Lost

[LongTallJodie 59]

Totally. Jacob's Enemy (as Lostpedia has taken to calling him) is even a greater manipulator than Ben! He humiliated and weakened Ben to the point that poor Mr. Linus would do just about anything he said.

And yeah, Jacob calmly reading his book while Locke crashed to the ground behind him was one of the most hilarious things in the history of the show. I cracked up. Interesting, though, that Locke seemed pretty much dead until Jacob's touch brought him back. One wonders if Jacob was running around in the chaos of the 815 crash, giving Locke's toes a quick tweak before he woke up there.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

EDIT: Someone on MiceChat suggested it would be cool if Smokey/Non-Jacob/Locke/Man #2 were named Esau.

Yeah, my brother kind of jokingly suggested that after we watched the finale, but I think it's a strong theory. A lot of it fits, including the Egyptian connections, and the notion that Man #2/Esau is Jacob's "Bad Twin"...gasp!

All in all, the finale was one of the most exhilarating and head-spinning episodes ever...I loved it! And as frustrating as it is, I'm glad there are still SO many unanswered questions going into the final season (one of the most interesting being the identity and goals of Illana's group).

I'm prepared to be devastated if it turns out that Juliet's dead...it'd be as bad as Charlie's death in my book. Sayid dying would be awful too, but his character hasn't been as likeable recently.

And the black title on white at the very end was a stroke of genius, implying that everything has changed as we leave this penultimate season. I refuse to think about the 8 months left until the show's return.

[Datameister 2,042]

What's really interesting about Ilana's group is that they have a code question that's reminiscent of DHARMA (the snowman question), but the answer is in Latin, which the Others apparently use. And they ostensibly support Jacob, too.

It's actually really crazy to think about how the last few seasons have apparently been shaped. Jacob's enemy told Locke to move the Island because he wanted Locke to die and be brought back and allow him to take his form. Ben decided to do it instead because he wanted to kill Penelope, so he needed to get off the Island. Things went crazy on the Island, so Jacob's enemy again convinced Locke to move the Island, and told him he'd have to sacrifice himself. That came to pass, in a manner of speaking, and Locke was brought back exactly as Jacob's enemy wanted. Then the guy used a combo of pseudo-Locke and pseudo-Alex to convince Ben to do exactly as pseudo-Locke said. Then he used pseudo-Locke to push Ben even further over the edge, creating a loophole and allowing Jacob to be killed at last.

One wonders if Jacob's enemy was the one who brought the freighter to the Island in the first place, knowing it would give him an excuse to convince Locke to move the Island. That being the case, maybe the Widmore/Ben rivalry was planned by him, too...wow. Who knows how far back this goes.

[Ollie 1,059]

All I know is that they have a ton of questions to answer and one season left to do so.

[Datameister 2,042]

Definitely. I have a feeling we're gonna have pretty good reason to be satisfied, though.

[Red 75]

What's really interesting about Ilana's group is that they have a code question that's reminiscent of DHARMA (the snowman question), but the answer is in Latin, which the Others apparently use. And they ostensibly support Jacob, too.

The answer to their riddle has to be a reference to Jacob himself, since we found out that he lives literally under the thing. Which again makes me wonder who we kept seeing in the cabin. Chances are it's Jacob's enemy, but it if he is actually the smoke monster then how did Smokey operate with him presumably trapped in it (the line of ash being broken was the way he got out)?

[Jay 37,347]

Yes, I want to know WHEN the circle of ash was broken, and what was going on the cabin before then and since then

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Have the characters ever referenced specifically what the ash is for? It could be keeping something out as much as keeping something in.

[Datameister 2,042]

A think one of the S3 podcasts addressed it slightly. Don't remember what they said exactly...I read about it on Lostpedia, I think. It's never really been dealt with in any direct way in the show itself, though.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

The ash is the now nice and toasty cremated Jacob.

[Red 75]

A think one of the S3 podcasts addressed it slightly. Don't remember what they said exactly...I read about it on Lostpedia, I think. It's never really been dealt with in any direct way in the show itself, though.

According to lostpedia Darlton said "a bit of a kind of protection or magic or kind of containment. Ben is afraid to touch it. In a certain way, part of the idea here is that Ben has some powers over Jacob, and Jacob has some powers over Ben, and there is a bit of a stasis."

Of course that idea has become very suspect now that we know that Ben never actually met Jacob before "The Incident".

[Olivier 5]

W O W

What a finale!

What a series!

I felt bad for Ben in this episode. We got some huge insight into he really is (Jacob rejecting him, making crap up, etc.) and it's a bit pathetic. Even when he killed Jacob, which was fairly despicable, I couldn't help but just feel sorry for him.

Absolutely; it was a great great episode Ben-wise; we had seen him disillusioned, but now he was totally lost, disheartened; it was terribly tragic and pathetic, and Emerson once again shone-- and so did O'Quinn.

The scene with Rose & Bernard (and Vincent) was very nice; a bit melodramatic, but not too sugary, thanks to their gentleness; quite touching, even.

Did Jacob cause the Black Rock to crash there?

That is what I understood .It seems Jacob causes a group of people to get marooned on the island ,stuff happens and he starts over. Maybe the people on the Black Rock were the 17th century equivalent of the Oceanic flight 815 group

Not quite; Jacob did not make them crash: he led them to the Island, probably the same way he picked the Oceanic 815ers (at least some of them).

It seems that the other guy (rather than "Jacob's enemy" as Lostpedia does, I'll rather call him The Adversary, with a nod to Fables) and Jacob have been enganged-- locked-- in a debate for a long time: Jacob leads people onto a ship, lures it toward the Island; then, to quote The Adversary, "they land, kill, destroy and corrupt", and it's always the same-- to which Jacob replied "it only ends once, anything/everything before is progress"; The Adversary, doubtful, then said something I can't make out entirely (I played it again, but he does not pronounce everything intelligibly) about killing Jacob or Jacob getting killed (I think it's whether Jacob knows that/when he will kill him), and that he will eventually find a loophole (which Jacob observes he had found indeed when they meet again)-- to what?

The Adversary seems to have been bound to the Island; thus far, he has also always won the debate: he remarks that Jacob is still trying to prove him wrong by leading people to the Island.

I watched Constantine for the first time last evening; at one point he explains that God and the Devil made a wager: see who could win the most souls, never acting directly but suggesting, talking, using angels and demons.

Jacob and The Adversary's debate seems very much to be that sort of thing-- which I would have suggested without having seen Constantine anyway, but the coincidence is funny.

It's also sad to think Locke was never anyone special and he was just a pawn in a greater game of chess. Jacob on one end, the other man against him. They even have their own rules.

Oh yes, poor good old Locke was special: The Adversary used him to get to Jacob-- who he obviously cannot kill by himself.

He was used all along; his father played him to get one of his kidneys, Abaddon (working for whom, really?) planted the idea of going on a walkabout, and The Adversary used him (under Christian's guise?).

I hope and suppose they will keep using Terry O'Quinn for The Adversary in 2007 and the other actor for the flashbacks.

it's unique as a finale because it didn't really bring up a load of new questions nor answer some.

Like heck it didn't.

As usual, while answering questions and revealing important information, they have added yet more enigmas.

We learned about Jacob (not everything, but still a good deal), saw him not only meet with some of the main characters, but most of the time at very important moments in their lives (even leading to Nadya's death-- and maybe Sayid's survival: would he not have been run over too?); guesses were confirmed (Eloise is already pregnant, Chang lost his arm during the incident-- not quite, but it will need amputating), ...

A few questions:

- what is the relationship between Ilana and Jacob?

- what is the loophole?

- who is The Adversary, exactly?

- what are the rules and the stakes?

- why did not Jacob resist? he let Ben stab him, did not move an inch-- is he pulling an Obi-Wan Kenobi on The Adversary?

- can Daniel have been right? will the bomb change everything back to "normal"?

- how did Ilana know about Locke? why did she not stop "Locke"? had she not identified him as The Adversary yet?

- did Jacob know everything in advance?

- how does he chose people?

- what about the cabin? Jacob seems to have always lived beneahh the statue; did he use the cabin only to communicate with people? why ask Horace to build it and not build it himself, and why do it only know after living centuries on the Island? who used the cabin? what is the meaning of the broken circle of ash? who broke through it, how and why exactly? was it meant to wall in or out? is it Jacob or The Adversary that walked through it? Jacob seems never to have had any trouble going wherever he pleased outside the Island, so it may have been The Adversary that was kept walled in or out.

...

It is both sad and funny to see Ben sulking. And by the end of the episode that had turned into pity, pity for him and how bad he wanted to be special, how he was always led to believe so and how in the end he thought that he was brushed aside so lightly and it drove him to kill Jacob. Terribly clever of Locke #2 to manipulate the manipulator which has a great sense of irony.

The way The Adversary talked Ben into killing Jacob ("The true question is, why wouldn't you want to kill him?") was very Devilish-- tempting people, talking them into the worst sins.

Yet The Adversary does not seem to have been the only one talking ben into killing Jacob; as I said above, Jacob did not try to avoid him nor to stop his arm; his very dry "What about you?" seems to have been deliberate taunting, adding the last straw on the camel's back so that Ben would indeed kill him; it may have been blunt frankness, but Jacob's resigned air and passivity make me wonder how much he wanted or was able to prevent his murder.

Certainly sent me rethinking the whole show and the bigger game played behind the scenes

There certainly is a lot to think over and go back over in the light of those revelations.

The Christian who appeared to Locke, the Alex who appeared to Ben, and the Smoke Monster himself seem all to have been either The Adversary himself or his minion(s).

It's actually really crazy to think about how the last few seasons have apparently been shaped. Jacob's enemy told Locke to move the Island because he wanted Locke to die and be brought back and allow him to take his form. [...] Who knows how far back this goes.

Talk about a long con!

The guy had centuries to think it over, using the people Jacob had selected, whom he only got acquainted with once they were on the Island.

Hey-- Smokey's attempted abduction of Locke: was it an early attempt to use him? Why didn't he try again? or sooner, the first time they met? (maybe after that first encounter, the information was processed by The Adversary and he came up with his decision to use Locke).

This is mind-boggling, and I love it.

I also loved the negative version of the end title card; nice touch.

This is shaping up to be yet something more than what we thought: early on, the series seemed to be a "survival movie" with fantastic elements; it veered into science fiction, focusing on time travel; now, with Jacob and The Adversary's ongoing debate partly revealed, it is moving toward something more philosophical/theological, beyond Back to the Future-ish considerations (how to preserve, shape, improve, leave the Past or the Future?)

I can't wait for next season! But I also dread it because it will be the last one! But I long the see next year's finale episode and understand everything! But I don't want it to ever end!

[Datameister 2,042]

Hey-- Smokey's attempted abduction of Locke: was it an early attempt to use him? Why didn't he try again? or sooner, the first time they met? (maybe after that first encounter, the information was processed by The Adversary and he came up with his decision to use Locke).

I thought about that, too. What's peculiar is that, up until the season 1 finale, Locke was not afraid of the Monster at all. The first time he saw it, he looked into "the eye of the Island," and it was a beautiful white light, or something like that. I assume it read his memories that time. Then, in "Exodus," he heard the Monster coming - he waited fearlessly for it, but when it started blowing up trees around him, he got a little afraid. That was when it grabbed him and tried to pull him down another Cerberus vent. I'm sure it was an early attempt to convert him, as it converted the French science team.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

After this finale this show is solidified as my favorite TV series ever. Bye bye BSG...and DS9!

And the BSG side of me is giddy with joy that John Locke really is a nobody after all. That he isn't some magical special boy. Just some poor loser that got killed by a selfish poor loser. There is something Ron Moore about it. You can tell Damon and Carlton really are as big Ron Moore/BSG fans as they've said they are.

[Olivier 5]

And the BSG side of me is giddy with joy that John Locke really is a nobody after all. That he isn't some magical special boy. Just some poor loser that got killed by a selfish poor loser. There is something Ron Moore about it. You can tell Damon and Carlton really are as big Ron Moore/BSG fans as they've said they are.

Gee-- how terribly, horribly tragic John & Ben's lives turn out to have been.

Ben was beaten by his father, shot at by Sayid, changed by the Temple's magic that saved him; he spent years serving the Island, obeying Jacob's order; he was never granted the right to see or hear Jacob; he lost Alex (all he had) for the Island; and in a single, simple blow, Jacob twists the knife further into his wounded heart that he is nobody.

Locke was left by his father, tricked by his father into giving him a kidney, paralyzed and killed by his father, and apparently ressucitated by Jacob only to suffer more; he served his faith in the Island and the Island as best he could, was paralyzed or handicapped twice again, was killed by Ben on the Island, was given the promise of a meaningful, important destiny, was tricked into leaving the Island and bringing everybody back through his death, was killed by Ben again-- and then his personality was robbed after his death to trick even more people.

After this finale this show is solidified as my favorite TV series ever. Bye bye BSG...and DS9!

Lost definitely ranks among my top favorite TV series, along with Twin Peaks; it is just as unique.

[Red 75]

I doubt either Ben or Locke's stories are over, so we don't know ultimately how special or un-special they are. But as for now we know they have both been played for fools (mostly with Ben, it's unclear how far Locke has been manipulated).

[Datameister 2,042]

Some thoughts as I watch the first part again:

* Nice solo (viola?) writing in the first scene. Jacob's theme, at long last!

* They did a good job casting little Katie. Very believable as a young Evangeline Lily. (And so much for the Kate = Annie theory! )

* The mini-theme from "Greatest Hits" meets the MOH submarine theme! Very cool.

* "You know what I mean...!" Chilling.

* Sorry, but the guy who plays Bram is not doing a very good job, IMO.

* Opening the box early on but not showing its contents was the first serious mistake in this episode. I really wish they hadn't done that, because later on, they would have just talked about Locke's corpse openly, not in such a way that a nonexistent audience wouldn't know what they were talking about. Feels contrived to me. Would have been more suspenseful and realistic if the box had remained shut till the end.

* So Locke finally returned to the beach for the first time since partway through season 3...except it wasn't really Locke! X(

* "So yes, I lied. That's what I do." That's the one statement Ben will ever make that I 100% believe!

* Sun and Jin finally have a scene together for the first time in a whole season!

* "I don't know, but his Korean is excellent." This coming from an actor whose Korean is purportedly terrible?

I'll probably post my comments on the second part when I watch it later.

[Red 75]

* They did a good job casting little Katie. Very believable as a young Evangeline Lily. (And so much for the Kate = Annie theory! )

I noticed the thing she was trying to steal was a New Kids on the Block lunchbox, clearly this is the late 80's.

I liked all of the flashbacks in the episode; suspiciously Jacob wasn't in Juliet's.

[Ollie 1,059]

Because she wasn't one of the six, thus paving the way for her death.

[Red 75]

In every one of the characters' flashbacks (except Juliet's of course) Jacob touches them in some way, that has to be significant. Personally I think it has to do with Jacob's last line "they're coming", he isn't talking about Ilana's group or the Others, he's talking about the castaways returning from 1977.

[LongTallJodie 59]

* They did a good job casting little Katie. Very believable as a young Evangeline Lily. (And so much for the Kate = Annie theory! )

I noticed the thing she was trying to steal was a New Kids on the Block lunchbox, clearly this is the late 80's.

That was a nice touch. How many people actually remember that the very same lunchbox was part of Kate and Tom's time capsule?

Anyway, I've been thinking about Widmore. He was the leader of the Others before Ben and - I can only assume - was ACTUALLY picked by Jacob (as opposed to Ben, which seemed to be a boneheaded mistake by Richard or a psych-out by Jacob's Enemy). It stands to reason, then, that Widmore actually IS one of the good guys - he's been trying to take back the Island and set it back on its previous, pre-Ben path. He's definitely an acolyte of Jacob. Yet, Jacob's off-Island team (Bram, Ilana) say that Widmore's the BAD guy. Is Jacob confused? Is his team confused? Or has Widmore gone so far off the reservation that Jacob's disowned him? I really believe at this point that Widmore has the Island's best intentions in mind, which is why he held the boat race that led to Desmond pushing the button, and why he sent a team in to extract Ben. So I guess the BIG question is - why Widmore on the outs with Jacob now, or is Jacob in the dark on this one?

[Jay 37,347]

Very interesting points, Trout.

I too think that Widmore will end up being one of the good guys, but you're right - there's a lot of confusing stuff surrounding the matter

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa! Jacob's never said anything bad about Widmore!

The man in the cabin was Fakob!

[LongTallJodie 59]

Whoa whoa whoa whoa! Jacob's never said anything bad about Widmore!

The man in the cabin was Fakob!

Indeed, the man in the cabin has always been (on the show, since 2004) Jacob's Enemy. I'm referring to Jacob's off-island team headed up by Ilana. When they tried to kidnap Miles and his awesome fish tacos, they stated that Widmore was bad news. And since Jacob's TEAM seems to think that Widmore's the bad guy, then it stands to reason that Jacob himself ALSO isn't that keen on him either.

Unless Jacob's team is grossly misinformed.

[Incanus 5,714]

Interestingly Jacob had used the cabin in the past, but obviously he had had 2 residences for some reason or another. Ilana and her team went for the cabin first and noticed Jacob had not been there for a long time and only after that decided to head for the statue.

Also the question this other team keeps asking, "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" is almost like a code or a password. Richard seems to be in the know as he chose to answer it in Latin and did not get gunwhipped by Ilana as Frank did.

It is an interesting set of cultural references that coincide with Jacob and the Others: The use of Latin, although that is the language of learning after all , Jacob's tapestry embroidered with Ancient Greek quotes from Homer's Iliad and the surrounding obviously Egyptian architecture. These are questions I would like to hear answers in the next season. Of course these references give indication of some very ancient conflict going back millenia and perhaps some idea of the origin of these guys.

To me it almost seems like the Adversary and Jacob are law and chaos locked in a struggle on the Island. From Jacob's perspective progress comes from this conflict which he seems to perpetuate by bringing suitable people on the Island. It must have a good purpose for him to want to do that. We do not know it yet. His Adversary on the other hand would like to have order and stability without human interference for some purpose of his own unless order is not his end in itself.

And for some reason I found Adversary's comment on the beach quite funny when Jacob offered him fish. "Thank you. I just ate." If this guy is Smokey like some people think I wonder what he just ate. Some of those pesky humans?

[Datameister 2,042]

My thoughts on part 2 as I re-watch:

* I thought Jack going with Sawyer was a little silly. How 'bout saying something along the lines of, "Sayid got shot and he's going to die if we don't leave NOW. You can say what you've got to say in the van."

* I love seeing all these key moments in the characters' pasts, but I found Jack's to be a little dissatisfying. It seemed retcon-y. Jack never mentioned his father telling him to count to five...seems like a pretty important part of the story. I understand that it wouldn't make for a very good scene, but it bothered me nonetheless. I kinda wish they'd picked some other event for his run-in with Jacob.

* Groin kick? Really?

* The actress who plays young Rachel looks freakishly like the adult version. Well done, casting!

* I thought there was a big missed opportunity in the script. "Are you with me on this?" should have been followed by, "I have always been with you."

* Boy, that gunfight is tense. I was really worried someone important was gonna get hit.

* Wow. Crazy scene leading up to Juliet's big fall. It takes something that momentous to make me hope the Novikov self-consistency principle doesn't apply to Lost.

* All throughout both parts, it's a trip seeing Jacob as this relatively young, handsome, eloquent man. For two seasons, I've had this picture of him in my head as this ancient dude who will never die. Well, ancient he still may be, but he doesn't look it, and he most certainly can die. Locke kicking him into the fire...eesh.

[Incanus 5,714]

My thoughts on part 2 as I re-watch:

* All throughout both parts, it's a trip seeing Jacob as this relatively young, handsome, eloquent man. For two seasons, I've had this picture of him in my head as this ancient dude who will never die. Well, ancient he still may be, but he doesn't look it, and he most certainly can die. Locke kicking him into the fire...eesh.

I found the end very powerful. There was very dark determination and sort of glee in the way Locke#2 kicked Jacob into the fire. All his plans had paid off his adversary finally dead and that was the last insult and a way to harm him.

Locke#2 played his role very well throughout the journey, acting surprised, puzzled and making dumb questions as if he did not know the answers. Until there appear these small moments of malice and coldness in him, especially as he is prepping Ben to kill Jacob. If Smokey and Lock#2 are one and the same there is a delicious glee in his performance as he is mock surprised and pleased when Ben tells him he will do whatever Locke asks him to do.

The more I think of Ben killing Jacob the more I pity the man but at the same time his remorseless action fueled by this hate Locke#2 has been cultivating is very chilling and in character with Ben. He is a psychopath. He does not hesitate, there is no choice for him, he is barely aware that Locke#2 is not Locke. He does not seem to acknowledge some larger taking place in the meeting. So there is self absorbed self pity in Ben which makes him less endearing. But when you set that up against what he has suffered for the Island and what reward he has received for it his reaction is somewhat justified.

One question I would like to know the answer to is who healed Ben in the first place. Was it Jacob? Was it the Smokey? Or someone else? This would give an interesting perspective on the whole plot.

[Datameister 2,042]

I found the end very powerful. There was very dark determination and sort of glee in the way Locke#2 kicked Jacob into the fire. All his plans had paid off his adversary finally dead and that was the last insult and a way to harm him.

Definitely. I think there was just a little fear, too, though...the Locke-alike (total Giacchino track title!) seemed genuinely taken concerned when Jacob said "they" were coming. I thus saw the whole-kicking-him-into-the-fire thing much as you did, but also with a hint of frustration or fear or a desire to control a situation that may soon become more difficult to control. It struck me as the first time the Locke-alike has been truly surprised by something in the time we've seen him...which would make sense, because Jacob should be the only one who would be able to surprise him.

And the more I think about it, the more I buy the theory about "they" being the Losties. Jacob did have a direct influence in at least some of them making it back to the Island, after all, just as his adversary had a direct influence in Locke dying so he could take the form of the only normal human who could meet Jacob. But it could just refer to Ilana's group, too.

[Olivier 5]

* "I don't know, but his Korean is excellent." This coming from an actor whose Korean is purportedly terrible?

Eh? Who said so? He was bon in Korea; even though he was raised in the USA, his family was Korean as far as I know, so they must have spoken Korean at home and he must have learnt it as a child, therefore.

In every one of the characters' flashbacks (except Juliet's of course) Jacob touches them in some way, that has to be significant. Personally I think it has to do with Jacob's last line "they're coming", he isn't talking about Ilana's group or the Others, he's talking about the castaways returning from 1977.

Quite possible; besides signifying the explosion of the bomb (a nuclear bomb wipes out the entire location & characters: how's that of the a cliffhanger?), the white flash at the end may very well correspond to a time flash that chronoports the O6-1 back to 2007 (their original Present).

Maybe they are the Good people Jacob has tried for centuries to get to the Island to prove his point about Good-- and his own loophole to The adversary's loophole.

Regarding his passivity when Ben stabs him, it also made me think of the DC/Vertigo characterization of Cain & Abel, which I believe may have started with Neil Gaiman's Sandman, where Cain keeps murdering Abel over and over throughout time, in various ways (gentle, naive to the point of slightly dim-witted Abel always falls in the traps and is totally hapless).

Anyway, I've been thinking about Widmore. He was the leader of the Others before Ben and - I can only assume - was ACTUALLY picked by Jacob (as opposed to Ben, which seemed to be a boneheaded mistake by Richard or a psych-out by Jacob's Enemy).

Seasons 4 & 5 definitely need rewatching, to analyze and interpret everything pertaining to Jacob, Christian (and Claire),Locke and Ben all over again, in the light of what we learned in the finale.

Who said Locke was to be the new leader?

Who actually asked Horace (assuming Locke's vision was true) to build the cabin?

What would Jacob need with a spacesh-- with a cabin?

Was it The Adversary?

How could Jacob ignore all The Adversary was doing all along on the Island, manipulating people? Jacob seems to know enough about the outside world and outsiders to pick people-- or did The Adversary simply take advantage of Jacob's travels?

In the end, they may all be Good Guys-- Ben, Widmore, Ilana's team; some of them, however, have been manipulated and set up one against another by The Adversary.

Darn, Locke is dead.

I can't get over it; it may be even worse because we've been tricked for a good many episodes into believing in a miraculous resurrection. Darn, that evil guy is good.

How bad is he, actually?

His point at the beginning was that Jacob's experiment was pointless because it all ended the same way: fighting, destruction, corruption. He was fed up with it, but not devilish: they seemed to be observers, not actors, actively warring parties. In fact, he clearly is bound somehow to Jacob & The Island, and looking for a way out-- in other words, he seems to be a victim as well, trapped in and endless game of observation and experimenting he deems useless and tedious.

This is nicely complex.

The man in the cabin was Fakob!

"Fakob": I like this

Why did he not just go to the Statue with Ben? Why ask Richard to lead him?

The more I think of Ben killing Jacob the more I pity the man but at the same time his remorseless action fueled by this hate Locke#2 has been cultivating is very chilling and in character with Ben. He is a psychopath. He does not hesitate, there is no choice for him, he is barely aware that Locke#2 is not Locke. He does not seem to acknowledge some larger taking place in the meeting. So there is self absorbed self pity in Ben which makes him less endearing. But when you set that up against what he has suffered for the Island and what reward he has received for it his reaction is somewhat justified.

One question I would like to know the answer to is who healed Ben in the first place. Was it Jacob? Was it the Smokey? Or someone else? This would give an interesting perspective on the whole plot.

I don't remember how he put it regarding his killing of Keamy: he is a man of thought, cunning, meticulous planning and brilliant improvisation, but in both cases his emotions overwhelmed his judgment.

One question I would like to know the answer to is who healed Ben in the first place. Was it Jacob? Was it the Smokey? Or someone else? This would give an interesting perspective on the whole plot.

Oooooh-- very good questioning, and a potentially highly interesting answer. Could it have been a first step in The Adversary's plan or just luck?

Season 6 clearly is going to be even more awesome than Season 5.

[ashinyobject 0]

I believe that the "Thirty Years Later" events are the future created by Jughead's explosion.

So the Losties in '77 DID change the future, and we've been watching that future.

This may explain the way the barracks looked when Sun and Lapidus were there.

So maybe 815 never crashed and everything we saw before Ajira 316 flashed never happened.

Hopefully, the explosion sends them all to the changed present on the island.

[Ollie 1,059]

Well the barracks look the way they do because no one has lived in them for 3 years, plus there was a gun fight there shortly before Jack and co left the island.

One thing I was wondering about was the condition of the statue. Naturally it would erode over the years but in it still looked good at the begining of the episode and part of me wonders if perhaps the blast from the bomb might have brought the whole thing down as only one leg is available.

But then there would have been signs on the rest of the island that a Hydrogen bomb was detonated.

[Jay 37,347]

ashinyobject, I don't think that's right at all

Mark, the statue thing is interesting... the statue was ENORMOUS! If it was destroyed in some way, you'd think that there's big huge chunks of stone all over that part of the island....

[Ollie 1,059]

Correct. The true question is, how old is the statue?

At the begining of the episode it looked to be in great shape, but given the time period you would think if it is true Egyptian, it's been around much longer than that.

But yet at the end all we see is a damaged leg and no true debris lying on the beach, unless the jumping thru time had some effect.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I wasn't expecting Jacob to be chilling right next to the statue at the beginning. The close-up was awesome, and it didn't really look like Anubis. I need to watch the episode again, but it looked like it had a croc head. And you guys realize the statue is right on the water right?

[Ollie 1,059]

Yes we know it's right on the water.

I think it was already mentioned earlier that once we got a good look at the head it wasn't Anubis. But I don't think it was wear & tear of natural time that took down the statue.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Yes we know it's right on the water.

Ok, so if it was destroyed, it is highly probably a lot of it could have fallen into the water.

Oh, oh, oh!!!

Remember when Eko told Locke, "You're next." If the monster really is this Man #2, that would make perfect sense.

[Incanus 5,714]

I wasn't expecting Jacob to be chilling right next to the statue at the beginning. The close-up was awesome, and it didn't really look like Anubis. I need to watch the episode again, but it looked like it had a croc head. And you guys realize the statue is right on the water right?

Yes I mentioned a little earlier that the statue looks more like Set or Seth, the god of desert and chaos from Egyptian pantheon who is the adversary of the "good" gods like Ra and Horus. Set was reprsented having a hippopotamus or a crocodile head but also a strange unidentifiable animal with a long almost canine muzzle.

[Ollie 1,059]

The water is shallow so you would expect to see some of the remains.

What's the year for the Black Rock coming to the island?

I'm guessing if the statue is true Egyptian, it's been around for a much longer time. Yet when we see it at the begining of the show, and I'm guessing the ship was the Black Rock, it looks in great shape.

Yet when we see it in modern times the foot and partial leg are only available. Which is why I'm wondering if the bomb had something to do with it, although the rest of the island should show effects as well. Or did something else happen on the island to cause it to fall apart?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Is that a fish or Anubis' eye between them?

Anyways from what I remember of Egyptian mythology, there is more to the question "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" than just a code for I know Jacob. Some research on shadows in Egyptian mythology tells us this:

Like other components making up an individual, the shadow was both viewed as a component of its owner, and as a separate mode of existence. Furthermore, the image of a god that was carved on a temple wall could at times be referred to as the god's shadow, and even the temple itself was sometimes known as the shadow of its deity.

[Jay 37,347]

Oh, oh, oh!!!

Remember when Eko told Locke, "You're next." If the monster really is this Man #2, that would make perfect sense.

How so? Smokey didn't kill Locke, Ben did

Yes I mentioned a little earlier that the statue looks more like Set or Seth, the god of desert and chaos from Egyptian pantheon who is the adversary of the "good" gods like Ra and Horus. Set was reprsented having a hippopotamus or a crocodile head but also a strange unidentifiable animal with a long almost canine muzzle.

Its a statue of Taweret (link)

What's the year for the Black Rock coming to the island?

1845 (link)

[Ollie 1,059]

I'm guessing the statue was on the island hundreds of years before the Black Rock came, so something must have happened in the 162 years between them and now to cause it to fall apart.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Its a statue of Taweret (link)

No.

so something must have happened in the 162 years between them and now to cause it to fall apart.

You should be called Mark Obvious instead of Olivarez.

[Jay 37,347]

The official recap at ABC.COM confirms that it's Taweret (link)

The Man in Black leaves and addresses the Man in White as Jacob. Yes, this is Jacob. The camera pulls back over the ocean, and we see they were sitting on the base of a giant stone foot. And next to the foot is another foot -- and both feet have four toes. And as the camera pulls back, we see what we've been waiting to see since we first glimpsed that four-toed foot over three years ago... the towering, majestic statue of the Egyptian goddess Taweret.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

And you believe it?!

[Incanus 5,714]

Its a statue of Taweret (link)

I stand corrected Now to dig up possible connections between the Island, Jacob and the possible statue of Taweret

[Jay 37,347]

And you believe it?!

Why shouldn't I?

Lostpedia accepts it as canon as well:

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Four-toed_statue

[Ollie 1,059]

And you believe it?!

Heavens forbid ABC would tell the truth about one of their own shows.

so something must have happened in the 162 years between them and now to cause it to fall apart.

You should be called Mark Obvious instead of Olivarez.

Smart ass.

Did the bomb do it? Did a piece of Oceanic 814 hit it? Did the magnetic field from the island do it?

[Jay 37,347]

Perhaps the same event that destroys the statue also brought The Black Rock to the middle of the island

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Considering we haven't even seen the front of the statue, I'm gonna saw it's not Taweret. First of it's a goddess, and I fail to see womanly features on that statue. We have a side view, nothing more. It would make sense about the motherhood thing, connecting to the pregnancy problems on the island.

[Ollie 1,059]

Perhaps the same event that destroys the statue also brought The Black Rock to the middle of the island

Yes that's a good point.

How did it arrive inland?