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Been working on putting together some "demos" for myself to put on a soundcloud so I can show my work and help nab a composing gig. I have this piece of music that I have written for a hypothetical fantasy game, and I've used multiple libraries to create the sound that I wanted. I've decided that this piece would be good to learn how to mix orchestral music, because I don't know fuck all about it. I work nights, so I spend those nights by myself watching videos of mixing tutorials and what not and I still can't wrap my head around any of it, specifically reverb.

So, apparently it's ideal to add reverb to a piece that uses multiple libraries to help them blend and sound like they are coming from the same space, but even more important is just giving everything space in general. From what I've gathered there are several techniques for providing reverb, and I've practically tried them all and I'm not getting the result I want. You can have one reverb signal on a bus and mess with the sends for all the individual instruments, but when I do this it blows my gains up and makes the track unworkable due to excess clipping. I can add a room reverb and add reverbs to instrument groups but this just tends to bury the instruments further despite me playing with the mix and the wet/dry knobs. And then there's having multiple reverb signals on a single bus, both convolution and algorithmic to really unlock certain sounds, but that doesn't seem to be working out for me either. Just more drowning. My orchestra always ends up sounding muted despite my best efforts.

Basically, when I listen to professional mixes of orchestra music, in particular synthetic orchestral music, the produced tracks have a tendency to sound in my ears like the instruments are all still..."up front" with the reverb adding just a tail in the background. However, when I try to add reverb to my orchestra it basically just makes everything drown, no matter what room size I am adding to it. My ideal reverb mix would be one that doesn't sound muddier than my dry mix, but with that nice little reverberation hitting in the back just right and I can't seem to do that. I've been a hobbyist composer for a while and I think I can write a good piece, but when it comes to more of the production side of things I can't seem to wrap my head around it and I need to be able to do that if I want to do this professionally. When it comes to reverb, EQ, and compression, I get the basic concepts. I've watched and read countless tutorials that are very informative, but putting what I've learned into practice I can never seem to get the same results I want and I end up tweaking myself into a sonic grave. I can't seem to train my ear correctly with EQ/Compression, and while I understand what it takes to define a room and instrument placements in a room with reverb nothing seems to work out.

Here is my dry mix of Fantasy Theme:

https://clyp.it/kmn0cqpd

I couldn't really eliminate the room out of a lot of my samples, so there are a few different rooms in the mix. They say you can EQ those out, but once again I haven't been able to do that. The song itself is not done by any means, I just wanted to practice with mixing things.

Here is the same song, but with some reverb added on a single channel.

https://clyp.it/5yujvadd

I was using MConvolutionEZ for my reverb, but it was too much, even with smaller rooms, so I've gone back to using Studio One's basic presets for Room Reverb.

Any tips on how to make this better?

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OK so here goes....   Here's a one minute's slow section of an 11 minute piece I just wrote, orchestrated and recorded in Nov. The world premiere is supposed to happen later

My piano concerto album is finally out on youtube/itunes.  Recorded at Abbey Road - hope you enjoy.     

Here's my latest composition:     The first few seconds have been floating around inside my head for the best part of a year, so I finally decided to make something out of it!

56 minutes ago, TheAvengerButton said:

Been working on putting together some "demos" for myself to put on a soundcloud so I can show my work and help nab a composing gig. I have this piece of music that I have written for a hypothetical fantasy game, and I've used multiple libraries to create the sound that I wanted. I've decided that this piece would be good to learn how to mix orchestral music, because I don't know fuck all about it. I work nights, so I spend those nights by myself watching videos of mixing tutorials and what not and I still can't wrap my head around any of it, specifically reverb.

So, apparently it's ideal to add reverb to a piece that uses multiple libraries to help them blend and sound like they are coming from the same space, but even more important is just giving everything space in general. From what I've gathered there are several techniques for providing reverb, and I've practically tried them all and I'm not getting the result I want. You can have one reverb signal on a bus and mess with the sends for all the individual instruments, but when I do this it blows my gains up and makes the track unworkable due to excess clipping. I can add a room reverb and add reverbs to instrument groups but this just tends to bury the instruments further despite me playing with the mix and the wet/dry knobs. And then there's having multiple reverb signals on a single bus, both convolution and algorithmic to really unlock certain sounds, but that doesn't seem to be working out for me either. Just more drowning. My orchestra always ends up sounding muted despite my best efforts.

Basically, when I listen to professional mixes of orchestra music, in particular synthetic orchestral music, the produced tracks have a tendency to sound in my ears like the instruments are all still..."up front" with the reverb adding just a tail in the background. However, when I try to add reverb to my orchestra it basically just makes everything drown, no matter what room size I am adding to it. My ideal reverb mix would be one that doesn't sound muddier than my dry mix, but with that nice little reverberation hitting in the back just right and I can't seem to do that. I've been a hobbyist composer for a while and I think I can write a good piece, but when it comes to more of the production side of things I can't seem to wrap my head around it and I need to be able to do that if I want to do this professionally. When it comes to reverb, EQ, and compression, I get the basic concepts. I've watched and read countless tutorials that are very informative, but putting what I've learned into practice I can never seem to get the same results I want and I end up tweaking myself into a sonic grave. I can't seem to train my ear correctly with EQ/Compression, and while I understand what it takes to define a room and instrument placements in a room with reverb nothing seems to work out.

Here is my dry mix of Fantasy Theme:

https://clyp.it/kmn0cqpd

I couldn't really eliminate the room out of a lot of my samples, so there are a few different rooms in the mix. They say you can EQ those out, but once again I haven't been able to do that. The song itself is not done by any means, I just wanted to practice with mixing things.

Here is the same song, but with some reverb added on a single channel.

https://clyp.it/5yujvadd

I was using MConvolutionEZ for my reverb, but it was too much, even with smaller rooms, so I've gone back to using Studio One's basic presets for Room Reverb.

Any tips on how to make this better?

 

One issue is your samples aren't that great.  The newer ones already have the room in the mix which goes a long way and then you might just add a very little amount at the end to finish it off.  Less is more.  Keep in mind the mid frequencies build up with samples in a way that isn't realistic as if all the orchestra being recorded together because each sample has mid frequencies you are piling it on and need to dip the mids in orchestral music like this.  I hate the close mic + reverb sound, it's very unnatural.  High frequencies tend to get lost in distance so if you do a low pass filter (allow the lower frequencies to pass through where the higher frequencies are reduced) and this helps it sound further in the mix.  You also aren't using a lot of mod wheel/automation but that might be a result of your samples.  This results in the music not having realistic phrases but sampled phrasing.  You might want to play around with Virtual Sound Stage 2 which lets you move audio around a virtual stage and helps with pushing audio back in the mix.  I like to have the strings in front, the winds behind them, and the brass behind the winds.  It gets really complex when you are mixing a live player (recorded in a room) with samples from various libraries (some with room mics, some with close/spot mics) but with these EQ tips that can help or Virtual Sound Stage pretty much does that EQ trick automatically.

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  • 1 month later...

X-Wing Chase Rescore

 

I did a little rescore for one of my favorite scenes in the new season of The Mandalorian.

 

Tried my best at some Williams pastiche but I think it came out a little closer to Giacchino, which is still okay. Come to think of it I'm not sure if this can be counted as a rescore since the original clip didn't have music to begin with.

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A concept/demo I wrote for a cartoon/animated short following the adventures of the Tico sisters, introduced in TLJ. Inspired by the wonderful art of Nicoletta Baldari and following the lead of Ryan Shore (nephew of Howard Shore) who has written some great music for several fun animated Star Wars shorts. Hope you enjoy! :)

 

 

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10 hours ago, luKe17879 said:

A concept/demo I wrote for a cartoon/animated short following the adventures of the Tico sisters, introduced in TLJ. Inspired by the wonderful art of Nicoletta Baldari and following the lead of Ryan Shore (nephew of Howard Shore) who has written some great music for several fun animated Star Wars shorts. Hope you enjoy! :)

 

 

 

I enjoyed the music and felt it could certainly work in a plotting or dialog scene early in a story.  So your name is Luke?  You were born to write Star Wars music.  One constructive feedback, keep an eye on production value.  Demos these days are of very, very high quality of realism.

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18 hours ago, karelm said:

 

I enjoyed the music and felt it could certainly work in a plotting or dialog scene early in a story.  So your name is Luke?  You were born to write Star Wars music.  One constructive feedback, keep an eye on production value.  Demos these days are of very, very high quality of realism.

 

It is Luke haha, and thank you for the ears and feedback on it! Always want to be improving.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Do any of my fellow composers know of a good source for learning about music production techniques specific to orchestration? I'm pretty confident in my ability to compose a piece of music (although criticism is always wanted), but when it comes to making it sound mixed and mastered I just fall so far from the mark and I really would like to get better.

 

I know of certain techniqies, like what Alex Moukala calls "surgical EQ" and I've used that to okay effect in my pieces but I just don't think I have the ears to listen for unwanted frequencies, or even the ability to identify what sorts of boosts/cuts would be beneficial to a track in general. I don't know much about compression, EQ, or using limiters despite watching hours of videos about them. I just can't seem to wrap my brain around this stuff.

 

Like, I totally get the idea of balancing your mix, but I don't necessarily understand how to achieve that or what that sounds like. I don't know if it's something I can get around on my very limited budget or if I just have to wait until I have thousand dollar headphone monitors or speakers and five-hundred dollar reverb/compressor/EQ plug-ins and such. Any help or directions to a source of help woudl be much appreciated.

 

Also, for the sake of an example this is my latest piece of music:

 

The Mischievous Elves

 

 

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5 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Fun piece! Definitely reminds me of JW, especially his Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra.

Thanks, that was definitely an inspiration, especially in how I wrote some of the string parts. Mostly John Williams with a little bit of Dukas and Grieg.

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I'm writing for a project right now and I need some help (not feedback).

 

I wrote a rough piano sketch for a scene I'm working on, and have a statement of a theme in the "conceptual" phase (converted to basic MIDI string sample for better hearing), and the issue is that I feel almost as though I've heard this theme before; like someone else composed it, I heard it a long time ago, and it surfaced in my mind and I accidentally ripped it off. Now I'm not positive that's the case, but after I've listened to it enough I feel like I accidentally stole it. I didn't quite get that feeling when I first wrote it down.

 

Anyway, if anyone here recognized even part of the statement from something else, please tell me so that I can rewrite it.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-hrzcIAZLLDb3g16CiSFf_PVOJUPald/view?usp=sharing

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17 hours ago, TheAvengerButton said:

Thanks, that was definitely an inspiration, especially in how I wrote some of the string parts. Mostly John Williams with a little bit of Dukas and Grieg.

 

Yeah, it reminded me of Dukas as well. Which elements would you say were inspired by Grieg?

 

11 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Anyway, if anyone here recognized even part of the statement from something else, please tell me so that I can rewrite it.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-hrzcIAZLLDb3g16CiSFf_PVOJUPald/view?usp=sharing

 

For what it's worth, it doesn't ring any bells with me.

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11 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

Anyway, if anyone here recognized even part of the statement from something else, please tell me so that I can rewrite it.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-hrzcIAZLLDb3g16CiSFf_PVOJUPald/view?usp=sharing

The first 4 seconds or so reminded me somewhat of Race to the River (2:27-2:34 here), but nothing serious:

 

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29 minutes ago, Holko said:

The first 4 seconds or so reminded me somewhat of Race to the River (2:27-2:34 here), but nothing serious:

 

 

That's kind of interesting, I never heard that score before. They're certainly not that similar, but there's kind of a baseline similarity.

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Hey, I'm new to this site and I saw this section which is really exciting to me, as I've been working on composing my own music as well! Here's an album I'm currently working on I titled "Journey Through The Stars" (cheesy name I know), but I'd love your guys' opinions on it. The first track is a bit generic but I personally think the tracks get gradually better. 

 

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLd2VIEZ4pds9KR7ZjlGFF5BvTmG4VdDdG

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2 hours ago, superultramegaa said:

Hey, I'm new to this site and I saw this section which is really exciting to me, as I've been working on composing my own music as well! Here's an album I'm currently working on I titled "Journey Through The Stars" (cheesy name I know), but I'd love your guys' opinions on it. The first track is a bit generic but I personally think the tracks get gradually better. 

 

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLd2VIEZ4pds9KR7ZjlGFF5BvTmG4VdDdG

Almost this title:

https://www.discogs.com/The-Hollywood-Bowl-Orchestra-John-Mauceri-Journey-To-The-Stars-A-Sci-Fi-Fantasy-Adventure/release/2499336

 

I liked the concept and the music.  It would sound great with live instruments and a professional orchestrator working on it.  I encourage you to keep working on it and work on your production skills.   The musical material is better than it sounds and not everyone these days listens with 1990's ears.  I hope I'm not coming across as condescending because I don't mean to.  In the hands of a good arranger and orchestrator, this would sound great.  But you are limited with 1990's sounds.  My advise to you, find the cue that is your favorite.  Hire an orchestrator (doesn't have to be professional, just someone you admire...maybe even someone here).  Then use that low cost demo orchestra.  I forgot the specifics but something like $100 dollar orchestra or something used for demos to read through it.  I forgot the specifics but were they the $100 dollars for 10 minutes orchestra or something but you can't use it commercially?  Also, have you studied music or are you going by ear?  If you can find a good music teacher (easier now since much of it is online), someone can help you fine tune your ideas.  Good teachers won't change what you do but help you realize your ideas better and I think you would benefit from that.  You have good ideas that aren't fully realized.

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13 hours ago, karelm said:

Almost this title:

https://www.discogs.com/The-Hollywood-Bowl-Orchestra-John-Mauceri-Journey-To-The-Stars-A-Sci-Fi-Fantasy-Adventure/release/2499336

 

I liked the concept and the music.  It would sound great with live instruments and a professional orchestrator working on it.  I encourage you to keep working on it and work on your production skills.   The musical material is better than it sounds and not everyone these days listens with 1990's ears.  I hope I'm not coming across as condescending because I don't mean to.  In the hands of a good arranger and orchestrator, this would sound great.  But you are limited with 1990's sounds.  My advise to you, find the cue that is your favorite.  Hire an orchestrator (doesn't have to be professional, just someone you admire...maybe even someone here).  Then use that low cost demo orchestra.  I forgot the specifics but something like $100 dollar orchestra or something used for demos to read through it.  I forgot the specifics but were they the $100 dollars for 10 minutes orchestra or something but you can't use it commercially?  Also, have you studied music or are you going by ear?  If you can find a good music teacher (easier now since much of it is online), someone can help you fine tune your ideas.  Good teachers won't change what you do but help you realize your ideas better and I think you would benefit from that.  You have good ideas that aren't fully realized.

Huh, I didn't know about that album with the similar title! You don't sound condescending at all, I wanted some criticism so I actually know what I'm doing wrong. You think all of it sounds like 1990s sounds? I understand with the first 3 as I was using all Logic Pro X instruments and no other libraries, but I thought the quality had gotten better in the last 2 tracks, especially the 5th one as that one was mostly Kontakt and the free version of Spitfire's BBC Orchestra set. What about the orchestration is lacking to you in the last 2 tracks? I am self taught (but I am being taught how to play classical and jazz piano music), so my goal is to implement more advanced techniques with every track in that album. Do you think the brass needs more articulations? I am only using staccato / staccatissimo, and sometimes sfz brass for the intense parts. Do you think the orchestration would improve if I bought the East West Hollywood Orchestra pack? I know that has practically every articulation needed and every track I've heard online sounds pretty great with it. I'd just like some more specifics on what about the orchestration needs work. 

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10 hours ago, superultramegaa said:

Huh, I didn't know about that album with the similar title! You don't sound condescending at all, I wanted some criticism so I actually know what I'm doing wrong. You think all of it sounds like 1990s sounds? I understand with the first 3 as I was using all Logic Pro X instruments and no other libraries, but I thought the quality had gotten better in the last 2 tracks, especially the 5th one as that one was mostly Kontakt and the free version of Spitfire's BBC Orchestra set. What about the orchestration is lacking to you in the last 2 tracks? I am self taught (but I am being taught how to play classical and jazz piano music), so my goal is to implement more advanced techniques with every track in that album. Do you think the brass needs more articulations? I am only using staccato / staccatissimo, and sometimes sfz brass for the intense parts. Do you think the orchestration would improve if I bought the East West Hollywood Orchestra pack? I know that has practically every articulation needed and every track I've heard online sounds pretty great with it. I'd just like some more specifics on what about the orchestration needs work. 

 

These instruments have to be worked with quantization, modwheels, shaping the phrases etc.  It's a deep topic and even if you are using good samples, they hardly ever sound good out of the box without quite some work.  I have the BBC Orchestra but don't know how it differs from the free version, is it a single dynamic layer?  I do think you should use more variety in the instrumentation samples.  When I spoke of orchestration, I was referring to music material, not the mockup quality.  The way an orchestrator would work through this is different from what you are doing.  They'll listen to what you intend and flush it out to be more likely to give you what you mean rather than what you did.  It's also about knowing the balance between instruments but also sections and how you need to reinforce the primary idea and back off on the secondary or tertiary ideas.  I like to use this as an example of primary and secondary reinforcements where you have a huge tutti orchestra blasting away:

Everyone in the very large orchestra (over 100 players here) is playing the same note in octaves...all are on G playing at fff.  At 4:24, at the same fff the low brass plays the big Mars theme.  What I hear in this recording is 3 trombones.  Notice the balance between those three instruments in their tesitura (their big register) blows maybe 100 other players away that are all playing that same dynamic.  The reality is there are alot of other instruments playing that theme with the trombones but they are clobbered by the trombones.  This is an example of balance and reinforcing the primary then secondary idea effectively.  Generally, as music gets louder, the material simplifies down to one or two (maybe three ideas) and every one reinforces one of those.  Sure there are composers who don't do this but in general this applies. 

 

This is a subject that takes years of study and work so isn't a quick subject suited for an email or two.   For example, in sample libraries dynamics are defined as decibels and the instruments are equalized like a keyboard so if playing the same velocity, they'll be equally loud.  That is not the case in an orchestra.  Strings don't get that loud for example.  A piccolo in low register is hard to hear and in its high register can be heard over anything but will pierce.  Balancing these out to support each other is one of the important aspects of orchestration.  Also what part of the chord do you double?  Lots of composers might double triads but an orchestrator would rethink this.  The root is the primary note and most frequent.  The fifth is the second most frequent, and the 3rd is the least frequently doubled because it can muddy the clarity of the sonics plus a little bit makes the tonality clear.  This is just a rule of thumb but its an example of how working with an orchestrator or teacher can help you get a more professional sound.   I hope that explained it better.

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24 minutes ago, karelm said:

 

These instruments have to be worked with quantization, modwheels, shaping the phrases etc.  It's a deep topic and even if you are using good samples, they hardly ever sound good out of the box without quite some work.  I have the BBC Orchestra but don't know how it differs from the free version, is it a single dynamic layer?  I do think you should use more variety in the instrumentation samples.  When I spoke of orchestration, I was referring to music material, not the mockup quality.  The way an orchestrator would work through this is different from what you are doing.  They'll listen to what you intend and flush it out to be more likely to give you what you mean rather than what you said.  It's also about knowing the balance between instruments but also sections and how you need to reinforce the primary idea and back off on the secondary or tertiary ideas.  I like to use this as an example of primary and secondary reinforcements where you have a huge tutti orchestra blasting away:

Everyone in the very large orchestra (over 100 players here) is playing the same note in octaves...all are on G playing at fff.  At 4:24, at the same fff the low brass plays the big Mars theme.  What I hear in this recording is 3 trombones.  Notice the balance between those three instruments in their tesitura (their big register) blows maybe 100 other players away that are all playing that same dynamic.  The reality is there are alot of other instruments playing that theme with the trombones but they are clobbered by the trombones.  This is an example of balance and reinforcing the primary then secondary idea effectively.  Generally, as music gets louder, the material simplifies down to one or two (maybe three ideas) and every one reinforces one of those.  Sure there are composers who don't do this but in general this applies. 

 

This is a subject that takes years of study and work so isn't a quick subject suited for an email or two.   For example, in sample libraries dynamics are defined as decibels and the instruments are equalized like a keyboard so if playing the same velocity, they'll be equally loud.  That is not the case in an orchestra.  Strings don't get that loud for example.  A piccolo in low register is hard to hear and in its high register can be heard over anything but will pierce.  Balancing these out to support each other is one of the important aspects of orchestration.  Also what part of the chord do you double?  Lots of composers might double triads but an orchestrator would rethink this.  The root is the primary note and most frequent.  The fifth is the second most frequent, and the 3rd is the least frequently doubled because it can muddy the clarity of the sonics plus a little bit makes the tonality clear.  This is just a rule of thumb but its an example of how working with an orchestrator or teacher can help you get a more professional sound.   I hope that explained it better.

Well, this definitely gives me the motivation to go back to college once the pandemic is stabilized (I personally don't work well in online classes). I did try by my fifth piece of music to make the orchestra sound more realistic and make the woodwinds more quiet except when they were the centerpiece, the brass more loud than strings, as well as try a little more EQ, make sure the reverb sounds the same, etc. As for doubling chords, I believe I usually double the root or the fifth, unless I want to have a more unusual sound or am having the brass / strings travel throughout a chord to give it more to do. Modwheels I don't know a lot about, but I do try to make the dynamics as realistic as possible (I don't use a keyboard, I type every note in manually and adjust the dynamics as needed) and mess with the volume control and pan as much as needed. Also yes there's only one dynamic layer that you drag up and down on the main display in the free version of BBCO, or you adjust on the piano roll (which is what I use most frequently). You've definitely inspired me to look into as many tutorials as possible to learn more about orchestration and theory, as I really do want my music to sound as realistic as possible. 

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My clarinet composition from @Jurassic Shark's composer challenge, posted here for further visibility:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pXb5OgrtoqbxU2ldUG4cVyo0yuFLFgYr/view?usp=sharing


A version of something I was working on around the same time, tried to reduce my reliance on octave "chords":

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MkOkEv6HsQPYVaUmg_frso4PiOSW_KSP/view?usp=sharing

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10 hours ago, Spider-Fal said:

My clarinet composition from @Jurassic Shark's composer challenge, posted here for further visibility:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pXb5OgrtoqbxU2ldUG4cVyo0yuFLFgYr/view?usp=sharing

 

What a nice way to start my morning! I really like the piece, especially the first few bars, which remind me of the slow part of Holst's Jupiter. It would be nice if the A part was repeated at the end (or close to the end) of the piece. I think that would create a greater feeling of unity, and you get to repeat that georgeous intro! Just my two cents. :)

 

 

10 hours ago, Spider-Fal said:

A version of something I was working on around the same time, tried to reduce my reliance on octave "chords":

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MkOkEv6HsQPYVaUmg_frso4PiOSW_KSP/view?usp=sharing

 

This was certainly different, although interesting. I reminds me of some TV-show that I can't put my finger on, maybe The X-files?

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On 1/11/2021 at 4:59 PM, Spider-Fal said:

A version of something I was working on around the same time, tried to reduce my reliance on octave "chords":

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MkOkEv6HsQPYVaUmg_frso4PiOSW_KSP/view?usp=sharing

Alt version with slightly different ending:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kQhQQoIzDYMcRKs6IRdQOVEMHwouwNwV/view?usp=sharing

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  • 1 month later...

Hey all,

 

I recently updated my demo reel for music I've done for visual media. Here it is if you wanna take a look (albeit it's all in Spanish for now, I'm planning on adding subtitles later on)

 

 

Thanks for your time!

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