete with John Williams theme for Superman.

Goldsmith's talent has always been his ability to score a perfect version of of a bad film.

You don't judge a book by it's cover, why judge a score by it's film?

Also, you mention Williams has written more memorable themes.

I'm not exactly sure what your context is, but if you mean themes can can be whistled by the average guy on the street, then we have the following.

Star Wars Theme.

Jaws Theme

The Imperial March

Superman

Jurassic Park

Indiana Jones Theme

And maybe Harry Potter, CE3K and E.T.

In a career that spans several decades many dozens of scores that really is not a lot, only a fraction of the many hundreds of themes that Williams has written. (trust me, back in 1980 not a single person came out of the cinema whistling Boba Fett's motif.)

Goldsmith's most famous theme is without a doubt his Enterprise theme, and the main reason of it's fame is because it became the theme for TNG.

From this you deduce that Williams is a superiour composer, while I deduce that Williams simply worked on more films that were mega blockbusters.

If Williams never hooked up with Spielberg, he would have never hooked up with Lucas. Most of the scores with "famous" themes come from collaborations with these 2 film makers.

Goldsmith, while having successfull working relationships with several well known directors (Verhoeven, Dante, Shaffer) never established a long time working relationship with someone as well known and powerfull as Spielberg or Lucas.

And finally:

Oscar do not prove a damned thing.

[Morlock 9]

Well, they do give some sense of a person's current standing within the industry.

[Morlock 9]

Oh, and King Solomon's Mines is a fantastic score. And I don't think Supergirl's theme is that great. It sounds like a spoof theme to me, something John Morris should have written. I love John Morris and his main titles, but IMO they are not comparable to themes of Superman's ilk.

Morlock- who incidentaly thinks that KSM's theme would make a very decent substitute for the Superman theme

[Trent B 317]

Roald.

You just made one pivotal error in your reasoning.

The point is not really that Goldsmith scored a lot of poor films in his career.

It's about the way he scored them.

King Solomon's Mines is a pretty bad film, no argument there, but have you actually heard the score?

Supergirl is a wreched piece of 80's cinema, but the score is absolutely first rate, and the theme itself can easily compete with John Williams theme for Superman.

Goldsmith's talent has always been his ability to score a perfect version of of a bad film.

You don't judge a book by it's cover, why judge a score by it's film?

Also, you mention Williams has written more memorable themes.

I'm not exactly sure what your context is, but if you mean themes can can be whistled by the average guy on the street, then we have the following.

Star Wars Theme.

Jaws Theme

The Imperial March

Superman

Jurassic Park  

Indiana Jones Theme

And maybe Harry Potter, CE3K and E.T.

In a career that spans several decades many dozens of scores that really is not a lot, only a fraction of the many hundreds of themes that Williams has written. (trust me, back in 1980 not a single person came out of the cinema whistling Boba Fett's motif.)

Goldsmith's most famous theme is without a doubt his Enterprise theme, and the main reason of it's fame is because it became the theme for TNG.

From this you deduce that Williams is a superiour composer, while I deduce that Williams simply worked on more films that were mega blockbusters.

If Williams never hooked up with Spielberg, he would have never hooked up with Lucas. Most of the scores with "famous" themes come from collaborations with these 2 film makers.

Goldsmith, while having successfull working relationships with several well known directors (Verhoeven, Dante, Shaffer) never established a long time working relationship with someone as well known and powerfull as Spielberg or Lucas.

And finally:

Oscar do not prove a damned thing.

For once I agree with you.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Well that KSM fanfare sounds like something that Goldsmith was pushed into writing, it's rather different from the rest of the score and he seems to use it few times as possible.

I'm uessing his work print for KSM was tracked heavily with the Raiders March.

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

I agree with Mr. Cosman.

Except I haven't heard Solomon or Supergirl.

And I still prefer Williams.

- Marc

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

I agree with Mr. Cosman.

Except I haven't heard Solomon or Supergirl.

And I still prefer Williams.

- Marc

You are still young, so you have plenty of discovering to do,

As for preferring one over the other.

I've never really understood this need in the filmscore community to try and decide which composer is the better one.

Both have radically different styles and both use(d) a different method of film scoring.

I'm glad the music of both composers has wound up in my life, deciding who of the 2 is superiour really is not a priority.

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

I agree with Mr. Cosman.

Except I haven't heard Solomon or Supergirl.

And I still prefer Williams.

- Marc

You are still young, so you have plenty of discovering to do,

Of course.

As for preferring one over the other.  

I've never really understood this need in the filmscore community to try and decide which composer is the better one.

Both have radically different styles and both use(d) a different method of film scoring.

I'm glad the music of both composers has wound up in my life, deciding who of the 2 is superiour really is not a priority.

My preference is purely based on what I like to listen to most. Not whether one is better than the other. For one thing, I still don't feel I've heard enough Goldsmith to make proper judgment of the man's work in general. And I also don't feel the need. Both are excellent composers.

- Marc, who will now listen to TMP some more.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

- Marc, who will now listen to TMP some more.

That is the wisest thing said on this MB all day.

[Trent B 317]

- Marc, who will now listen to TMP some more.

That is the wisest thing said on this MB all day.

Indeed. Been a while since I lisetned to any of Goldsmith's Trek scores myself.

[Sandor 459]

As for preferring one over the other.

I've never really understood this need in the filmscore community to try and decide which composer is the better one.

Both have radically different styles and both use(d) a different method of film scoring.

I'm glad the music of both composers has wound up in my life, deciding who of the 2 is superiour really is not a priority.

Steef; don't take it too serious. I know deep inside you're right, but this is all in good fun. It's our The Beatles vs. The Rolling Stones kinda thing.

I believe however that in 20 years Goldsmith will be mostly remembered by name (like Herrman, Steiner and all). Williams however will still be remembered because people will still know his most famous themes.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Roald, i've noticed that you often seem to judge a composers or a score's succes by how many "ordinary" people can whistle it's theme.

Isn't that really the shallowest to judge a persons talent? Especially when it comes to film scoring, were it's often required NOT to stand out to much?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

Supergirl is one of my all time favourite scores, and I have a soft spot for the film, so I can see past its many flaws.

As weeks go by, I go through modes. One week, I'm in Williams mode, the next I'm in Goldsmith mode. I can't pick a favourite between the two. The only other living composer who comes close in my view is Danny Elfman. When there's no more Williams, he will have earned his place as my favourite living film composer.

[AC1 3,565]

If whistling tunes is all you seek, go listen to the Greek.

-stewdog1

[BLUMENKOHL 1,064]

I agree with Mr. Cosman.

Except I haven't heard Solomon or Supergirl.

And I still prefer Williams.

- Marc

You are still young, so you have plenty of discovering to do,

As for preferring one over the other.

I've never really understood this need in the filmscore community to try and decide which composer is the better one.

Both have radically different styles and both use(d) a different method of film scoring.

I'm glad the music of both composers has wound up in my life, deciding who of the 2 is superiour really is not a priority.

Very well said...

My priorities are enjoying to the output of both the giants to the fullest extent.

Both have these radically different styles, and yet when you think about the films they've scored, you can imagine how each could bring strengths the other lacks to the film if they'd switches places.

As for themes I'd say Goldsmith's Klingon theme is as memorable (as in having the potential to be remembered if heard alone, without the movie) and hummable as William's most remembered anf famous, which is: Vader's Theme...but obviously, Vader's theme will be much more easily recognized and remembered...because it's Star Wars....

[Marian Schedenig 5,520]

The man has written good scores, but nowhere near the number of memoral themes John Williams has written.

Themes are overrated. Also, while Goldsmith certainly has scored more really bad movies than Williams, I think he also has a larger share of important "serious" movies.

Me, I put them on the same level. But the more I think about it, the more often I feel like giving Goldsmith the edge than Williams. But I don't... not yet at least.

Marian - who also puts The Beatles and The Rolling Stones on the same level, but personally favours the latter.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

Williams is better than Goldsmith, for many reasons, including because I said so.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

Williams is better than Goldsmith, for many reasons, including because I said so.

Joe is right

His taste is tight

Jerry's fans always fight

Joe's range can't reach that height.

[Olivier 5]

What Stefancos said.

Also, this notion that "hummability of the main theme by the average guy or girl" is a/the criterion is a pretty dubious one-- and pretty odd coming from someone who is supposed to appreciate the whole score and not stop at the main theme.

Besides, Goldsmith composed plenty of perfectly hummable, and above all, splendid melodies: Papillon, The Secret of NIMH, Babe, Poltergeist, The Traveling Executioner ("The Fields of Ambrosia"), The Enterprise, Lionheart, Medicine Man, ....

Regarding Goldsmith's filmography, such movies as Papillon, The Sand Pebbles, Chinatown, Patton, Alien, Gremlins, ... certainly can't be classified under "bad" or "box office failure".

His output certainly can't be dismissed as "always sounding the same" either-- that's a rap/pop/rock fan's point of view of film music: "it all sounds the same".

Goldsmith was very eclectic, adapted to every movie and genre, would write any kind of music, whether heroic, sad, bouncy, melancholy, "classical", jazzy, ...-- just like Williams.

As Stefancos pointed out, Williams greatly benefitted from his Spielberg/Lucas collaborations, and since then, he hasn't exactly ventured much in other directions.

Goldsmith enjoyed some good collaborations, one really good movies (and how many movies can compete with Raiders, Superman, Jurassic Park, Star Wars, E.T., ..., box-office wise ?); but he also worked on many smaller movies, even disappointing ones, and always scored them with class, always wrote the best music, scoring the ideal versions of these movies as Stefancos said; this requires great professionalism & skill.

Williams may have both, but haven't had to prove it for some time; Goldsmith did it for years and years, and the disappointments were few and far between. That he delivered so many excellent scores for so many, minor movies, is a testament to his great qualities as a film score composer.

The perfect adequation of such scores & movies as Basic Instinct can't seriously be denied either-- as pefect a fit as Williams' for E.T.

You may prefer one composer, but you certainly can't dismiss another with such arguments as "unsuccessful movies", "one Oscar only" (overlooking the many nominations and many other Awards actually won), "it all sounds the same".

[JoeinAR 1,759]

Williams is better than Goldsmith, for many reasons, including because I said so.

Joe is right

His taste is tight

Jerry's fans always fight

Joe's range can't reach that height.

your airways were restricted when you were a child weren't they.

[pat_burke 0]

As for preferring one over the other.

I've never really understood this need in the filmscore community to try and decide which composer is the better one.

Both have radically different styles and both use(d) a different method of film scoring.

I'm glad the music of both composers has wound up in my life, deciding who of the 2 is superiour really is not a priority.

Steef; don't take it too serious. I know deep inside you're right, but this is all in good fun. It's our The Beatles vs. The Rolling Stones kinda thing.

I believe however that in 20 years Goldsmith will be mostly remembered by name (like Herrman, Steiner and all). Williams however will still be remembered because people will still know his most famous themes.

So now you're knocking other great composers. Be aware that in 20 years time, the only people who will remember Johnny are his fans and other film score fans, if they still exist. Joe Bloggs on the street doesn't give a rat's sac who did the music for this film and that film. It's more or less the same today, so don't kid yourself.

[pat_burke 0]

Williams is better than Goldsmith, for many reasons, including because I said so.

Joe is right

His taste is tight

Jerry's fans always fight

Joe's range can't reach that height.

I've seen way more Jerry VS John threads on this MB than on Jerry online (where I may have seen one, once).

[nightscape94 965]

Shamefully, I only have two Goldsmith scores, so I'm not in a position to express an opinion about him accurately. I will reserve judgment until I know more. Matter of fact, Williams is the only composer I actively seek out, whereas, I only own a dozen or so film score soundtracks by other people, usually only 2 or 3 a piece (JNH, Shore, Elfman, Goldsmith, etc...).

Tim

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

Shamefully, I only have two Goldsmith scores, so I'm not in a position to express an opinion about him accurately.  I will reserve judgment until I know more.  Matter of fact, Williams is the only composer I actively seek out, whereas, I only own a dozen or so film score soundtracks by other people, usually only 2 or 3 a piece (JNH, Shore, Elfman, Goldsmith, etc...).

Tim

You have many treasures to find. Which are the two you have?

[nightscape94 965]

"Star Trek: TMP" and "Capricorn One". I almost got my hands on "The Russia House" and "The Omen", but it never came to fruition.

Tim

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

"Star Trek: TMP" and "Capricorn One".  I almost got my hands on "The Russia House" and "The Omen", but it never came to fruition.

Tim

Excellent start.

I have about 35+ Goldsmith soundtracks and I still don't even have TMP yet.

[ST-321 4]

You have 35+ JG scores and don't have ST:TMP? Go out and get it!

I very much prefer Williams over Goldsmith in a general sense, but I would never want anyone to take away ST:TMP, Patton, or even Outland. Jerry wrote some wonderful stuff and was a great composer.

Why can't they both be great?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

You have 35+ JG scores and don't have ST:TMP?  Go out and get it!

I very much prefer Williams over Goldsmith in a general sense, but I would never want anyone to take away ST:TMP, Patton, or even Outland. Jerry wrote some wonderful stuff and was a great composer.  

Why can't they both be great?

Do you have any idea how hard these things are to find?! I'm lucky I have the ones I've got!

[Sandor 459]

Why can't they both be great?

The ARE both great.

However; many members have said on this board that they find Jerry Goldsmith *better* than Williams. I respect that. I disagree, but I do not want to force anyone in thinking otherwise.

[Saxbabe 28]

Who is a better composer? Wow, that's a hard one. I defer to the words of the Great Cosman who hath shown much wisdom in this thread:

As for preferring one over the other.  

I've never really understood this need in the filmscore community to try and decide which composer is the better one.  

Both have radically different styles and both use(d) a different method of film scoring.  

I'm glad the music of both composers has wound up in my life, deciding who of the 2 is superiour really is not a priority.

Yes, I am also very glad. 8O Just on a personal level, I prefer JW, but I don't feel at all that Goldsmith is any lesser, my personality just gravitates toward Williams.

Also, I grew up on Williams, since I was 12 I have been discovering and studying his music, Goldsmith only the last 5 years. (Except for the Treks, which I discovered earlier. ) So I have also a lot of nostalgia with JW's music...

...You deduce that Williams is a superiour composer, while I deduce that Williams simply worked on more films that were mega blockbusters.  

If Williams never hooked up with Spielberg, he would have never hooked up with Lucas. Most of the scores with "famous" themes come from collaborations with these 2 film makers.  

Goldsmith, while having successfull working relationships with several well known directors (Verhoeven, Dante, Shaffer) never established a long time working relationship with someone as well known and powerfull as Spielberg or Lucas.  

You bet - the collaboration with the *right* director, and a long time collaboration, is key.

And finally:  

Oscar do not prove a damned thing.

Yeah...just being nominated is an honor, and the 5 nominee scores/composers are usually so different, it's arbritary to have to pick one as best. 17 Oscar nominations, that's pretty darn good.

Greta

[Incanus 5,519]

I know it is nice to argue about these matters of taste but why not admit that both composers are extremely gifted individuals who have both written beautiful music and have enriched our lives with their talents.

It took quite awhile to get out of this "biased JW fan bandwagon" ( this from a man who shouted "JW rules!" in many threads awhile back may come as a surprise and sound a tad incredulous ) but I am nowadays more tolerant towards other film music than JW's. The fact that I continually find new composers and scores I like does not mean they would ever threaten to lessen my appreciation for JW's music. I do not have to like all music as much as his but I try to keep an open mind.

If I was made to choose between Goldsmith and Williams I would choose the latter. His music has affected me in so many ways and given me so much that there would be no other choice.

If I had discovered Goldsmith earlier and listened more to his music and gotten more deeply acquainted with his career and music then perhaps the answer would be different but now it is Williams.

[Sandor 459]

Roald, i've noticed that you often seem to judge a composers or a score's succes by how many "ordinary" people can whistle it's theme.

Isn't that really the shallowest to judge a persons talent? Especially when it comes to film scoring, were it's often required NOT to stand out to much?

I'm really a "themes-man", that's true. It's what got me interested in film music; themes that can stand on their own as absolute music.

If a theme finds its way into the public awareness I see that as a great compliment to a composer. If various themes get this recognition you often see concerts, radio broadcasts and things like that. I've heard several composers express their joy when such a thing happens.

But it is very rare.

I'm see film as the medium where composers are active who's foremost goal is to compose symphonic, serious music. They write for films because they want their music to be noticed, to be heard. If Mozart would be alive today he wouldn't write operas; he would be a film composer and instead of composing The Magic Flute he would have wanted to score Harry Potter.

You are right that there is film music that is not supposed to stand out at all. I usually find great appreciation for it (Se7en), but you won't find me listening to it very often. I do however, listen a lot to the themes for Star Wars, Rudy, Glory, Once Upon A Time In America and thousands of other pieces.

Composers create "concert style arrangments" of themes (even when they're never heard in its entirely in the finished film) because they want their music to recieve attention aside from the films. That's a very natural thing. Even Jerry Goldsmith stated that not every note recorded should be released on album. Why? Because he was aware that there is an obvious difference from the music in the film as opposed to the music as it should be heard away from the images. Not saying here that we can't enjoy our complete soundtracks!

Goldsmith adapted his film music to create pieces exclusively for concert performance or for album recordings. Ask yourself why.

In that regard Williams succeeded better than Goldsmith. There are at least 10 themes Williams wrote that are imbedded in the common man's conscienceness: Star Wars Main Theme, E.T. Flying, Jurassic Park Theme, Schindler's List Theme, Jaws Theme, The Raiders' March, The Imperial March, Superman Theme, Hedwigs' Theme and the Close Encounters Signal Theme. Even The Force Theme is widely remembered.

Not EVERYONE will know them. But a lot of people; more than those who will be familiar with Danny Elfman's Spiderman Theme.

I highlight Spiderman, because to think that every hit film or film series will automatically give its musical theme legendary status is simply not true. Who remembers the music from Spiderman, Shrek 2, Pirates of the Carribean and other highly succesful films of the last 5 years? Those films HAD themes, but only a select, deeply devoted group of fans will know them.

Play the Harry Potter Theme however and countless people will instantly know it.

That's, for me, the power of John Williams.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

I highlight Spiderman, because to think that every hit film will automatically give the film's musical theme legendary status is simply not true. Who remembers the music from Spiderman, Shrek 2, Pirates of the Carribean and other highly succesful films of the last 5 years? Those films HAD themes, but only a select, deeply devoted group of fans will know them.

Why does everyone always pick on Elfman's Spider-Man?

[Luke Skywalker 1,285]

I like both, but i prefer williams (not saying Goldsmith is worse though).

[Sandor 459]

Why does everyone always pick on Elfman's Spider-Man?

It's such a good example that "hit film series" does not equal "famous theme".

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

Why does everyone always pick on Elfman's Spider-Man?

It's such a good example that "hit film series" does not equal "famous theme".

Its theme is memorable. You're just mistaking it because of its complexity.

[Luke Skywalker 1,285]

I cant recall the spiderman theme...

[AC1 3,565]

Pure technically and musically (without judging its purpose - the film that it's written for), I'd have to stick with Williams. He's almost some kind of wunderkind in comparison to Goldsmith or any other film composer. Even his early periode is written freakishly good, maybe even better than his present output. Goldsmith is never that organic, fluent and effortlessly as Williams. That said, I admire Goldsmith for his interpretation and understanding of the material and for the 12-tone music techniques he occasionally interweaved into his scores.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Mr. Breathmask 480]

Most people who remember the music from Shrek remember the songs, not the score. The songtrack is really quite popular.

[Morlock 9]

Its theme is memorable.  You're just mistaking it because of its complexity.

What's complex about that theme? 4 very simple notes. Sure, everything around it is very dense, but the theme itself is nothing special or particulaly memorable. I love the way he uses it, and what he does around it, but the theme itself is nothing special.

Most people who remember the music from Shrek remember the songs, not the score. The songtrack is really quite popular.

I find that people remember the main theme just as well as the songs.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,765]

[Luke Skywalker 1,285]

too easy.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

I highlight Spiderman, because to think that every hit film will automatically give the film's musical theme legendary status is simply not true. Who remembers the music from Spiderman, Shrek 2, Pirates of the Carribean and other highly succesful films of the last 5 years? Those films HAD themes, but only a select, deeply devoted group of fans will know them.

Why does everyone always pick on Elfman's Spider-Man? 8O

because its such a lackluster effort. I mean really was there music? And if so does anyone care?