What music did Horner really "steal" from others?

[Sandor 796]

Lately, I'm into Horner again. I was just wondering: one thing from me really keeps me from enjoying his music 100% are the "claims" that he has lifted a lot of music from other composers. I can live with him rehashing music of his own, but if he really "steals" from others, well, that loses my respect for him.

Can anyone please list the cues that are taken from other works?

Thanks!

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

In The Perfect Storm there is a sequence that is a note-for-note copy of Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet.

In one Titanic's death scenes, there is a straight lift from Williams' Schindler's List.

In Braveheart, there is a love theme varied into a 30 second part so very similar to Maurice Ravel suite, the name of which I can't recall. I'll add it later. Some refer this part similar to Holst's Venus, but it has more similarities with that specific Ravel's work. I will specify its title, I just can't recall it at the moment.

I believe there exist more evidence of such "borrowings". But they don't bother me at all. Like when I popped up Sibelius's symphony and found the first movement to be so reminding of Seven Years in Tibet, I got outflanked. But when Williams borrows, he does so with elegance. He usually flirts with less-known works so it is not that easy to spot such similarity suppose yu're not that much accustomed to classical music.

Roald, try to listen to Ravel's "Tzigane" sonata and you'll hear another Williams classical score. Will you recognize?

Roman

[publicist 4,643]

Do a little search and you should come across multiple topics, alone on this site.

The most 'infamous' seems to be the 'Gayaneh' adagio (Khatchaturian) in the 'Aliens' main title and subsequently in 'Looking for Clues' in 'Clear and Present Danger' up to 'A Beautiful Mind' (Nash Descends into Parcher's World) and numerous others.

'Willow' has Mozart's Requiem in the first 3 Minutes, as the 'danger theme', which originally opens Rachmaninoffs 1. Symphony. He has used it so often, from 'Project X' to 'Troy', it would make my fingertips bleed to list every title.

The main theme from the same score uses Robert Schumanns 'Rheinish Symphony'. But it's brilliantly eclectic.

'Violin Concerto No. 1' (Prokofiev) in 'Fievel's Theme' aka 'An American Tail'.

'The Wooden Prince' (Bartok) opens 'Land before Time'.

'Romeo and Juliet' (Prokofiev) opens 'Stealing the Enterprise'.

'The Klingon Battle'...ad verbatim in 'Battle beyond the Stars'...i really laughed my ass off about that...

But, apart from the last one, Horner USES these themes mostly as a starting point

to create something new. Sadly, these days are long over. Today, he writes too much droning stuff and repeats even the tiniest idea ten times before giving it a rest...the last year was better, though. What i heard from 'New World' is really well written.

[Romão 2,274]

Actually, Braveheart's theme reminds me a lot of Holst's Jupiter.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

'The Wooden Prince' (Bartok) opens 'Land before Time'.

Oops, I never really noticed that. Thanks. I will listen to both works the minute I get home today.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

In one Titanic's death scenes, there is a straight lift from Williams' Schindler's List.

Isnt in Enemy at the gates?

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

I only heard about the Enemy at the Gates so I can't confirm. Put in Titanic soundtrack, skip to track 10 and forward past the 6th minute or so and listen closely.

[Morlock 11]

It's similar, but this is not the kind of blatant rips Horner is known for, the motif resolves itself totally differently.

Horner borrows heavily from Morricone's The Mission in Glory and especialy Bicentennial Man.

And he also blatantly rips Goldsmith's Capricorn One in 'Futile Escape' from Aliens.

He's taken Vaughn Williams' 'Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis' a couple of time, in Glory and Troy.

He was sued and lost over his use of Rota's Amarcord in Honey, I Shrunk the Kids.

His fanfare for Troy was someone else's, but I forget who.

And there are are dozens of otehr examples which I heard abotu but cannot personaly attest to.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

 He was sued and lost over his use of Rota's Amarcord in Honey, I Shrunk the Kids.

He was sued? Is it due to call in justice when it comes to music? Strange.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

I've pointed this out several times, but for completeness's sake: Horner's "Troy" Fanfare (track 2) is a DIRECT lift from Britten's War Requiem (4th mvt, "Sanctus"). Last time I posted the 30-sec sound clips Neil deleted them, so I'll refrain from doing so this time.

[Morlock 11]

 He was sued and lost over his use of Rota's Amarcord in Honey, I Shrunk the Kids.

He was sued? Is it due to call in justice when it comes to music? Strange.

Well, the estate of Nino Rota didn't like Horner stealing Rota's music and calling it his own. I think that's valid. (Rota was credited in the credits because of the suit)

[batmanand 0]

In Troy, the love theme between Achilles and Briseis IS Arnold's Stargate theme.

In Enemy at the Gates, the love theme IS JW's Schindler's List theme.

[Sandor 796]

In Enemy at the Gates, the love theme IS JW's Schindler's List theme.

They sound similar, but it's nowhere near a note-for-note reproduction.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

It was clear enough for me to notice.

- Marc, who identified Horner after hearing just one note of that score.

[Sandor 796]

Like I said; they sound similar. Like Korngold's King's Row and Star Wars.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

the opening of Queen to Bishop from Aliens is pretty much a reworking of part of Chrissie's Death from Jaws.

[Jeshopk 8]

Horner's "Danger motif" is from Prokofiev's "Alexander Nevsky." Horner has time and time again altered Prokofiev's "Battle on the Ice" from Nevsky as well, most recently for the battle scenes in "Troy."

[Ollie 1,059]

Horner also used David Grusin's GOONIES theme in HONEY I SHRUNK THE KIDS, In GLORY he quotes a direct lift from the OUTLAW JOSEY WALES, I'm sure if it was a traditional piece or an original cue that Jerry Fielding wrote for Outlaw but it is a direct copy.

Humanoids Of The Deep also has lifts from JAWS.

The problem with Horner is that he doesn't try to hide what he borrows. He seems to copy note for note. Plus his music has gotten stale and predictable. You know when the clang clang clangs and piano crashes are going to come in any of his scores, when he is going to use the danger motif.

[Melange 446]

Another one to add to the list, is the "Electronic Battlefield" piece from Patriot Games, used in the scene where the Special forces squad attacks the IRA camp at night, in the desert, watched by Greer and Ryan on screen. Much of that music is the Largo movement of Shostaokovich' 5th Symphony. Still works superbly in the scene, but stil is a case of (cue : Richard Harris voice) - "Oh james....you go too far". It's also used later on the Clear and Present Danger during the sequence that publicist attributes to Khachaturian.

[Romão 2,274]

Horner's "Danger motif" is from Prokofiev's "Alexander Nevsky." Horner has time and time again altered Prokofiev's "Battle on the Ice" from Nevsky as well, most recently for the battle scenes in "Troy."

Could you give me track times from Alexander Nevsky where I can listen to the danger theme?

[Ollie 1,059]

Just listen to the Battle on the Ice cue and you'll hear it.

[Trent B 337]

Hell even took direct lifts from one of his scores into others. In his Aliens score I clearly heard the Klingon statement theme in one of the tracks. I laughed when I did hear it. Talk about a direct lift of that theme.

[Jacck 23]

I wonder if he is sub-consciously ripping this stuff..

[Lurker 5]

Hell even took direct lifts from one of his scores into others.  In his Aliens score I clearly heard the Klingon statement theme in one of the tracks.  I laughed when I did hear it.  Talk about a direct lift of that theme.

You mean the Klingon Theme that was heard earlier in 1983's Uncommon Valor?

Neil

[Trent B 337]

Nope the Klingon theme is clearly heard in Horner's Aliens Listen to the track "Ripley's Rescue" from the OST you'll hear it about 5 seconds into the track. Still though it's pretty pathetic when a composer rips off from his previous works from one score into another with direct lifts of themes. :roll:

[codanai 0]

Here are some more:

--> In the main themes to An American Tale he uses a string passage from Borodin's 2nd symphony, 4th movement; and he uses Borodin's In The Steppes of Central Asia, with some variations.

--> Also, whenever the Enterprise takes off in Star Trek II (when Saavik is at the helm), he clearly lifts a trumpet passage from the last movement of Mahler's 1st.

--> And has anyone mentioned "The Fight" theme from Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet? Horner's used it in Willow (the beginning of the wagon race scene) and in Star Trek III (I think around the time when the crew's freeing Bones and trying to escape with the Enterprise).

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

John William's The Rebel Blockade Runner was lifted straight out of Holst's The Br---

Oh James Horner....

Well composers lift from each other all the time...he's just more notorious for it.

[Jeshopk 8]

John William's The Rebel Blockade Runner was lifted straight out of Holst's The Br---

Sorry, Williams did not lift that music at all. It was just that at the time it had been a while since anyone heard any new, rhythmic orchestral music in the context of space. Listen to them side by side and they're as different from one another as the themes from "Raiders" and "Superman"

Williams has never "Pulled a Horner."

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I often hear how The Imperial March is supposedly based on Holst's Mars. I have yet to hear the similarity.

Now Barbarian Horde on the other hand...

[Trent B 337]

I often hear how The Imperial March is supposedly based on Holst's Mars. I have yet to hear the similarity.

Now Barbarian Horde on the other hand...

I've heard Holst' Mars cue and I too have yet to hear the similtarity between that and the Imperial March by Williams.

Williams isn't a hack like Horner is.

[Antineutrino 0]

Am I the only one who finds it somewhat ironic that in a John Williams forum Horner is being critizised for too much borrowings from classical music?

[Albaicin 0]

No, it's not ironic. Most film composers "steal" snippets of other's works. The problem with Horner is his lack of reworking on those themes borrowed from others.

The four-note "danger" motiv, which opens "Willow" and is used ostinato in "Troy" (to mention only two examples) is taken from Rachmaninov's first symphony. The problem is not the borrowing (actually it's only four notes) but Horner's obsesion with that melody, which appears in most of his action scores.

I am not sure, but the fanfare-like theme used in "Troy" is an intelligent rework of the trumpet melody that Shostakovich used in his Fifth symphony, and it is my favorite "stealing" by Horner.

When Williams borrows musical ideas, he disguises them with contemporary harmonies, rythms and orchestrations, but Horner usually leaves them just as he found them.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

No, it's not ironic. Most film composers "steal" snippets of other's works. The problem with Horner is his lack of reworking on those themes borrowed from others.  

The four-note "danger" motiv, which opens "Willow" and is used ostinato in "Troy" (to mention only two examples) is taken from Rachmaninov's first symphony. The problem is not the borrowing (actually it's only four notes) but Horner's obsesion with that melody, which appears in most of his action scores.

I am not sure, but the fanfare-like theme used in "Troy" is an intelligent rework of the trumpet melody that Shostakovich used in his Fifth symphony, and it is my favorite "stealing" by Horner.

When Williams borrows musical ideas, he disguises them with contemporary harmonies, rythms and orchestrations, but Horner usually leaves them just as he found them.

Exactly.

[GoodMusician 56]

The Lion King/Gladiator (as they are both from the same music) has many of the same sounds, chord progressions, if not just the same music as the introduction to Sibelius Finlandia (when the strings come in)... there is one part that is almost exactly the same... right before the tempo nearly doubles...

[Ollie 1,059]

At least Williams will acknowledge his nods to classical music and frankly I find alot of the comparisons to really be stretching things. There are slight and I do mean slight nods to Mars in Star Wars and the same can be said for Kings Row. You can hear where Williams may have been influenced by previous composers in his music but nothing that would convince me that Williams blatantly copied note for note.

Horner is way too obvious and quite frankly his music has become boring.

[Jacck 23]

Lol. People here are very narrow minded and naive if they think that Williams hasn't ripped parts of other composer's works, be it subconscious or conscious...

And when I say rip, I mean basically note-for-note in some cases.

[GoodMusician 56]

no one said he didin't, someone just asked about James Horner, so people answered... if someone asked about JW, you'd get an asnwer too lol

[Antineutrino 0]

No, it's not ironic. Most film composers "steal" snippets of other's works. The problem with Horner is his lack of reworking on those themes borrowed from others.  

The four-note "danger" motiv, which opens "Willow" and is used ostinato in "Troy" (to mention only two examples) is taken from Rachmaninov's first symphony. The problem is not the borrowing (actually it's only four notes) but Horner's obsesion with that melody, which appears in most of his action scores.

I am not sure, but the fanfare-like theme used in "Troy" is an intelligent rework of the trumpet melody that Shostakovich used in his Fifth symphony, and it is my favorite "stealing" by Horner.

When Williams borrows musical ideas, he disguises them with contemporary harmonies, rythms and orchestrations, but Horner usually leaves them just as he found them.

Please tell me where's the differece between Holst and John Willams in Star Wars when the Death Star explodes or bewtween Conti and Williams in Hook (http://www.mettlerweb.de/composer/0026.html).

[Romão 2,274]

Sorry, I really don't see much of a resemblance between those two examples.

[Joni Wiljami 1,206]

No, it's not ironic. Most film composers "steal" snippets of other's works. The problem with Horner is his lack of reworking on those themes borrowed from others.  

The four-note "danger" motiv, which opens "Willow" and is used ostinato in "Troy" (to mention only two examples) is taken from Rachmaninov's first symphony. The problem is not the borrowing (actually it's only four notes) but Horner's obsesion with that melody, which appears in most of his action scores.

I am not sure, but the fanfare-like theme used in "Troy" is an intelligent rework of the trumpet melody that Shostakovich used in his Fifth symphony, and it is my favorite "stealing" by Horner.

When Williams borrows musical ideas, he disguises them with contemporary harmonies, rythms and orchestrations, but Horner usually leaves them just as he found them.

Please tell me where's the differece between Holst and John Willams in Star Wars when the Death Star explodes or bewtween Conti and Williams in Hook (http://www.mettlerweb.de/composer/0026.html).

Between the Right Stuff and Hook not that much. But you have to compare

right stuff(later coming in that theme)to tchaikovskys violin concerto.

That is stealing... shame on you pjotr!

EDIT:Oh,that was also in that list,I didnt see it,sorry

[Romão 2,274]

Some of those examples are really forced. Others, not so much.

[Antineutrino 0]

Holst or Williams?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Holst or Williams?

Obviously Holst...the Blockade Runner doesn't end like that...or have as much low-frequency oomph....and William's is fasterr!

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Sounds more like the final moments before the Death Star is blown up than Rebel Blockade Runner.

This one sounds obvious to me, though.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

You know...there have even been times I've constructed tunes in my OWN head...out of what I think is my own creative and unique mind...that's not on sale or pressed to a CD or in a film anywhere, only to have them stolen by some composer...

A lot of times these similarities are coincidences. Extraordinary in appearance, but more common than one can expect.

[deimos 0]

I don't know why The Nutcracker Suite and Holiday Flight haven't appeared by now. Or is it so obvious that you have to assume it's an homage?

[Sandor 796]

I still didn't hear Horner rip another composer of note-for-note. The closest I heard was Schumann "Rhenish Symphony" - Willow, but apart from that...

What piece is really a note-for-note rip-off?

[batmanand 0]

Troy love theme - prominently heard in track Achilles and Briseis - is a note-for-note rip of Arnold's Stargate theme.

[Melange 446]

I don't know why The Nutcracker Suite and Holiday Flight haven't appeared by now. Or is it so obvious that you have to assume it's an homage?

Yes, it's unashamedly similar. No doubt. But to me, this thread is about identifying Horner's use of structures from existing classical works though. Most people acknowledge that Williams has also heavily borrowed structures from existing classical work, and there have even be threads on that here, in the past. Afterall, areas of Harry Potter are very much borrowed from Elfman's Edward Scissorhands (imo) in terms of the fairy land style . So i don't think this is a case of Horner bashing, and ignoring John's tendency. Most people here would admit that Horner is not the only one. Just, this thread is about Horner and identifying pieces he's emulated.

[Antineutrino 0]

Troy love theme - prominently heard in track Achilles and Briseis - is a note-for-note rip of Arnold's Stargate theme.

Did you ever listened to Glory track 6 or Ralph Vaughn Willams' Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis?