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OK so here goes....   Here's a one minute's slow section of an 11 minute piece I just wrote, orchestrated and recorded in Nov. The world premiere is supposed to happen later

Here's my latest composition:     The first few seconds have been floating around inside my head for the best part of a year, so I finally decided to make something out of it!

My piano concerto album is finally out on youtube/itunes.  Recorded at Abbey Road - hope you enjoy.     

  • 2 weeks later...

Bump, sorry for the double post. I just finished this track that I showed off a little bit of in the Star Wars Squadrons thread. It's a re-orchestration of a track from Chris Huelsbeck's Rogue Squadron (N64/PC) Still needs some tweaking here and there but I wanted to finish the main body before I start micro-managing myself. Also need to write a little tag at the end to finish it off. I want to do the other few tracks that make up the Tatooine level of the game and maybe edit together a little suite with the whole thing all together, which is going to be...interesting to try to make everything flow.
 

https://clyp.it/gpjtn0jo

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On 8/20/2020 at 5:31 PM, TheAvengerButton said:

I'll check out Berlin Strings then. I've been purchasing my instruments piecemeal since I am the literal definition of a starving artist.

 

The sound of Berlin Strings is amazing, but the articulation list is disappointing for the price. 900 Euros for no flautando, no harmonics, no flageolet, no trills beyond a whole step, no FX (not even one), no real marcato. 

You need to spend another 300 for "special bows" and another 300 for FX. The playable glissandi are unique, but for that price, the complete package is a bit lacking. 

I also find the interface a bit unintuitive. You can't assign individual keyswitches either. 

I bought Spitfire Brass and love it. The interface is so intuitive and simple. If I had the choice again, I'd choose Spitfire Strings. 

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6 hours ago, gkgyver said:

 

The sound of Berlin Strings is amazing, but the articulation list is disappointing for the price. 900 Euros for no flautando, no harmonics, no flageolet, no trills beyond a whole step, no FX (not even one), no real marcato. 

You need to spend another 300 for "special bows" and another 300 for FX. The playable glissandi are unique, but for that price, the complete package is a bit lacking. 

I also find the interface a bit unintuitive. You can't assign individual keyswitches either. 

I bought Spitfire Brass and love it. The interface is so intuitive and simple. If I had the choice again, I'd choose Spitfire Strings. 

Yeah Berlin and Spitfire are pretty much the cream of the crop but don't pretend spitfire is the economic choice.  They are guilty of exactly what you are accusing Berlin of.  In short, you need either or both...and it doesn't come cheaply.  You are asking for the best sound, most articulation, and cheap.  Choose two.

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1 hour ago, karelm said:

Yeah Berlin and Spitfire are pretty much the cream of the crop but don't pretend spitfire is the economic choice.  They are guilty of exactly what you are accusing Berlin of.  In short, you need either or both...and it doesn't come cheaply.  You are asking for the best sound, most articulation, and cheap.  Choose two.

 

Actually, I didn't ask for cheap anywhere.           

I said Berlin Strings, which they should call "Core" really, offers too little articulations for being 100 Euros more expensive than SSS, which offers more articulations. 

And for articulations that come with SSS, you need to spend an additional 300.

 

I don't "pretend" anything. I find the Spitfire interface wildly more accessible. You can do pretty much anything with very few clicks. 

Capsule makes things needlessly more complicated. 

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14 hours ago, gkgyver said:

 

The sound of Berlin Strings is amazing, but the articulation list is disappointing for the price. 900 Euros for no flautando, no harmonics, no flageolet, no trills beyond a whole step, no FX (not even one), no real marcato. 

You need to spend another 300 for "special bows" and another 300 for FX. The playable glissandi are unique, but for that price, the complete package is a bit lacking. 

I also find the interface a bit unintuitive. You can't assign individual keyswitches either. 

I bought Spitfire Brass and love it. The interface is so intuitive and simple. If I had the choice again, I'd choose Spitfire Strings. 

I love Spitfire products. Definitely going to be buying more stuff from them when the money comes my way. I just bought the Spitfire Originals Brass and Woodwind recently and I want to get the Originals Strings set to match (that kind of gives you a glimpse into my budget, here). Foe how limited they are they still give a good performance.

 

I also discovered that I could purchase individual instruments through SINE Player for relatively low prices, I'm going to see about some of those.

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2 hours ago, gkgyver said:

Not sure why karelm started to budget shame. It's ok to have a budget. 

Spitfire originals look like a really cool toy. Tempted to try the Percussion one. 

I'm not budget shaming.  I'm saying spitfire and berlin both sound great but spitfire doesn't include articulations so you have to compare apples to apples.  To get spitfire to have the same articulations, you are going to pay alot more than the $300 per version. 

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12 hours ago, TheAvengerButton said:

I love Spitfire products. Definitely going to be buying more stuff from them when the money comes my way. I just bought the Spitfire Originals Brass and Woodwind recently and I want to get the Originals Strings set to match (that kind of gives you a glimpse into my budget, here). Foe how limited they are they still give a good performance.

 

I also discovered that I could purchase individual instruments through SINE Player for relatively low prices, I'm going to see about some of those.

 

Do the Woodwinds in Original Woodwinds go as far down as Contrabassoon register? 

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What? 

It's an ensemble library. The instruments are spread out according to their register over several octaves. 

I'm asking if there is contrabassoon in there, or if it stops at the lowest bassoon note. 

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4 hours ago, gkgyver said:

What? 

It's an ensemble library. The instruments are spread out according to their register over several octaves. 

I'm asking if there is contrabassoon in there, or if it stops at the lowest bassoon note. 

Ignore him, he thinks he is funny.

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10 hours ago, gkgyver said:

 

Do the Woodwinds in Original Woodwinds go as far down as Contrabassoon register? 

Lowest note is Bb0 for Woodwinds with a nice contrabassoon growl.

 

Also I don't know anything about embedding because I'm a loser but I upload all my stuff to Clyp.it and then just link it here. Doesn't take but a few seconds for the load times.

 

Anyone have any tips for reverb? I'm trying to get a good scoring stage sound for an orchestra. I've sent all my instruments to a reverb bus so that everything sounds like it's happening in the same room, but then some of the instruments sound too drowned in reverb while others don't. Any mixing tricks I'm missing, here?

 

Also, on another note, SINE Player and Orchestral Tools are really making my day, here. I just found a great Muted Brass patch from one of the Metropolis Ark libraries as an individual instrument for only 19 bucks, and it sounds fantastic. Really got that sound I wanted, and now all I need for the moment is some good instrument patches in woodwind and strings with a gliss/porta voicing.

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On 9/1/2020 at 8:34 AM, TheAvengerButton said:

Lowest note is Bb0 for Woodwinds with a nice contrabassoon growl.

 

Also I don't know anything about embedding because I'm a loser but I upload all my stuff to Clyp.it and then just link it here. Doesn't take but a few seconds for the load times.

 

Anyone have any tips for reverb? I'm trying to get a good scoring stage sound for an orchestra. I've sent all my instruments to a reverb bus so that everything sounds like it's happening in the same room, but then some of the instruments sound too drowned in reverb while others don't. Any mixing tricks I'm missing, here?

 

Also, on another note, SINE Player and Orchestral Tools are really making my day, here. I just found a great Muted Brass patch from one of the Metropolis Ark libraries as an individual instrument for only 19 bucks, and it sounds fantastic. Really got that sound I wanted, and now all I need for the moment is some good instrument patches in woodwind and strings with a gliss/porta voicing.

 

I hear good things about East West Spaces Reverb. 

As for the mixing, do you apply EQ? If you use a lot of Spitfire, those come with the natural reverb of the hall, so you may ease up on the reverb there, while Berlin is a bit on the drier side. Maybe layer some close mic samples for prominent lines, for more definition. And play with the mic positions (if those are available in the Originals series). 

The Berlin Strings Legato patches automatically apply a portamento when you play a line and apply the highest velocity to any given note. 

 

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I actually find that the Orchestral Tools patches that I have contain a bit more ambient space sound to them, while I can turn down the room ambience on my Spitfire instruments and effectively make them dry as all get out.

 

I found a work around for the reverb though--I've got several going to the bus now--one that is a bit of a smaller space and one that is larger. This gives me (for now) a sound that I'm satisfied with outside of EQing...that comes next. I'm taking this piecemeal. And also, I'm learning all of this as I go. I am a hobbyist, after all. I'm watching videos of people talking about composing with virtual instruments and a lot of the lingo and terminology is going WAY over my head. 

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1 hour ago, TheAvengerButton said:

I actually find that the Orchestral Tools patches that I have contain a bit more ambient space sound to them, while I can turn down the room ambience on my Spitfire instruments and effectively make them dry as all get out.

 

I found a work around for the reverb though--I've got several going to the bus now--one that is a bit of a smaller space and one that is larger. This gives me (for now) a sound that I'm satisfied with outside of EQing...that comes next. I'm taking this piecemeal. And also, I'm learning all of this as I go. I am a hobbyist, after all. I'm watching videos of people talking about composing with virtual instruments and a lot of the lingo and terminology is going WAY over my head. 

 

You're doing what I'm doing. Only that I've been doing it longer. 

I started with Gigastudio about 17 years ago LOL  

You have Metropolis Ark samples from Orchestral Tools, don't you? You mentioned the Sine Player, I think only part of their libraries are available for Sine Player yet. And I think the Ark series has a bigger sound. 

 

By the way, I downloaded Epic Brass and Woodwinds. That's a really cool and uncomplicated tool. 

 

Do you have something to listen to? 

 

Did you download the free BBC Symphony Orchestra by the way? Or Project Sam's free orchestra? 

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19 hours ago, gkgyver said:

 

You're doing what I'm doing. Only that I've been doing it longer. 

I started with Gigastudio about 17 years ago LOL  

You have Metropolis Ark samples from Orchestral Tools, don't you? You mentioned the Sine Player, I think only part of their libraries are available for Sine Player yet. And I think the Ark series has a bigger sound. 

 

By the way, I downloaded Epic Brass and Woodwinds. That's a really cool and uncomplicated tool. 

 

Do you have something to listen to? 

 

Did you download the free BBC Symphony Orchestra by the way? Or Project Sam's free orchestra? 

 

Most of what I use is free stuff. i have BBC Symphony Orchestra and Project Sam's free orchestra as well as Layers, as well as a few individual patches I've bought here and there, like Epic Brass and Woodwinds and such. Oh, and I also have Palette Primary Colors which is a really nice little ditty, I don't have a full instance of Kontakt though so I have to work with the limitations of that. I really like the Orchestral Tools libraries that I've experimented with so far, but I really like the Spitfire stuff. 

 

I really don't have an ear for EQing just yet--I'm just not sure what to listen for.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm bumping again because I want to write down some thoughts, here.

 

I just discovered the really cool Bernard Herrmann Composer Toolkit tonight after a long time of not knowing it was a thing despite almost constantly hovering on the Spitfire page wishing I had enough money to get a library and I had a listen, and it was everything I could ever want in an Orchestral library. The ambiance of the recording was perfect, I loved the articulations and the quirks of a Herrmann score that it managed to bring out and it was just a perfect package. The only thing is is that it's not the be all, end all of virtual orchestration as it relies on combinations instead of getting the best out of individual sections, but that seems to be more due to trying to really hammer home those Herrmann stylings. However, it did convince me that the orchestra that I really want to get in the future is the Spitfire Studio Orchestra. it was recorded in the same space and sounds fantastic. Only issue I can find at this point is the lack of a percussive section, which really, why would you not have a percussion section in a studio orchestra?

 

But as far as the rest of the package goes, I think that's the one I am going to get once i get the money for it. Today is a historic day for me as far as decision making goes. Now I just have to figure out what to do about the percussion.

 

EDIT: I guess I can always try out the Originals Cinematic Percussion, as it's, you know, cheap.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/19/2020 at 7:56 AM, Loert said:

My latest composition for orchestra:

 

 

 

Wow, those Orchestral Tools libraries sound great. Fantastic composition too, I'm very envious.

 

I've been working on my reverb arrangement and I've got something that I am somewhat happy with: 

 

https://clyp.it/v01fgxus

 

I need more/better sounds to fill in the empty spaces in this particular arrangement (still don't have a better orchestra yet, someone recommended me Nucleus instead of Spitfire Studio and I'm trying to choose between them), but I think the reverb plugin I have sounds pretty okay. Got an early reflections bus for the entire room, as well as different buses for the string, woodwinds, and brass sections...20% wet small hall, 30% medium hall, and 50% medium hall respectively.

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1 hour ago, gkgyver said:

VSL has individual instruments for download as well.

But...do I need to purchase a new key for every instrument I buy?

 

I was wanting to see about their Big Bang Orchestra freebie but I didn't want to just buy a key to use it. Not that I'm cheap, but if I'm going to buy one of their keys I might as well buy a full patch of something.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for the retrospective! 

 

1 hour ago, karelm said:

5. It's very important to understand the words of John Adams who said in his blog "Do not be surprised if at the first rehearsal of your music you don't recognize the work as being your own piece".  Very, very true.  A composer needs to have an out of body experience for the first few rehearsals because it sounds nothing like what you spent the past year writing!  Eventually it will surprise you and coalesce. With a great orchestra, it will surprise you!  You'll hear things you never imagined!

 

I wish someone had told me this when I started. It's harder to think of a case where you're so riddled with self-doubt and insecurity than when a group plays something you wrote for the first time--or several--and you can't even tell what the music is.

 

I learnt several things during that process: one, sometimes the best players in the world can't make something you wrote work the way you think if you didn't write it that way. For example, wanting a piece to sound soft and light at a section when you crammed the music into so many different instruments in mid-low registers.

 

Two, learning to stop being so overwhelmed by the disappointment of that first time, accept it, and objectively analyzing what it is in front of you and work from there to bridge the gap between your mind's ear and where the musicians are at.

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I have EastWest Composer Cloud right now. It has so many patches for everything and I'm at a loss about how to use it. On top of that, I don't have a professional DAW with practical velocity and volume tools...

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20 minutes ago, Drew said:

I have EastWest Composer Cloud right now. It has so many patches for everything and I'm at a loss about how to use it. On top of that, I don't have a professional DAW with practical velocity and volume tools...

 

What DAW do you use? And what OS are you on?

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1 minute ago, Drew said:

Windows. I use Cakewalk and tried Reaper.

 

Awww, shame, I know it's been around forever and was the standard for MIDI back in the day. The different pencil tools et cetera don't do it for you? Functionally speaking you won't find tools in other DAWs to be much different. 

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1 minute ago, Nick Parker said:

 

Awww, shame, I know it's been around forever and was the standard for MIDI back in the day. The different pencil tools et cetera don't do it for you? Functionally speaking you won't find tools in other DAWs to be much different. 

 

I can write MIDI notes but I don't think Cakewalk lets me change the velocity in the middle of a note. Just 1 velocity per note.

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26 minutes ago, Drew said:

 

I can write MIDI notes but I don't think Cakewalk lets me change the velocity in the middle of a note. Just 1 velocity per note.

 

I think what you're referring to is more of a MIDI thing than a Cakewalk thing, if I'm understanding you. MIDI Velocity only refers to the velocity of the note when it's first played--it's just how the MIDI language was set up in the 80's. I haven't used East West, but any relatively modern, decent orchestral library should have the ability to change dynamics, well, dynamically by use of a MIDI Control Change (CC), most commonly CC1: Modulation. Most MIDI keyboards have a modulation wheel, almost always to the left of the keybed itself, that allows you to control this in real-time, while performing the notes themselves with the other hand.

 

In most DAWs, you should have the ability to pull up a "lane" (as Cubase calls it) with the CC parameters you wish to manipulate; again, CC1 (modulation) in this case probably. From there, you should be able to use the DAW tools, usually a pencil, to draw an "envelope"--different levels of the parameter from 0-127, per MIDI standards, depending on however you want to affect the sound.

 

So for example, say you have  a trumpet note held for a 4/4 bar that you want soft for 3 beats, then make a loud and dramatic crescendo on the final beat. In the CC1 lane, you might want it from beats 1-3 to start at a lower number, like 50, depending on how your particular virtual instrument corresponds with the CC information. Then, on the fourth beat, you use your DAW's drawing tool and draw a ramp from that first number to a much higher one--if you want to go all the way, draw that ramp all the way up there to 127! 

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This has me sold on wanting BBC Symphony Orchestra Professional. I'm a huge believer that the mix makes the quality go up or down. Spitfire does have steep prices but hopefully there's a good Black Friday deal.

 

 

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17 hours ago, karelm said:

5. It's very important to understand the words of John Adams who said in his blog "Do not be surprised if at the first rehearsal of your music you don't recognize the work as being your own piece".  Very, very true.  A composer needs to have an out of body experience for the first few rehearsals because it sounds nothing like what you spent the past year writing!  I recall a rehearsal where a percussionist got lost and where smashing away a bar off throughout!  Eventually it will coalesce and maybe even surprise you. With a great orchestra, it will surpass your expectations!  You'll hear things you never imagined in your own work!

 

I've always wondered how much this applies to somebody like John Williams, who obviously has a lot of experience hearing his music played by orchestra. Does he know exactly how his music will sound in the recording hall, or does he still get "surprised"? I realise that if he were to borrow something virtually verbatim from one of his previous scores, then he will know what it sounds like already...but I wonder how "surprised" he gets when he hears the orchestra play something he isn't used to writing. (An example might be the Conveyor music from Star Wars II, which is relatively novel for Williams).

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2 hours ago, Loert said:

 

I've always wondered how much this applies to somebody like John Williams, who obviously has a lot of experience hearing his music played by orchestra. Does he know exactly how his music will sound in the recording hall, or does he still get "surprised"? I realise that if he were to borrow something virtually verbatim from one of his previous scores, then he will know what it sounds like already...but I wonder how "surprised" he gets when he hears the orchestra play something he isn't used to writing. (An example might be the Conveyor music from Star Wars II, which is relatively novel for Williams).

 

I mean people like him get the rare luxury of having an orchestra play his material almost instantaneously. Maybe this isn't exactly what you mean, but we've seen numerous recording session footage where Williams--and others such as Goldsmith--make changes on the podium.

3 hours ago, Drew said:

This has me sold on wanting BBC Symphony Orchestra Professional. I'm a huge believer that the mix makes the quality go up or down. Spitfire does have steep prices but hopefully there's a good Black Friday deal.

 

Did you have a chance to try out that stuff I mentioned last time?

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image.png

 

Is there a way to use this tool on Cakewalk? I think it's dynamics.

1 hour ago, Nick Parker said:

Did you have a chance to try out that stuff I mentioned last time?

 

Not yet

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1 minute ago, Nick Parker said:

 

I tried to make my post last night as succinct and thorough as possible, addressing this at depth. Was there anything in it that confused you?

 

No, I will looks at it again. It looks so easy in Logic but the Cakewalk UI is confusing at times.

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4 minutes ago, Drew said:

 

No, I will looks at it again. It looks so easy in Logic but the Cakewalk UI is confusing at times.

 

That I can agree with. It's a very good and powerful DAW--and the fact that it's now free is absolutely nuts. But there are decisions they made that can be nonplussing. ( I hate how you have to create MIDI events for example. In a lot of other DAWs all you have to do is take a pencil and draw any number of bars that you want to fill in. Boom, that's it.)

 

Unfortunately, since the company that now owns it basically brought it back from the dead, they seem content to keep it basically in cryogenic status...I'm not sure how much they intend to update it as Sonar did before they collapsed.

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Yeahhhh it's best to stay away from those. Even Cubase, robust as its score editor is, is clunky as all get out.

 

Best to get used to piano roll notation, then convert it to a MIDI file or something to import into a real notation program.

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5 hours ago, Loert said:

 

I've always wondered how much this applies to somebody like John Williams, who obviously has a lot of experience hearing his music played by orchestra. Does he know exactly how his music will sound in the recording hall, or does he still get "surprised"? I realise that if he were to borrow something virtually verbatim from one of his previous scores, then he will know what it sounds like already...but I wonder how "surprised" he gets when he hears the orchestra play something he isn't used to writing. (An example might be the Conveyor music from Star Wars II, which is relatively novel for Williams).

Excellent question.  Would be a great question to ask him if he ever did an audience Q&A.  If I were to speculate, he for sure makes adjustments on the stand which to me implies "accidents and surprises" are part of his process.  One of the trumpet players on SW TROS said he had to stay on stage even if there was no music for him because a part might suddenly appear.  We should also keep in mind in film music, the composer might feel strongly about the music but the director has a contrasting opinion that must be accommodated on the fly.  I strongly believe we crafts concert music with the performers.  Andrew Bain (Principal horn of LA Phil and first horn on TFA and TLJ) said there were sequences scored for solo horn that JW wanted 8 horns to play after hearing it (or vise versa...don't remember exactly). Herb Spencer was impactful on JW's compositional process by feedback of what was being written.   I was there for rehearsals of the Horn Concerto and there were frequent discussions and adjustments.  You could say that is a working professional's version of adjusting to the surprises because if this wasn't unexpected, it would have been in the score already I would think.  I just think at his age, he has so much experience that he already knows that will happen.  How many versions of his Violin Concerto have there been?  I will say, we know this happens with his film scores too.  He calls JAKM and tells them he's made a revision and wants it revised and this includes the old "golden age" scores.  The huge bulk of these are undetectable to most of us but sometimes they are significant new versions.  He is apparently someone who frequently revises his works...always finds reason to adjust something.  Wouldn't you say that is evidence that what he gets doesn't fully match what he intended?

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11 hours ago, Drew said:

This has me sold on wanting BBC Symphony Orchestra Professional. I'm a huge believer that the mix makes the quality go up or down. Spitfire does have steep prices but hopefully there's a good Black Friday deal.

 

 

Ironically enough, I decided that BBCSO was going to be my choice fairly recently. I LOVE Spitfire's orchestras. IMO they are the best sounding stuff on the market even if they are not the most comprehensive. I was originally wanting the Studio Orchestra, but I was turned off from the fact that the Core version didn't come with a Percussion section. Then I found Nucleus and thought that could be a good place to start, as it is low on gig and high on versatility. At one point I also flirted with getting Sonuscore's The Orchestra Complete 2 for it's Engine. But now I've come back around to the BBC Symphony Orchestra Core because I like it's more classic sound. I think I can pull of some good JW pastiche with it, but it's also a more professional sounding system to where I can potentially put it to work outside of being a hobbyist.

 

Aa for DAW, I use Studio One Artist 4 and I highly recommend it to you. I've paid to have some Professional features unlocked. About the only thing I can't do is Mastering and there are some clear and easy work arounds for that. Studio One is really easy to manage while still feeling absolutely professional. It doesn't hold your hand, but it's got some surprising depth to help you create whatever you want to create.

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3 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

A little while back, I mentioned that I had done work on an upcoming album...and now it's about here! The album releases on Tuesday the 27th, but is available for pre-order now. The pre-order has four tracks currently available as a demo of sorts, and of the 43(!) tracks on the album, mine was one of four to be chosen for immediate access!

 

https://bandcamp.materiacollective.com/track/alone-in-the-town

 

Taking the original composition from Akira Yamaoka, I had the opportunity to imagine it through my own lens, while still incorporating certain musique concrete elements that he's employed over the years. Lots of mangled saxophone, voice recordings, and music stands ahoy!

  

Wow I really love your music.

 

I bought the album!

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3 hours ago, Nick Parker said:

A little while back, I mentioned that I had done work on an upcoming album...and now it's about here! The album releases on Tuesday the 27th, but is available for pre-order now. The pre-order has four tracks currently available as a demo of sorts, and of the 43(!) tracks on the album, mine was one of four to be chosen for immediate access!

 

https://bandcamp.materiacollective.com/track/alone-in-the-town

 

Taking the original composition from Akira Yamaoka, I had the opportunity to imagine it through my own lens, while still incorporating certain musique concrete elements that he's employed over the years. Lots of mangled saxophone, voice recordings, and music stands ahoy!

Pretty nice!

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