How good is King Kong score?

[Damo 0]

How good is King Kong score?

I have listen to samples of each track from iTunes, its sounds really good considering James Newton Howard had about 3 or 4 weeks to write it and also who here are going to buy it?

so what do ya think?

[gkgyver 1,645]

I'll definitely buy it. Downloading a score will never keep me from also buying it.

Although good, I can't see too many truly outstanding cues in King Kong. I still think Shore could have done much better; especially the main theme.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I'll definitely be buying the album. All I've heard so far are the iTunes clips, so I can't judge.

Ray Barnsbury

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

Although good, I can't see too many truly outstanding cues in King Kong. I still think Shore could have done much better; especially the main theme.

Maybe, and maybe not. Who knows.

Not everything Shore has penned ever since he became popular due to LOTR has its quality to it. Scores like The Cell, The Aviator, Gangs of New York all have quite standard writing with no really remarkable theme to lose one's head for. I believe he outdid himself on LOTR scores, but given the long time he had to work on the music, I think some others would have pulled off equivalently good, if not better, composition. Peter Jackson is perhaps aware of that too.

Roman.-)

[nightscape94 965]

I like JNH, and even though I won't buy everything he puts out automatically, like I do for Williams, I think the material lends itself for good composition, especially from someone whose music is as richly textured and thematically interesting as JNH.

Tim, enjoying his run-on sentence in all its glory.

EDIT: Also, can I ask how people are even voting? The score isn't out until the 13th (in the States at least), so we have about another week to go. Technically, no one here has heard it, yet I see votes casted. Based on what, 30 second clips?

Tim

[Damo 0]

 Based on what, 30 second clips?

Well my vote was based on 30 second clips on iTunes. But the poll is mainly based on the full score on the soundtrack when it comes out.

[Morlock 11]

I'll tell you after I see the movie nd buy the soundtrack.

Morlock- who will most certainly be doing both.

[Incanus 5,714]

THe CD comes out on 12th of Dec. here in Finland so I guess I'll buy it then or littl elater (if I have not run out of money, since FOTR Box will on it's way by then I hope). Too many scores and too little money. The usual problem But I'll seeing the movie when it comes out.

[robthehand 3]

THe CD comes out on 12th of Dec.

Sounds familiar... LOL

[Incanus 5,714]

THe CD comes out on 12th of Dec.

Sounds familiar... LOL

LOL All too familiar. Though Kong is not near as important as Complete FOTR so if it delays I have not problem with that. It gives me time to save some money for the CD

[David Coscina 3]

Not everything Shore has penned ever since he became popular due to LOTR has its quality to it. Scores like The Cell, The Aviator, Gangs of New York all have quite standard writing with no really remarkable theme to lose one's head for.  

Roman.-)

I must whole heartedly disagree with your above statement. First, The Cell was released prior to LOTR. Second, The Aviator has GREAT themes, especially the "flying" theme with its audacious brass statement. I also love the Bach-inspired contrapuntal "Icarus" track. It's amazing to hear this kind of writing coming from Shore. In fact, I prefer his Aviator score to LOTR.

Howard's KING KONG, it's a mixed bag. Some of the variations of the tragic Kong theme (the one that has the root-minor 3rd-root-octave motive) are nice in the pentultimate track "Beauty Killed the Beast IV", but his "heroic" Kong theme is just a harmonized Harmonic minor scale. And it really doesn't sound very evocative of Kong- more like a super hero theme.

While I respect JN Howard's technique immensely, I will make the audacious statement that Shore's score was probably infinitely better SUITED to this film. The little bits I have heard from Shore's score seemed more consistent with the tone and setting of Jackson's film. Heck, Barry's 1976 score had a great polytonal chord that symbolized Kong's beastial ferocity. JN Howard's take is much like Williams' approach to Jurassic Park. The beasts are noble creatures to be awed at, not feared. I think that both Steiner's and Barry's scores still generated a lot of sympathy for Kong but retained the primitive quality of his character. Fact is, a 25 foot gorilla that rips apart T-Rex mouths with his bare hands isn't a sweet cuddly critter, and as such should be represented as the intimitable thing he is.

The weakest material on JN Howard's KONG is the action material. Block chord progressions, simple sequencing (not MIDI but the classical compositional technique of taking a phrase and modulating it in different keys), ubiquitous trilling horns, mixed meters etc. much like second hand Goldsmith. Or worse, second hand JN Howard. The fact that I'm a big Howard fan actually works against me because I can hear Hildago, The Fugitive, Waterworld, Peter Pan/Treasure Planet, and Dinosaur lines in his KONG. I guess I'm not really too upset or surprised because I expected this due to the short amount of time he had to write this. and I suspect that this Chris Bacon fella probably wrote the Gershwin-inspired jazz moments in the film since I once read that HOward wasn't too comfortable writing jazz charts.

I hope KONG is a SUPER SIZED hit so the production company greedy buggers will whore themselves out by releasing Shore's rejected score. this is one case where the MBA mentality might work in favor for us soundtrack enthusiasts.

[Jeshopk 8]

Not everything Shore has penned ever since he became popular due to LOTR has its quality to it. Scores like The Cell, The Aviator, Gangs of New York

Whether or not they have remarkable themes is nothing to say about the quality of those scores. I'm not a shore junkie, but I was astounded by The Cell. Amazing music especially if you haven't seen the movie!

I hope KONG is a SUPER SIZED hit so the production company greedy buggers will whore themselves out by releasing Shore's rejected score. this is one case where the MBA mentality might work in favor for us soundtrack enthusiasts.

What if the Kong DVD features the Shore version with Jackson shelling out to record the rest of the score. My suspicion is that Jackson felt that Shore's music was better after all, unless he was intentionally aiming for mediocrity with JNH.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

In my view, they are all quite poor scores. No need to argue about that, though. Whether The Cell was penned before Shore started piling up the material for LOTR is debatable, but in any case, it's not worth quarreling over that. I didn't hear The Cell outside of the movie and it didn't impress me half the way Lambs score did long ago and still is. I find the Aviator to be the weakest of the scores this year, especially when taking into account it came from the composer who pulled off great themes for LOTR. If any of you disagrees with me, I'll find the strength to get over that.

[David Coscina 3]

I wasn't quarreling- I was providing another POV on your claim. If you don't like Shore's Aviator, then why don't you say that rather than making some objective assertion like they are all poor scores? Anyhow, I'm not trying to be hostile or anything. My take on this and other forums is that they are places for healthy debate and exchange of ideas.

Jesse, I totally agree with you. Funny enough, JN Howard's KONG is most effective in the final 2 tracks BECAUSE it apes (pun intended) Shore's LOTR style with the choir/string/horn unison line along with the harmonic suspensions in the strings to give the music that extra push into "tragic" territory. The iv-I chord progression is of course a standard harmonic progression but the way HOward orchestrates it, it reminds me of "The Prophecy" from Shore's LOTR:FOTR. And the boy falsetto underlining Kong's fall smacks of Shore's original conception of the moment. So I find it ironic that the replacement score hits all the right buttons only in moments where it sounds like Shore. funny, yet not. More like tragic.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Fiery Angel, I couldn't agree more. It's similar to Troy. Horner used many elements and themes from Yared, and these are the best parts of the otherwise mediocre score.

Where Kong shines, it mimicks Shore's thematic beauty and orchestrations. The action is quite flat, though.

I don't give a damn whether Shore's scores either before or after LotR are equally as good because it would be unfair to compare any of them with LotR. And I don't give a damn whether Shore writes a knockout theme for each of his scores, since his scoring abilities, and his talent to give films a unique sound make more than up for it.

[David Coscina 3]

I cannot really comment on Horner's TROY since I spoke to Yared for a couple hours regarding his score and I'm very biased. It wouldn't surprise me if Shore's KONG is on par with Yared's TROY in terms of beauty, complexity, emotion, and overall musical cohesion.

Nothing against JN Howard, but I find this business of replacing a composer in the 11th hour more and more disturbing as it's being done more and more. I guess Hollywood execs really don't respect or think that much of the music if they are willing to throw out months of work for a score that was written in a number of days. And to most of us film score fans/music fans/composers, we can sure as hell tell the difference, as I honestly think discerning audiences can too.

I don't really care WHO was responsible for Shore's dismissal. The fact is, what we were all expecting was another powerhouse effort from one of the most talented, respected composers working in film at this time, and what we got was a watered down, generic James Newton Howard effort that's beneath his standard of writing (compare KONG to his Shyamalan efforts- it comes up short...way short). and to cap it off, it actually pisses me off that the best material, and probably most effective in the film, is stuff that rips off Shore's score/style. I wouldn't be surprised if part of track 20 (Beauty Killed the Beast IV) was lifted from Shore's cue. The studio owns the music and already paid for it. Why not slip it in a la re-arranged via JN Howard Inc. (because there were other composers credited with "additional music")? I'm mad now.....

NP- The Aviator!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Why not slip it in a la re-arranged via JN Howard Inc. (because there were other composers credited with "additional music")?

IMO, that's what happened in Troy.

[David Coscina 3]

Well, in TROY's case, Horner actually used the same singer that Yared had hired for his score. Adding insult to injury IMO.

[gkgyver 1,645]

But I also mean the theme for Achilles and Briseis.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

I wasn't quarreling- I was providing another POV on your claim.  If you don't like Shore's Aviator, then why don't you say that rather than making some objective assertion like they are all poor scores?  Anyhow, I'm not trying to be hostile or anything.  My take on this and other forums is that they are places for healthy debate and exchange of ideas.

The way we perceive things, and music for that matter, is all nothing but subjective percept! I was NOT making "objective assertion" on that point and I am not used to "claiming" things and stating my opinions as facts! You like certain things, others don't, that's the way it works, which I'm sure we'll concur in this at least.

What discomforts me is that when people collide in opinion on music, that as if closes the door and the wall between them is built. It might happen I will never discuss anything from Shore with you for some unspecified fear of getting "in little trouble" again. I just can't find anything much positive about the above challenged scores. I don't say they're utter trash, but at the same time I don't think them good enough to ascertain me Shore's King Kong would be great.

Gangs of New York may have a few tracks I liked, but on the whole, it left me impassible. I had that luck to listen to Horner's ""new"" "Zorro" score, and despite the positive reviews it's been receiving, I'm totally disgusted. But Horner's fans are really edgy people who cannot seem to accept well-meant criticism so I refrain from talking about Horner elsewhere. But I don't want to be blocked to deliberately debate here even though I won't always find an accord.

[publicist 4,643]

I had that luck to listen to Horner's ""new"" "Zorro" score, and despite the positive reviews it's been receiving, I'm totally disgusted. But Horner's fans are really edgy people who cannot seem to accept well-meant criticism so I refrain from talking about Horner elsewhere.

You don't have to be a rabid Horner fan to acknowledge that LOZ is a rather fun flamenco swashbuckler....to be 'disgusted' by it (and i presume you are one of those people who get multiple strokes because the horned one used the same themes...yawn) and not realizing that there are actually fun variations on said themes, is a rather sorrow excuse for 'well-meant criticism'.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

As I see it Horner's weakness is that he hasn't written anything original since Braveheart, yet his fans claim he's become the most unduly defamed composer of all time. His fans are definitely the most devoted and forgiving out there. But would you dare make change about what you practically succeed selling that well? James Horner has an occasional flare of bravado, but there is a big push missing to get him going and set him out for the mastery hidden in him. And if people keep buying his records and film-makers keep hiring him to score the films, why get stirred?

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

As I see it Horner's weakness is that he hasn't written anything original since Braveheart

i dont think Braveheart really was that original. i'd look nearer, possibly Mask of Zorro (sounds 'new' enough to me on film, but i havent heard the score on CD and my memory is vague). i hear quite a bit of Glory and Legends of the Fall in Braveheart. still, nice to listen to.

[David Coscina 3]

Yoda, I wouldn't worry about talking about Shore. If he isn't our cup of tea, that's perfectly fine. He's not my favorite composer although I do like a number of his works. I like James Newton Howard quite a lot and have been listening to Kong repeatedly since I got it from iTunes this Tuesday. It's all well written material but I wouldn't say too original or unique. The softer, quiet tracks such as "Beautiful" and "Central Park" are my favorites as they encompass some nice lyricism. the action tracks are bereft of real depth IMO. They are probably quite functional in the context of the film but I still think they are too modern sounding for a '30s set piece.

Anyhow, if anything, Howard's KONG has sparked some interesting debate and discussion so it cannot be that bad- and honestly, it's not terrible. If Zimmer or the MV chronies had scored this, I would have a lot more negative things to say about the music.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

I've just arrived at track 8 now (first listen) and have to say, until now it's very good.

[Ollie 1,059]

Average is the word I would use but given the short amount of time JNH had to write I'll cut him some slack.

I don't think it will be remembered as a classic like Steiner's score is nor will it be up there with Barry's Kong but time will tell.

[Jeshopk 8]

Average is the word I would use but given the short amount of time JNH had to write I'll cut him some slack.

I think the only problem I have with cutting JNH slack on this one is that he has taken on too many short assignments that he has trouble completing. It makes it look like he'd rather work, period, than work on great music. His Shyamalan scores are another story. I think he has two paths he can go down. Beware the path of Jerry. He became known as the guy who would write a score in 2 weeks, and troubled productions constantly took him up on it, more and more post Chinatown. And you know, it shows in the decline in his work in later years. He still had the gems, but the ratio of gem to crap went down.

James! Once you travel down the quick and easy path, forever will it dominate your destiny!

[Incanus 5,714]

True. But has JNH done much of these last minute scoring assignements? I have no idea how much he has done those patch jobs since I have not actively kept up with his career. Shame if JNH will be known as the man who you go to when you have to get a replacement score done in two weeks. That path is definately not satisfying by any standards for a composer (I'd assume one would want more time not less). To be type cast as the reliable replacement score composer who delivers mediocre but functioning score would be horrible.

More Shyamala projects for JNH.

[David Coscina 3]

To my knowledge he wrote Falling Down and Waterworld in the 11th hour as both were replacement scores. Let's remember that longer time doesn't necessarily dictate great results. Elliot Goldenthal had a mere 3 weeks to score Interview with the Vampire and did a remarkable job with it. But Goldenthal is seriously in a different league than Howard. He's a formally trained composer with chops to spare. I would have loved to have heard what he would have written for KONG actually. Or even his mentor John Corigliano.

I think my fundamental problem with Howard is the same problem I have with Zimmer and most rock refugees: their whole harmonic and compositional idiom is very different from that of concert composers or formally trained guys. They have more dependency on shorter themes, less development of said themes, and less inventive orchestration. Howard of course stands apart from most but he still has some of these traits. Listen to the rhythmic material in Kong and you'll realize that the percussion patterns are basically rock/pop ones. Basic duple meter figures with little to no polyrhythms that are found in many other cultural musics.

And I'm listening to Track 20 now and it's bothering me how Howard moves between Shore's LOTR and James Horner's sus4 chords for the climax. It sounds really beautiful but IT'S NOT ORIGINAL. And yeah, I have a problem with this by principle. Especially in light of Shore's removal due to supposed differences in musical ideology. Hey Pete, I guess when you really needed a kick-ass ending, you went back to the Shore style because you knew only that style would truly capture the tragedy of Kong's destiny.

Shame on you Mr. Jackson.

[Jeshopk 8]

Or perhaps Shore refused to ape his LOTR tracks, but JNH was willing... Temp track-itis? Perhaps Shore resisted the choir boy for the fall, because he wanted to differentiate Kong from LOTR...

[David Coscina 3]

I've heard a few things surrouding his dismissal but it's all speculation in my opinion. We'll probably never really know unless Shore speaks out in an interview about what transpired.

[TownerFan 4,983]

I agree with David and Jesse.

This score is un-impressive to say the least. It's all competently orchestrated and played, but not so much different by the usual Hollywood action score (be it by Debney, Howard, Arnold, Gregson-Williams or one of these). I found quite out of place also all the Thomas Newman-isms in the quieter tracks.

The action parts are the ones I found the least interesting. There are a LOT of manic brass and percussion, it's full of odd meters and rhythmic agitation, there's a lot of noise... but in the end, it's not so exciting or well-written. It lacks the compositional precision and integrity of the action pieces of, say, Goldsmith or Williams.

Too bad that Howard Shore's score didn't survive... I was very eager to hear his take on the subject.

[Vaderbait1 1]

It wouldn't surprise me if Shore's KONG is on par with Yared's TROY in terms of beauty, complexity, emotion, and overall musical cohesion.

I must be the only person on earth who thought Yared's TROY was worse than Horners. True, Horners was just a "Best Of" of his past works, but Yared's just didn't have any direction, scope, or development the way Horner's did.

[AI 0]

It's not bad considering he had no time to monkey around. He probably ended up aping parts of his previous scores, but sometimes you have to use guerilla tactics to get the job done.

[Incanus 5,714]

It's not bad considering he had no time to monkey around. He probably ended up aping parts of his previous scores, but sometimes you have to use guerilla tactics to get the job done.

Oh that was clever. I commend you for that cavalcade of simian jokes

[bondo 33]

I think my fundamental problem with Howard is the same problem I have with Zimmer and most rock refugees: their whole harmonic and compositional idiom is very different from that of concert composers or formally trained guys.  They have more dependency on shorter themes, less development of said themes, and less inventive orchestration.

How is this variety at bad thing? By listening to film music, we're already limiting ourselves into a small niche, so it's nice to hear different things.

I also wasn't aware that Waterworld was written late in the game. If so.... wow! I'm impressed with what he came up with in that short of time

[jamesie 1]

Horner disappoints me... He's come out with some great scores... Land Before Time and Legends of the Fall are two that I can think of... very beautiful...

[Lurker 5]

Generic noise. They probably could have gotten the same results with Joel McNeely and maybe saved some money.

Neil

[Saxbabe 28]

Then I'll just sit back and enjoy my "generic noise", thank you...

Greta

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Judging from your Avatar, you are just biased, Greta.

[Lurker 5]

Then I'll just sit back and enjoy my "generic noise", thank you...

Pity that you already have it. I would have given you my copy.

Neil

[Vaderbait1 1]

Well, give me yours then, I haven't heard it yet.

I would agree with the statement of an above poster, though. New composers simply don't understand the use of themes. I'm sure you guys have debated this to death, but I'm new to the "fancier" terms, but isn't leitmotif the term used for themes for individual characters? These almost always strengthen a piece, but instead composers compose an absolutely beautiful theme for a main title, and that's it for the rest of the movie. THey don't even create a theme that can be played in various forms (such as action, romance, tragedy). And then they throw in drum beats for action music.

[bondo 33]

And that has to be the norm for EVERY SINGLE movie?

I'm sorry, but I just don't see a Star Wars/Lord of the Rings/Harry Potter approach working for films like Gone in 60 Seconds, Fast and the Furious, The Bourne Supremacy, The Italian Job, Flightplan, etc. (I could go on but I'll spare you)

And of course the comment about 'new' composers not understanding the theme/leitmotif approach is completely false as well. Giacchino is the primary composer that comes to mind, providing themes and sub-themes in his scores for Medal of Honor and Alias. Same with Harry Gregson-Williams and Narnia, building and altering the main theme throughout the score.

[King Mark 3,631]

What's with the sappy rock love song over the TV spots?Makes me puke.

K.M.

[artyjeffrey 20]

I like JNH, and even though I won't buy everything he puts out automatically, like I do for Williams, I think the material lends itself for good composition, especially from someone whose music is as richly textured and thematically interesting as JNH.

Tim, enjoying his run-on sentence in all its glory.

EDIT:  Also, can I ask how people are even voting?  The score isn't out until the 13th (in the States at least), so we have about another week to go.  Technically, no one here has heard it, yet I see votes casted.  Based on what, 30 second clips?

Tim

Actually, believe it or not, the entire score has been uploaded somewhere (I won't say), and people are already listening to it.

And by the way, I'll be purchasing it!

[Lurker 5]

Also, can I ask how people are even voting?  The score isn't out until the 13th (in the States at least), so we have about another week to go.  Technically, no one here has heard it, yet I see votes casted.  Based on what, 30 second clips?

Someone rightfully flushed this score, but unfortunately the pipes leaked and now it's everywhere.

Neil

[Vaderbait1 1]

And that has to be the norm for EVERY SINGLE movie?

No, not at all. But they get in a habit, and then when they do films that deserve a score, they just use formulaic things. And actually, while I can't remember the theme for Narnia or any ways it was developed, I do remember liking it in the film very much. As always, there are exceptions.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

I must be the only person on earth who thought Yared's TROY was worse than Horners.  True, Horners was just a "Best Of" of his past works, but Yared's just didn't have any direction, scope, or development the way Horner's did.

This is a joke, right? Horner has a schmaltzy love theme sounding like Vaughan-Williams' Tallis-fantasy and Arnold's Stargate, an Achilles theme sounding like American patriotic-army-movie music, a Troy city theme directly lifted from Britten's war requiem, his own danger motive ad nauseum, and some nice generic Horner action writing. Oh, I forgot the generic wailing woman over muted war scenes. All of those have none, or at best a superficial connection to each other.

The things I like about it are 1. the build-up to (not including!) the troy theme in track 2, on its own musical terms... for the scene in the film it was extremely, annoyingly underwhelming. and 2., the drums-only Achilles/Hector fight, though this blueprint comes from Yared's score.

Yared has several great themes which are thoughfully structered and interconnected, developed over the course of the score and used in various guises, intelligent and sometimes (when appropriate) very complex orchestration, some more "original" use of women's voices that seem to have been too harsh for the pleasure of the common test screening visitor, or studio executive (hell, why express PAIN in the score for a painful scene when you can have some standard easy-listening moaning?) and an appropriate sound and style for the setting of the story (No, James, a wailing woman and some additional drums do not constitute an appropriate style).

[publicist 4,643]

Some of 'Kong's action music sounds like Goldsmith with an unhealthy concentration deficiency syndrome.

There's even the 5-note-motif from 'First Blood'. It's halfway competent from a compositional POV, but how many of the same agitated ostinati can you stomach in 70 minutes?

The more romantic material is about as passionate as a whore on a 200pound guy with a leaky neurodermitis.

It's not bad at all...but so cold and calculated that there's no fun or drama in it, whatsoever.

[bondo 33]

I definitely prefer Horner's TROY over Yared's. I didn't at first, but I've come to associate the images with Horner's score.