Star Wars: Original Trilogy Music Resource

[Trent B 337]

I believe the biggest problem was Ford Thaxton

What makes you say that?

[Ollie 1,059]

I believe there was a post at FSM, by those who actually worked on it, that explained some of the problems with the Anthology and why it ended up with the mix it has.

You mean with the SE... the Anthology isn't mixed incorrectly... I mean, ESB from what I've heard is said to have sounded like it was recorded in a basement... but past that

No I mean the anthology.

And if memory serves me right it wasn't Ford's fault. I believe it was Nick Redman who explained everything.

[GoodMusician 56]

the anthology doesn't have a bad mix though... are there problems with the mix that I'm not aware of?

[robthehand 3]

"Leia's Instruction" and "Departure of Boba Fett" (and possibly another cue) have the stereo channels reversed on the anthology.

[GoodMusician 56]

ah... I guess that's because I havn't gone through ESB yet... that's easily remedied though... thanks for pointing that out.

I guess ESB has a history of reversed channels lol...

Interesting.

[Delorean90 42]

Hmm...

[Ollie 1,059]

And just think, if it weren't for the internet I never would have really noticed the channels were reversed.

[lordskylark 1]

How would you know if the channels were reversed and which one was correct even?

#2 - Are the tracks just a different mixes between the SE and Anthology, or did they use a completely different take of the cue?

[Henry B 50]

There are standards in orchestral mixing. Basses on right, violins on left, etc. It's based on the setup of the orchestra. The channel-swapped cues in the Anthology set run opposite to these standards.

[Trent B 337]

Also keep in mind Star Wars from the Anthology set in quite a few cues the music just kinda cuts out or gets dialed out for a moment or two in some spots. I don't remember which cues this error occurs in but it's there.

[Jim Ware 526]

The Star Wars disc in the anthology uses a number of incorrect takes. The disc was assembled by Ford Thaxton, but the original paperwork indicating the correct takes and edit points between those takes was missing, IIRC. The anthology as a whole was assembled very quickly and there was no time to identify or correct any mistakes.

[GoodMusician 56]

Sounds like the problem they had with the SE.

Why can't they just sit down and have time to do it right? Is that so much to ask? lol

[Lurker 5]

Sounds like the problem they had with the SE.

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Star Wars SE album was assembled properly, using the correct takes. They had the time to do it right.

Neil

[GoodMusician 56]

Right...

And that's why ESB sounds like shit, and ROTJ sounds like glorified shit. (and yes, I was talking about the SE's in general,not just 'Star Wars.')

Perhaps he was wrong, but when I was asking several threads ago why this was, Stefancos said that it was because they were in a studio that was lotted to be used to record a score...I want to say he said Independence Day, and that because of that they didn't have time to really make it the best. (Not that I'm pointing fingers, but since he told me, I figured it was a good source of information)

So if I don't know what I'm talking about, it's because you all havn't given me a good reason otherwise. I did ask before.

That's one thing that drives me crazy about you people.

You act like you're so good and know all this knowledge about the scores and you have a wonderful website and the best frakin medium out there with which to distribute that information...and you guys don't. You just hoard it. It's hard for people, including myself who's been here since 05!--to learn things from people when they just ...don't tell you...

You should all consider consolidating the knowledge and putting it to use and make a nice database about it.

but either way... the SE's definately sound rushed and like they didn't really try.

If they had, the channels wouldn't be mixed improperly on ESB, ANH would sound a little bit more like the other scores, and ROTJ wouldn't sound like your wearing earmuffs and trying to listen to it.

[Trent B 337]

Wow someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning... easy there cowboy.

[GoodMusician 56]

Don't take it as me being angry. I'm not angry. I'm just stating things... so please don't put emotion into it that does not exist. I was simply stating that it does annoy me when you people get surprised that weird rhumors or mis information is passed around, but don't try to stop it by making a database of true information.

It was something I've said before but no one was interested. And I've asked these same questions before but only one person answered.

So again,don't see it as anything but perhaps slight annoyance that I'm being told I don't know anything... especially when I'm trying to learn from people...

But anyways, back on topic.

Perhaps the 'Star Wars' SE was put together "correctly," but still mixed oddly... but the others? Don't try to say they were done correctly lol...

And all you people about to say "Well I waited 20 years to hear the complete score yada yada yada" dont' even bother. Nothing annoys me more than people who make excuses for allowing poor craftsmanship lol

I was also just making a joke about the SE which was read into far too much...

[robthehand 3]

You act like you're so good and know all this knowledge about the scores and you have a wonderful website and the best frakin medium out there with which to distribute that information...and you guys don't. You just hoard it. It's hard for people, including myself who's been here since 05!--to learn things from people when they just ...don't tell you...

Umm... unless I'm mis-reading the topic, Neil did just tell you.

(and yes, I was talking about the SE's in general,not just 'Star Wars.')

You said "Sounds like the problem they had with the SE" ("the SE" - singular) in response to Jim's post about specifically the Star Wars disc.

And besides, the problems with Empire and Jedi's SEs weren't to do with using the wrong takes, or (as far as I can tell) a rushed schedule.

[GoodMusician 56]

so I forgot an "s" on "SE" so sue me...sorry... lol

My problem with being told now is I've asked that question at least 3 times before and the only satisfactory answer I got was the one I just gave and which I was under the impression of... "a rushed schedule." heh

So again, don't bite me in the ass for not knowing something when I've asked it before lol and you didn't tell me lol

I still say you should all make a databse...

[Henry B 50]

The Star Wars mix sounds great. Other than the occasional over-miking of instruments, particularly the trumpets, which leads to crackling and distortion, it's spectacularly clear. The performance of the LSO is stronger on Star Wars than on the sequels, so that also factors into sound quality.

[Lurker 5]

GM, I specifically said "Star Wars". I wasn't talking about the sequel scores.

But if you must know, all that exists on Empire and Jedi are the Wannberg assembled takes, so there is no chance of getting alternate performances the way there are with Star Wars on the Anthology, which I believe was the original question I was answering.

If you really want to get the last word on the Star Wars SE albums, I suggest subscribing to FSMOnline and going to the back issue archive. Volume 2, Number 1 from 1997 has articles by Michael Matessino detailing the creation of these albums.

Neil

[Ollie 1,059]

Besides when someone who actually is involved in the business posts on message boards their info is usually ignored.

[77 3]

A slight correction to the instructions for recreating the original 1980 "Empire" album:

11. THE CITY IN THE CLOUDS

SE CD 1 Track 10 (0:00-2:05)

Mix in SE CD 2 Track 3 (1:15-3:21)

+ SE CD 2 Track 3 (3:45-End)

should be

11. THE CITY IN THE CLOUDS

SE CD 1 Track 10 (0:00-2:05)

Mix in SE CD 2 Track 5 (1:15-3:21)

+ SE CD 2 Track 5 (3:45-End)

Took me a while to figure that out - many thanks to whoever worked the rest out in the first place because I'd never have got it all!

Am I the first person in 18 months to attempt this edit and notice the typo???

[sulky 6]

A slight correction to the instructions for recreating the original 1980 "Empire" album:

11. THE CITY IN THE CLOUDS

SE CD 1 Track 10 (0:00-2:05)

Mix in SE CD 2 Track 3 (1:15-3:21)

+ SE CD 2 Track 3 (3:45-End)

should be

11. THE CITY IN THE CLOUDS

SE CD 1 Track 10 (0:00-2:05)

Mix in SE CD 2 Track 5 (1:15-3:21)

+ SE CD 2 Track 5 (3:45-End)

Took me a while to figure that out - many thanks to whoever worked the rest out in the first place because I'd never have got it all!

Am I the first person in 18 months to attempt this edit and notice the typo???

Crap. What was I thinking... Sorry about the error with the track number as I hastily put up that edit list together. I'll give it another once over to see if there are any more mistakes. Crap x2

[77 3]

A slight correction to the instructions for recreating the original 1980 "Empire" album:

11. THE CITY IN THE CLOUDS

SE CD 1 Track 10 (0:00-2:05)

Mix in SE CD 2 Track 3 (1:15-3:21)

+ SE CD 2 Track 3 (3:45-End)

should be

11. THE CITY IN THE CLOUDS

SE CD 1 Track 10 (0:00-2:05)

Mix in SE CD 2 Track 5 (1:15-3:21)

+ SE CD 2 Track 5 (3:45-End)

Took me a while to figure that out - many thanks to whoever worked the rest out in the first place because I'd never have got it all!

Am I the first person in 18 months to attempt this edit and notice the typo???

Crap. What was I thinking... Sorry about the error with the track number as I hastily put up that edit list together. I'll give it another once over to see if there are any more mistakes. Crap x2

I've just used the info to make the complete edit, so it can't have too many errors! Think I shifted some edit points by a second or two in the end credits but that may have been more to do with my unmusical ear trying to fit the sections together.

I do recall the track order being slightly different. Rather than:

1 Main Title

2 Yoda's Theme

3 Heroics of Luke and Han

4 Imperial March

5 Training of a Jedi Knight

I think it was:

(Side 1)

1 Main Title

2 Yoda's Theme

3 Training of a Jedi Knight

4 Heroics of Luke and Han

(Side 2)

5 Imperial March

and then the rest the same.

[GoodMusician 56]

So I was exploring wikipedia today and ran across a really odd notation on the Return of the Jedi page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Epi...28soundtrack%29

Look at the track listing for the SE (at the bottom).

It says in track 2 there is some sort of source cue... Death Star in Disarray??... what is it talking about

[Trent B 337]

Whoever typed that is wrong.. I have the Sony sets and there's no "hidden" track.

[Lurker 5]

It's on the internet and Wikipedia, it must be true!

Neil

[Trent B 337]

Nooo... it's not true... it's impossible!!!!!

[GoodMusician 56]

I never said I believe it or thought it to be true... and I had no idea what he was talking about... so I thought I'd ask... I'd never heard that before... just thought I'd ask... no reason to get dramatic about it.

[Jacob 0]

They're just melodramatic.

[GoodMusician 56]

Hey all...

so I've been going over A New Hope and really listening to the score. I've listened and really studied all the Other star wars scores but this one and I'm noticing some things that are rather interesting.

I was curious about this however:

How does Cantina Song II End?!

I mean... come on... Whats with the fade out??? ... It just seems confusing to me....Anyone know why that is? I know on the Anthology there is about 10 seconds left off from the SE, but still, neither presents the complete track.

Anyone got any idea?

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

I think It was not meant to be used in its entirety, since its heard more like background than the other cue. I think. Since williams may not had know how much length it would be used. he recorded a few minutes and with no ending since it is not neccesary.

[Datameister 2,037]

Well...it had to have an ending, Luke. Not necessarily a "real" ending; it could just stop at the end of a phrase, without a proper finale of sorts, much like the first Cantina Band piece does. Neither piece is actually featured prominently in the film with the exception of a few shots, and the edits in the film do indeed make formal endings unnecessary. But...there has to be an ending! This has bothered me, too, GoodMusician. Dunno why they had to be inconsistent and present the full "Cantina Band #1" but stick with the fade for #2.

[Henry B 50]

The fadeout was probably prearranged, and the band just stopped playing at some point. "Cantina Band #1" is different because it has a written ending.

[Datameister 2,037]

The fadeout was probably prearranged, and the band just stopped playing at some point. "Cantina Band #1" is different because it has a written ending.

"Cantina Band #1" has a written ending in the same sense that #2 must...it's nothing spectacular or especially endinglike, but it does end. #1 doesn't have particularly fascinating ending--it's just another recapitulation of the main theme, plus an (un)intentional clarinet squeak and a bit of solo synth at the end--but it's nice to have for the sake of completism, and because it answers the question of what was there. Don't forget, the original Star Wars album had a fadeout at the end of #1, too. So I'm sure #2 has a similarly unremarkable ending, but it'd still be nice to hear for the sake of completism.

[GoodMusician 56]

it does seem funny, too, that the only other release of the band song 2 prior to the SE had a 10 second earlier fade out than the SE's does... which seems to almost imply there is more...

[Datameister 2,037]

There IS more. Neither fadeout was the type produced by playing softer and softer and softer...they were introduced artificially. Hence, there is more.

[Henry B 50]

"Indiana... Indiana...

"Let it go."

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

Many other musical genres tracks have fadeouts.

Why cant this one?

Maybe williams wanted to do like that since its suposed to be popular music in the SW universe. Not a classical composition.

[Datameister 2,037]

I've never appreciated fadeouts anyway. If I want a fadeout, I'll make a fadeout of my own. I'd rather the album's creators don't deprive me of the remaining music, no matter how repetitive it may be. I understand WHY they do this--most people have no interest in creating their own fadeouts, and they'll actually think worse of the album if the entire recording is left on at a flat volume level. But for me personally, I'd rather have the dull "ending." Better yet, how about a real ending!

[GoodMusician 56]

I guess the point in my asking is because it obviously exists... You can't fade out to nothing from nothing, therefore, something existed...

following me? :-p

It just seems funny that they wouldn't put the entire cue on there... especially since there was some thought into presenting more of the cue by giving it that extra 10 seconds...

but the question remains... I wonder if the masters were lost or damaged or destroyed... and maybe they only had a copy or some such... and as a "finished" version, that was a pre-edited/faded out version... and hence they couldn't do anything about it.

Just seems funny that they'd go to the lengths they did to find the correct takes... the correct edits... the correct everything... and fade out the track. And as stated, they didn't fade out on the Cantina Song 1... they could easily have done that there as well and argued that was the intent... and that it was never fully used... so therefore it's ok...

just thought I'd ask. No one's really talked about it that I've seen and I thought maybe someone would have read something I haven't.

[Guest macrea]

I was told that source music is often recorded with the knowledge that it just needs to be of a minimum length. The conductor then just cuts it off when they have "enough". If a track recorded that way was presented without a fade-out it would sound like a rehearsal, where the players just gradually stop on their own at random. That would sound pretty sloppy on a CD. And didn't the first Cantina Band have a fade-out on the OST? There's nothing unusual about it.

[Datameister 2,037]

I was told that source music is often recorded with the knowledge that it just needs to be of a minimum length. The conductor then just cuts it off when they have "enough". If a track recorded that way was presented without a fade-out it would sound like a rehearsal, where the players just gradually stop on their own at random. That would sound pretty sloppy on a CD. And didn't the first Cantina Band have a fade-out on the OST? There's nothing unusual about it.

You're probably right. I'd still rather hear it, though...

[Henry B 50]

This is taking anal-retentive to a new level.

There's absolutely no evidence that Star Wars tapes were lost or damaged. Excellent, 2nd generation (I believe) masters were found and utilized for the Special Edition. "Cantina Band #2" has no ending (see macrea's post) and thus fades out.

Live with it.

[Datameister 2,037]

Henry...is there a problem with us being curious what the rest sounds like? Is this impacting your day negatively? Are we engaging in annoying and disrespectful arguments over what should have been released? Of all the things there are to complain about regarding this forum--and there are way too freaking many of 'em--this is NOT the one that deserves your attention.

We're curious. In your own words, live with it.

[Henry B 50]

Fellows, this is for your own good.

[Datameister 2,037]

...What is? You attempting to eradicate our curiosity about this, thereby giving us time to do more worthwhile activities? Just so ya know...I really haven't lost too much sleep over this issue. I'm just saying I'd like to hear the full recording.

[Trent B 337]

Beating a dead horse can be tiring though. As Henry said, live with it.

[GoodMusician 56]

oh dear god.

Would you people lighten up!

For the first time in months, we're having an interesting conversation and the only thing you can say is "Get over it."

I'm not being anal retentive. I'm not being obnoxious. I'm CURIOUS. I am wondering about it.

As far as damaged tapes, Metasino says that many of the cues in the SE were actually dumbed down sound wise so that the entire set would sound good together because certain masters had degraded and could not be used and so 2nd generation masters had to be used.

I just was curious if anyone had heard anything specific about this cue... or its master. The people on this forum come from many backgrounds and many different resources... I like to ask these questions because I usually find someone who has an idea... or helpful answer.

The other reason I ask is that I'd like to know how it ends lol... I mean, recording or not... I was also curious if there was sheet music or something that had leaked for it or that is available for it.

I mean, it's probably been arranged, but I thought I'd ask.

Just for curiosity sake...

[Trent B 337]

So I don't have to start a new thread I thought I'd bump this one up since it's related to this topic.

Anyways I've just started redoing my Original Trilogy scores and I'm on Empire right now and I'm using mostly the Anthology mixes where ever I can for it since they're more natural. Anyways, one thing I noticed with the S.E. material compared to the Anthology is that the S.E. is either sped up or sped down a bit...it doesn't quite match the levels when trying to insert the missing material. I also noticed too that they added a lot of highness to the cue so that's why it seems more brighter than the Anthology stuff.

Henry told me that he remembered reading that The Imperial March on the S.E. is sped up but doesn't know by how much.

Other than that with some tinkering last night I managed to get the correct pitch for the S.E. and insert that missing material and doing quite a bit of high cut to the piece.