Lost

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Jason, maybe it's just me, but the real reason I keep watching this show is because of the characters; their motivations, where they come from and where they're heading. I'd rather sit down for an hour and see Michael Emerson act the pants off everyone around him with his eyes alone than to learn more about Jacob's mysterious touching.

Just sayin'.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

But she's from France, right? So how does her daughter Alex end up living in LA? And it just seemed like to much a coincidence to me that she'd end up bumping into Ben. I dunno. And all the scenes between her and Ben were creepy. Who studies one-on-one with a teacher after school hours in the library? And talks to them in such a casual way? Also the actress who plays her is WAY too old to be playing a high school student LOL (not that LOST is the first show to have this problem)

I would suggest stepping outside of this seeming pre-conceived notion of how things should be before making the statement "I think this is all wrong."

None of the things you mentioned are at all out of the ordinary in this world.

Oh and a Lost moment, and to drive home a point about coincidenses: I was born and raised in California. I now live in North Carolina, 2500 air miles away. My elementary/middle school best friend (who I have had no contact with since 1994), older brother, works at the same company I do. How freaking insane is that?

[Bryant Burnette 654]

I'll have to re-watch it next week (enhanced episode). I was distracted by the Avatar thread

Not that I'm criticizing (I'm not), but the day I let anything related to Avatar distract me from a new episode of Lost is the day before I give up the internet.

[Olivier 5]

I didn't think about it while I was watching the episode, but the contrast is great - in the original timeline, he killed his father by putting gas into his lungs. In the alternate timeline, he's keeping his father alive by putting gas into his lungs.

Darn! It's so obvious I'm ashamed not to have realized it instantly! The story and acting are so engrossing it's hard not to just let it flow and carry you without thinking. I did have slight notion the gas canister was improtant, but didn't stop to think about it.

I hope we won't have to wait till next year to have Season 6 on CD. I have never understood the logic in releasing the music one year later; were it a the same time the next season starts, it would be logical-- but after the next season has ended? They ought to release Season 6 later this year; even the fans of the show will have forgotten about the music in May 2011, and there will be nothing to tie a release to (no new season, and no new DVD/BR set, since the complete season will be released this summer).

A great episode, as was expected for one centered on Ben, with great moments:

- chosing between the job and Alex-- and they really fooled us into believing he had picked the job when they showed him entering the office at the end

- Ben taking care of his father

- Miles and Ben while he's diggin his grave ("Right to the last minute he hoped he was wrong about you. He was."-- from memory)

- and of course, above all, Ben and Ilana; wonderful ("He's the only one who'll have me!")

Plus those great bits with Richard:

- "Don't believe anything Jacob tells you!" (I'm paraphrasing)

- "Want to try another stick?"

What Richard and Miles said about Jacob proves he is not that omnipotent and all-knowing, and that everything did not exactly go as planned.

I thought he had let Ben stab him because he knew he could then pull an Obi-Wan Kenobi on everyone, but it turns out he was truly hoping, and overly confident, that Ben would not stab him; he was right he believing there was some (a lot) of good in him, but not about the timing and this particular decision.

This is most interesting, as it both makes Jacob more human (because fallible) and makes everything even more uncertain (things don't work as expected and planned).

It also strongly suggestst that he had not planned on Sayid getting claimed, and that insisting on getting him to the Temple's pool to be ressucitated was a mistake that resulted in Puffy getting a very dangerous ally.

Amazing episode, once again Michael Emerson just keeps getting better and better as Ben. I struggled to keep the tears in when he had the confrontation with Ilana. The final desperate cry "no-one else will have me" really hit me. Ben is truly one of the most tragic characters on the show, along with the real John Locke, and like that character it was warming to see his flash-sideways bring some peace to his otherwise pathetic life.

As I said earlier in this thread, both are equally tragic characters; both strove to do the best for The Island, for the ultimate good, and made sacrifices (Boone & Alex); Ben turned into a villain because he felt it necessary; in the end, they were both completely broken.

Locke could not be saved, but Ben has a chance for redemption, and this scene strongly appears to have been that moment, as Ilana forgave him in some way and he joined her team (this being the right choice was emphasized by his looking at the rifle and putting it away).

Great, believable characterization.

Observations from Dr. Linus:

As we saw in LA X, the island is at the bottom of the ocean now. But Roger and Ben still went there to join the DHARMA Initiative at some point. What made them leave?

Hmmm-- that big bomb that blew up?

It did not irradiate everything and make the Island uninhabitable because it mostly countered the Incident, but the shoot out and this certainly prompted many to leave the Island, which then sank.

This must have shocked Ben's father so much that he changed his ways.

After Ben told Ilana he was going to go to Locke, she said she'd have him too. Did Ben convince her with his speech, or did she think they would all be better off if Ben didn't join Locke?

Both.

Her initial reaction was anger, which demanded retribution, because "Jacob was the closest thing to a father [she] ever had". She was giving way to the Dark Side of the Force, so to speak.

Ben's confession-cum-explanation made her realize she was wrong in believing him totally evil and lost; he was not a claimed soul but a lost soul, lonely and frightened, that needed compassion, not violence and tempting promises.

[crocodile 8,006]

Both.

Her initial reaction was anger, which demanded retribution, because "Jacob was the closest thing to a father [she] ever had". She was giving way to the Dark Side of the Force, so to speak.

Ben's confession-cum-explanation made her realize she was wrong in believing him totally evil and lost; he was not a claimed soul but a lost soul, lonely and frightened, that needed compassion, not violence and tempting promises.

This scene could be cheesy as hell, but, inexplicably, it works very well. It's not the first time they give Emerson potentially awful material which he then turns into gold.

Karol

[Ollie 1,059]

Since it's obvious now, in the alternate timeline, that Ben and his father were on the island at one point, what drove them to leave?

[Jay 37,352]

Well yea, that was never in question.

The timeline split in 1977 when the Jughead did or didn't go off. Everything before then is identical in both timelines, which means:

-Jacob and MIB have still been there forever

-The Black Rock with Richard on it still crashed there

-The army still went there in the 50's, and were killed by The Others, who took control of Jughead

-The Dharma Initiative still went there, still built the stations, etc.

What is unclear (I think) is whether or not the time traveling still happened. Theoretically it should have - theoretically, Sawyer/Miles/Juliette/Faraday/etc joined the Dharma Initiative in 1974, lived with them till 1977 when they were joined by Jack/Kate/Hurley/Sayid/etc. Theoretically Sayid still shot Ben who was taken to the Temple by the Others and healed. But this all gets confusing because those were the original timeline versions of those characters not the sideways versions, so I dunno how they are gonna resolve it.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

-Jacob and MIB have still been there forever

Not necessarily.

[Jay 37,352]

What do you mean?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Well how do we know they've been there forever? Jacob could just be an ordinary man sent to the Island and ended up winning the candidacy, so to speak. He's obviously mortal, and just simply doesn't age, like Richard.

[Jay 37,352]

Sorry I didn't mean to imply forever forever, just as far back as we've already seen (the black rock approaching on the beach)

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Ah, gotcha.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

So my brother was watching Season 1 at a friend's house, and he said there's this close-up shot of Locke in one of the first few episodes, and before it cuts to commercial you can hear the smoke monster sounds faintly. I need to check it out for myself, but I do recall this spiraling shot of him on the beach. If it's true, then kudos to the writers for one extreme case of foreshadowing.

[TownerFan 4,983]

So my brother was watching Season 1 at a friend's house, and he said there's this close-up shot of Locke in one of the first few episodes, and before it cuts to commercial you can hear the smoke monster sounds faintly. I need to check it out for myself, but I do recall this spiraling shot of him on the beach. If it's true, then kudos to the writers for one extreme case of foreshadowing.

Mm, I don't think so. However, maybe he's referring to that pivotal moment in "Walkabout": Locke is really the first character to be confronted with Smokey. In the following episode ("White Rabbit") he says to Jack that he looked right into the eyes of the Island and what he saw was beautiful. But then, the character never returns on that particular experience nor he says anything to anyone about it. This is something I hope the writers will explain during this last season.

What Locke saw? Was it Smokey/MiB? Was it something else?

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Yeah I remember that moment, it was the first time we saw the monster not kill anybody.

[TownerFan 4,983]

In the latest podcast Damon & Carlton talked about Smokey/MiB and his ability to be a shape-shifter and they hinted that the fact he's now stuck into Locke's body is probably the consequence of Jacob's killing (and that ties with my theory that Jacob and the MiB are actually two sides of a single entity).

However, it appears a huge chunk of Island mythology will be revealed in Episode 9.

[Jay 37,352]

I'd spoiler block that, Joe doesn't like to read those kinds of things for some reason

[TownerFan 4,983]

Done. Sorry!

[Jay 37,352]

The latest podcast was good, they also revealed that Annie, Ben's childhood friend, isn't part of some larger story that will be revealed at some point. It was just there for his character development within that episode. And when he called Juliet "her", he was referring to Annie.

In other news, the March 23 episode will now run 66 minutes long (from 9:00-10:06), so be careful with those DVRs. SO EXCITED FOR THIS EPISODE.

Episode 16's title has also been revealed, here's the latest list:

6.01/2 - Tuesday Feb 2 - LA X - Various

6.03 - Tuesday Feb 9 - What Kate Does - Kate

6.04 - Tuesday Feb 16 - The Substitute - Locke

6.05 - Tuesday Feb 23 - Lighthouse - Jack

6.06 - Tuesday Mar 2 - Sundown - Sayid

6.07 - Tuesday Mar 9 - Dr. Linus - Ben

6.08 - Tuesday Mar 16 - Recon - Sawyer

6.09 - Tuesday Mar 23 - Ab Aeterno - Richard Alpert (flashback)

6.10 - Tuesday Mar 30 - The Package - Sun/Jin

6.11 - Tuesday Apr 6 - Happily Ever After - Desmond

6.12 - Tuesday Apr 13 - Everybody Loves Hugo - Hurley

6.13 - Tuesday Apr 20 - The Last Recruit - Various

6.14 - Tuesday Apr 27 - The Candidate -

6.15 - Tuesday May 4 - Across The Sea - Jacob /The Man In Black (flashback)

6.16 - Tuesday May 11 - What They Died For -

6.17/18 - Sunday May 23rd - Series Finale

[Datameister 2,042]

Whew...thanks for taking care of that!

EDIT: Bummer about Annie...I was still hoping there was some huge plot element there. Oh well...at least that mystery is solved.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Back to the whole foreshadowing thing. My brother was right. I was just reading the lengthy Lostpedia article on the Man In Black, and it mentions that you can hear the noises as Locke punches some numbers into a counting machine, right before the first commercial in Walkabout.

And the 16th episode title is oh so fantastic.

[TownerFan 4,983]

The latest podcast was good, they also revealed that Annie, Ben's childhood friend, isn't part of some larger story that will be revealed at some point. It was just there for his character development within that episode. And when he called Juliet "her", he was referring to Annie.

They also hinted at something that could be potentially good or potentially bad at the same time: answering to a guy who was asking if the Dharma food pallet origin will be explained, D&C said that that mystery will be explained... but not in the actual show. What does it mean? Are they already planning some sort of sequel in form of book/movie/whatever for all those things they clearly cannot afford in the remaining episodes?

[Jay 37,352]

Oh I remember that now. That was back when they were trying to tie real-world sounds to the sounds the monster makes.... like they picked cash register sounds, and had Rose say it sounded like her home in Brooklyn, etc.

I don't think it's anything more than that

[fommes 153]

Mm, I don't think so. However, maybe he's referring to that pivotal moment in "Walkabout": Locke is really the first character to be confronted with Smokey. In the following episode ("White Rabbit") he says to Jack that he looked right into the eyes of the Island and what he saw was beautiful. But then, the character never returns on that particular experience nor he says anything to anyone about it. This is something I hope the writers will explain during this last season.

What Locke saw? Was it Smokey/MiB? Was it something else?

That has been "answered" already I think. It's pretty clear that it was Smokey, and since Smokey has the ability to show 'images' (like images of someone's life) it will have projected an idyllic image or something, it actually doesn't matter really, since it just had the function to have Locke feel even more 'home' on the island.

When fake Locke was talking to Ben about Locke, I believe he referred to this particular moment - when he saw that Locke is the only one that didn't want to leave the island - so he was 'chosen' for that reason.

Too bad we won't know more about the Annie subplot; but I assume the 'event' that happened while they were in the classroom will still get explained? And that thing about the volcano, too, I hope.

[Jay 37,352]

They did mention that the volcano will be referred to again, yes.

Oh! They also revealed that they will give us a definitive answer on where the food drop came from in "Lockedown". They said that they may or may not get to answer it within the show itself, but would reveal outside the show if they don't get to it.

[Bryant Burnette 654]

Sometime during season one, I read an interview with one of the producers (I think it was Lindelof, but it might have been Cuse or even Abrams) in which he talked at length about the influences on the show.

One of the main influences was Stephen King's novel The Stand, and in this interview they either stated outright or strongly hinted that eventually the story was going to involve the survivors getting split into two groups. In that scenario, Jack would be the leader of the good guys and Locke would be the equivalent of that story's Randall Flagg.

I've been watching Locke with that thought in mind ever since, so needless to say, the big reveal about him in the Season Five finale made me do a little fist-pump.

It's going to be fun to sit down and rewatch the whole series once it's finished. Hopefully, it'll be rewarding.

[Jay 37,352]

Yea I'd like to restart the whole show starting with Season 1 (I have them all on blu), I just don't know when I'll find the time

[Olivier 5]

As previously noted, we never saw the Monster at the beginning, and it may not be just a matter of special effects.

It is quite possible that Jacob and MiB are entities of the same kind, thus that they both have Smokey shapes.

Maybe we were not shown the Monster because it was not always MiB but sometimes Jacob too.

[Red 75]

One of the main influences was Stephen King's novel The Stand, and in this interview they either stated outright or strongly hinted that eventually the story was going to involve the survivors getting split into two groups. In that scenario, Jack would be the leader of the good guys and Locke would be the equivalent of that story's Randall Flagg.

I heard about that interview. Needless to say it's awesome and is further proof that they knew where they were going and weren't making it up as they went along (in a basic sense anyway, it would be absurd to think that they knew how the show would end when they were doing the pilot, since at that time they had no idea there would even be another episode).

[Datameister 2,042]

Yeah, they've admitted that during the filming of the pilot, they had absolutely no idea where they were going to take this. But either they soon developed some inklings, or they're very good at perpetuating myths about the show's creation while making use of early ideas in such a way that they look like they knew what they were doing.

I must admit, as much as I love Lost, I think it'd be even better if they'd known from the very beginning EXACTLY how many episodes they were going to be doing, and they'd roadmapped the entire thing in great detail even while writing pilot. Of course, it'd be ridiculous to expect that to happen in reality, but I'm just saying, in an alternate universe where it'd happened, I think the show would have been even more amazing. None of the silly detours...everything driving toward the endgame.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I must admit, as much as I love Lost, I think it'd be even better if they'd known from the very beginning EXACTLY how many episodes they were going to be doing, and they'd roadmapped the entire thing in great detail even while writing pilot. Of course, it'd be ridiculous to expect that to happen in reality, but I'm just saying, in an alternate universe where it'd happened, I think the show would have been even more amazing. None of the silly detours...everything driving toward the endgame.

I disagree completely. There's planning, then there's overplanning. A work of art like Lost needs some breathing room to evolve naturally in addition to the guiding hand of the writers. We'd otherwise miss out on great episodes like The Constant.

But then you've mentioned before you don't understand The Constant and what's so special about it. So I guess that's a pretty piss poor argument.

[Datameister 2,042]

I disagree completely. There's planning, then there's overplanning. A work of art like Lost needs some breathing room to evolve naturally in addition to the guiding hand of the writers. We'd otherwise miss out on great episodes like The Constant.

But then you've mentioned before you don't understand The Constant and what's so special about it. So I guess that's a pretty piss poor argument.

Oh, I like "The Constant" well enough...it just doesn't stand out to me as an unusually good episode. Well...it's at least unusually good for the first half of season 4. And you're right that some breathing room is necessary, but I think Lost has had a little too much of that.

Don't get me wrong, it's still got to be the most brilliantly planned out and executed show I've ever seen. That's a huge part of why it's my favorite.

[Red 75]

Yeah, they've admitted that during the filming of the pilot, they had absolutely no idea where they were going to take this. But either they soon developed some inklings, or they're very good at perpetuating myths about the show's creation while making use of early ideas in such a way that they look like they knew what they were doing.

From what I gather most of Season 1 was just set-up. It wasn't until the first season was over that they planned their long-term basic outline of where the show would be going and the eventual ending. Damon Lindelof and J.J. Abrams have both admitted that at the beginning they really didn't know exactly where they were going, like what would be in the hatch or what Dharma was. They were just concerned with making the best show possible.

[Datameister 2,042]

On a similar note, it's fun to take a look at the S1 OST track title "Monsters Are Such Innnteresting People" and pretend that this intentionally foreshadowed the eventual revelation that the Monster could manifest in the forms of people, and perhaps even was once human, too.

[ashinyobject 0]

I think some things, like the drop, will be explained in the LOST Encyclopedia.

[Jay 37,352]

Yea I'm looking forward to checking that out

[Bryant Burnette 654]

I think it's perfectly okay that some ideas were not planned from the outset. Not all novelists have the entire plot in mind when they begin writing; lots of details, detours, and entirely new ideas are bound to present themselves along the way, and the novelist would have to be awfully obstinate to just ignore them and plow straight ahead.

The problem lies in the fact that the novelist has the opportunity to revise the novel once the first draft has been completed. Television producers don't have that luxury, and for that reason, there will probably never be a multi-season series that truly holds together the way a great novel does.

[Datameister 2,042]

I was going to type up something very similar to your second paragraph, but you beat me to my counterargument.

Another subplot that has seemingly vanished: Ben's attachment to Juliet. And that's a weird one, because beyond a few references to their "history" at the beginning of season 3, "The Other Woman" is the only episode that does anything with that. He hasn't seemed at all perturbed by not seeing her for three years, and with Juliet now dead in the main timeline, it's looking less likely than ever that that's ever going to amount to anything. It's not totally out of the question, but still. They made it out like it was going to be a big deal - Juliet and Jack being an item, then Ben discovering them together and it becoming a big problem. But there's been no payoff.

[Danielle 0]

I disagree completely. There's planning, then there's overplanning. A work of art like Lost needs some breathing room to evolve naturally in addition to the guiding hand of the writers. We'd otherwise miss out on great episodes like The Constant.

... And there'd be no Ben Linus.

I think it's perfectly okay that some ideas were not planned from the outset. Not all novelists have the entire plot in mind when they begin writing; lots of details, detours, and entirely new ideas are bound to present themselves along the way, and the novelist would have to be awfully obstinate to just ignore them and plow straight ahead.

Babylon 5 comes to mind - A series that spent 5 years continually swerving all over the road to make the master plan fit in with the realities of actors getting fed up and leaving, studio interference, threatened cancellation, etc.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

If we go back, there's tons of stuff that we'll find that seemed huge and probably won't get answered.

Walt is the biggest one IMO. His relation to polar bears and other animals, why he was so special, the events that occurred in Room 23, etc. From what we've gathered about future episodes and such, it seems very likely that this one will be something they'll explain off air.

And on the topic of Ben and Juliet, Ben made it seem that she looking like Jack's ex-wife wasn't coincidence.

There's also the whole thing about time differentiation when on and off the island, and the problems that occur when not following the correct heading. However, I feel this will be explained along with what the island actually is.

They said we'll still see Claire and Aaron leaving the island on a helicopter as seen by Desmond in his flashes. I really want him back on the show and involved with on island events.

There are all these big questions left, and we end up getting something like what happened to Shannon's inhalers answered

[Datameister 2,042]

Spoiler tags on that second-to-last item would have been appreciated, Koray. =/

[Jay 37,352]

I don't think Darlton ever actually said what Koray thinks they said. Of course we'll never see Claire and Aaron getting off the island in a helicopter; Aaron is already off the island.

But yes I agree, I miss Desmond immensely. What's up with the actor being in the opening credits of every episode, but so far he's only been in one episode? Good gig. I still want to know what's up with him in the alt timeline

[Datameister 2,042]

Not knowing any of the future episode titles, I'm sure we'll see Des sooner or later...

But it is theoretically possible that Aaron could get on a chopper leaving the Island...if the two timelines somehow get merged and he ends up back on the Island...it's a stretch, but not TOTALLY impossible.

[Jay 37,352]

I meant that the vision showed baby-Aaron, and he's 3-4 years old now. I can't see how the timelines will merge until the show first shows us what the flash-sideways characters are up to through 2007

[Datameister 2,042]

Me neither...I'm mostly done theorizing. Just gonna hang on for the ride now.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Sorry Joe, I thought it was commonly known, since I recall hearing about it ages ago. But I guess I might be wrong according to Jay. I don't know!

However, how do we know that Desmond saw baby Aaron? I believe all he said was Claire and Aaron, and I'm one of those that thinks the little blonde kid MIB saw was Aaron.

[TownerFan 4,983]

Mm, I don't think so. However, maybe he's referring to that pivotal moment in "Walkabout": Locke is really the first character to be confronted with Smokey. In the following episode ("White Rabbit") he says to Jack that he looked right into the eyes of the Island and what he saw was beautiful. But then, the character never returns on that particular experience nor he says anything to anyone about it. This is something I hope the writers will explain during this last season.

What Locke saw? Was it Smokey/MiB? Was it something else?

That has been "answered" already I think. It's pretty clear that it was Smokey, and since Smokey has the ability to show 'images' (like images of someone's life) it will have projected an idyllic image or something, it actually doesn't matter really, since it just had the function to have Locke feel even more 'home' on the island.

When fake Locke was talking to Ben about Locke, I believe he referred to this particular moment - when he saw that Locke is the only one that didn't want to leave the island - so he was 'chosen' for that reason.

Yes, I thought the same too, but I think there's more to that. I think it's important to know what Locke exactly saw in that moment.

It appears Smokey/MiB chose Locke to be the victim of a kind of "long con" in regard of Jacob. Wasn't the MiB who said "help me" to Locke when he was in the Jacob's cabin? Wasn't the MiB (appearing as Christian Shephard) who told Locke to move the Island?

[Jay 37,352]

I agree that Smokey chose Locke for a long con, though I doubt that's what the writers had in mind when they wrote that Season 1 scene. However, I think they can work it into their current plans nicely

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Posted by the Lost fan page on Facebook:

The countdown to the end continues - We have 9 new episodes until the series finale! Tonight at 9|8c on ABC,

Flocke tasks Sawyer with some "Recon" and you'll see a favorite return -- who is she and what brings her back into the picture?

[Jay 37,352]

Press release:

LOCKE TASKS SAWYER WITH A MISSION, ON ABC'S "LOST"

Rebecca Mader

Guest Stars as

Charlotte

"Recon" Locke tasks Sawyer with a mission, on "Lost," TUESDAY, MARCH 16 (9:00-10:00 p.m., ET) on the ABC Television Network.

"Lost" stars Naveen Andrews as Sayid, Nestor Carbonell as Richard Alpert, Emilie de Ravin as Claire, Michael Emerson as Ben, Jeff Fahey as Frank Lapidus, Matthew Fox as Jack, Jorge Garcia as Hurley, Josh Holloway as Sawyer, Daniel Dae Kim as Jin, Yunjin Kim as Sun, Ken Leung as Miles, Evangeline Lilly as Kate, Terry O'Quinn as Locke and Zuleikha Robinson as Ilana.

Guest starring are

Alan Dale as Charles Widmore, Rebecca Mader as Charlotte Lewis, Kimberley Joseph as Cindy, Neil Hopkins as Liam Pace, Sheila Kelley as Zoe, Jodi Lyn O'Keefe as Ava, Fred Koehler as Seamus, Allen Cole as duty sergeant, Mickey Graue as Zack, Kiersten Havelock as Emma, Christopher Johnson as police officer and Michael Green as lawyer.

"Recon" was written by Elizabeth Sarnoff & Jim Galasso and directed by Jack Bender.

Clips from the episode:

Clip #1:

Clip #2: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=gYm3HbEACbs

Clip #3:

Anybody want to predict that we will see

Charlie Pace

in the episode, since

his brother

is in it?

Also forgot to mention that Lost Untangled for Dr. Linus is up:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=nZD37NWq8bY