Lost

[Datameister 2,042]

Like Faraday said, there is free will. Locke could have easily changed the past by not telling Richard to go take the bullet out of his own leg.

There's free will, sure. But once you already know what people's free will leads them to do because you've already seen it happen, you can't change that. It wouldn't make sense.

I think the term "The Others" is kinda obsolete It only really makes sense if you're talking about events in previous seasons. Like who the hell actually started the black smoke in the Season 1 finale? The Others or Danielle?

Nah, the term still makes perfect sense. Actually, it's a far more up-to-date term than "the Hostiles," since that's been out of use since 1992...

I also fear the writers have written themselves into a hole with the Time Travel...there were too many PoA moments in this episode and simultaneous time lines existing

Don't tell me you think it's a paradox for a person to see a past or future version of him/herself, too! =/

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Yeah that's what Incanus said. It seems like the most logical prediction.

[Incanus 5,714]

Didn't Jacob tell Locke to help him when they met at the cabin?

Perhaps killing him will set him free

?

Yes that's what I was speculating above myself.

EDIT you beat me to it Koray.

[Ollie 1,059]

Oops, sorry.

[Jay 37,351]

You guys don't have to spoiler block something that is pure speculation not based on any spoilers

You ONLY have to spoiler block what's in the previews and if you read stuff online about future episodes

In other words, Joe, those spoiler bars are 100% safe to read. Just speculation

[Datameister 2,042]

::reads "spoiler"::

Meh, maybe. Seems to me like Locke would have just said that, though. But yeah, no need to spoilerize speculation, perhaps unless it's such an incredibly solid and earth-shaking theory that it absolutely has to be true.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Great discussion, guys. Really interesting thoughts on the whole Jacob/Christian/Richard/etc connections. Christian's existense as an actual corporeal form is certainly questionable; on one hand, he's carrying baby Aaron, holding lanterns, etc, while other times he appears in seemingly impossible places like the freighter and Jack's hospital in Season 4 (unless that was just Jack going nutty). Although, teleportation of some kind seems to play a part on the Island, as seen with Harper appearing to Juliet and Jack, so that could be what's going on if he's not just an apparition.

As far as Jacob is concerned, I like the thought of killing him actually meaning setting him free. Another thought: could Jacob be someone we already know, possibly existing as he has for decades through the use of time travel? Maybe during Locke's vision quest he learned the truth and has to kill Jacob to prevent something from happening in the future. Although at this point I don't even know what I mean when I say the future.

In this last episode I actually kinda loved Kate...I think she spoke for the audience with her disbelief that Jack would erase their entire time together. "It was not all misery"....broke my heart!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I've been on the teleportation thing since Season 2. I pretty much knew there were Others and Hostlies before I actually knew. Hostiles being Richard and his people, Others being Ben and his people (i.e. Goodwin, Ethan, and Tom). I think the Hostiles have the ability to walk silently and weirdly (as seen by Eko and Jin, and by Jack, Kate and Sawyer in the Season 2 finale) as well as teleport wherever they want. They are the whispers.

[King Mark 3,631]

Hostiles =Others

so far the only one we know is "different" is Richard Alpert

[Koray Savas 2,251]

No, the Hostiles do not equal the Others. Hostiles = the Natives while Others = Former Dharma Initiative and other people Ben may have brought from the mainland.

[King Mark 3,631]

I'm sure Datameister will clarify this

Juliet was brought from the mainland ,Ben is the only one from the Darmah

[Koray Savas 2,251]

You can't prove that. Obviously Ben isn't the only one because he brought Ethan with him. I seriously doubt Tom and Goodwin and all the people that we've come to know in Season 3 were Natives on the island.

The reason Juliet was brought to the island was to try and solve the pregnancy problem (which just disppeared in the show). You think she was the first person they tried to bring to help?

[Datameister 2,042]

Others = Hostiles + more people from the outside.

Let us not forget a few important things:

* Ben mentions intentionally leaving a trail so Locke can follow them back in S3. He can do the stealth mode just like the rest of them.

* The people Danielle referred to as the Others WERE the Hostiles. Alex was taken before the Purge. She and the survivors then used the term for the Others in the present, too.

* The pre-Purge Hostiles comprise people of all different backgrounds. Eloise and Charles are British, for instance, while many of them speak like Americans. This suggests that the Hostiles ALSO consisted at least partly of people brought in from the outside. In other words, the Hostiles are NOT all native.

So basically, they're synonymous. It's the same group of people, but with some modifications in different time periods. A group doesn't cease to be the same group just because there's some turnover in the membership, or because someone else decides to start calling them by a different name.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Well, yes, there was some overlapping. But when they were calling them Others, I believe the people we saw were predominantly Dharma-related people and others brought from the mainland.

The Hostiles have always been seen in rags. Others have been clean and well kept.

Rewatch the scene where Eko and Jin are hiding the bushes and the scene when Jack, Kate and Sawyer are paralyzed by darts and then bagged by people from the woods. There's a certain way they move. If everyone can go "stealth" mode, then why did Kate easily spot some idiot Others in the jungle when Michael was taking them to Ben?

[Datameister 2,042]

Well, yes, there was some overlapping. But when they were calling them Others, I believe the people we saw were predominantly Dharma-related people and others brought from the mainland.

You believe, but you have zero evidence of that. We know of a few. All we have beyond that is Ben's word...Ben, who claimed he was one of the few who'd been born on the Island. And that obviously wasn't true.

The Hostiles have always been seen in rags. Others have been clean and well kept.

Someone needs to re-watch seasons 2, 4, and 5... The only time the Others were "clean and well-kept" was while they were living in the Barracks and other Dharma establishments.

Rewatch the scene where Eko and Jin are hiding the bushes and the scene when Jack, Kate and Sawyer are paralyzed by darts and then bagged by people from the woods. There's a certain way they move. If everyone can go "stealth" mode, then why did Kate easily spot some idiot Others in the jungle when Michael was taking them to Ben?

I remember that clearly. Remember, it's not that the Others go invisible - it's that they can choose not to leave a trail or make sounds as they move through the jungle. Of course Kate could spot them if they got close enough. I think YOU need to re-watch that scene...it depicts your precious "well-kept" Others in rags. It's partially a deception, of course, but they DID revert to that style of dress after leaving the Barracks.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

You all know I'm right! It'll all be revealed soon. For now, I am off to class.

[King Mark 3,631]

Well, yes, there was some overlapping. But when they were calling them Others, I believe the people we saw were predominantly Dharma-related people and others brought from the mainland.

Darmah Initiative: Women and children were evacuated before the Incident , and the ones left behind built the hatch then were wiped out in the Purge. Probably a few odd ones survived because they were in the hatch pushing the button.

The Hostiles (previously living in the jungle in the huts ) moved into the Darmah barracks and stations and borrowed their old uniforms and were called "The Others" by the survivors in seasons 2 and 3.

Are you watching the same TV show than I am?

Or the show getting so complex that people start to lose focus of who is who?

[Jay 37,351]

Dharma, not Darmah

[Olivier 5]

I certainly wasn't expecting Locke to want to bring everyone to Jacob, or for him to want to kill him

I'm thinking there's a piece of the story we haven't seen yet, something to do with when we last saw Locke and when he showed up at Richard's camp at the beginning of this episode. He had to get his ideas from somewhere.

Don't forget the time when he went for a walk in the jungle (he returned when Ben was actually expecting Smokey).

(as noted in messages following the one I quoted, which I have now read)

Then Richard is yet ANOTHER party in all this. Ostensibly, he can be wounded or killed - notice how he does put his hands up when threatened at gunpoint - but he's ageless. And he seems to know where Jacob is.

No, Highlanders can only be killed by behading th-- oops, wrong storyline.

He may just have been humoring Daniel and trying not to reveal his invulnerability (if he is invulnerable).

They have all faced their past, their demons and grown as people throught their experiences. To her it is offensive that Jack would like to erase that past 3 years just like that as if they did not mean anything to him.

"Damn it, [Jack], you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with a wave of a magic wand. They're the things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are. If we lose them, we lose ourselves. I don't want my pain taken away! I need my pain!"

I loved the way Locke is so full of purpose.

I liked his crafty, knowing smile all the way through.

Both Ben and Richard are obviously worried as if some delicate plan hidden even from the Others will unravel when Locke seeks Jacob. Perhaps killing Jacob is a metaphor, perhaps killing is setting him free from what is keeping him on the Island and that is why he asked Locke to help him.

Or revealing that "the man behind the curtain" actually is just that: not a wizard or a godlike entity, but a puppet?

Given all the fantastic happenings on the Island, I don't think Jacob boils down to an elaborate scam carried over the centuries.

perhaps Ben and Richard fear that in his rashness Locke might cause more damage than good to all of them with his actions.

Like when he decided no longer to enter the numbers?

I wonder what are they controlling with this "magic circle"? Jacob? His existence on the normal plane? His powers?

This magic circle probably keeps him imprisoned in the cabin; the cabin moves around, but he cannot wander about on his own.

What an excellent episode!

Locke's final line was a stunning surprise.

[Red 75]

I have a feeling Locke is in way over his head. He seems to have become too confident, wanting to overthrow Jacob (which may be a foolish act) rather than to bring the castaways back to the present (lying to Sun anyone?). It is yet another parallel this season has to Season 2, with Locke not entering the numbers into the computer causing the Swan station to implode. He was wrong then and he could be wrong now, or maybe it will all work out for the best, who knows. What I do know is that this is going to be one heck of a season finale, but pretty much all of them are.

I wonder what Hurley, Miles, and Jin are going to do now that Sawyer is off to the mainland, although I doubt that he, Juliet, and Kate will really get there.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

If you watched the preview,

you would know Sawyer, Juliet, and Kate are back on the island are trying to stop Jack by all means necessary.

[Morlock 11]

I'm in awe of how you guys manage to sort through and remember all these different scenes and events. I'm probably the most passive Lost viewer in the world.

Morlock- who liked the episode a lot

Morlock2- who loves any episode that 'Hollywood and Vines' appears in (even in the heavy, dirge-like version it was used in the latest episode)

[Datameister 2,042]

All right, time to watch "Follow the Leader" again! Some thoughts as I go...

* "I remember them because...I watched them all die." I see several options. Richard could be lying...or Richard could be mistaken...or they really did die, but the past can be changed...or they really did die, period.

* "If there's a way to save our people, I'll find it." Interesting to hear John refer to the Losties as his people. Kinda touching, except for when you think about the fact that he apparently has no intention of going back in time.

* Jack wanting to change things is either noble or sad, depending on how you look at it; Kate wanting to NOT change things is either romantic or terribly selfish, depending on how you look at it.

* Young Eloise's voice bothers me. She looks enough like the older version, but her accent is different. I've said it before...they really should just dub in the normal actors' voices. A person's voice really doesn't change too much over the course of adulthood.

* "I will kill you." First rule of effective torture: Never make a promise without following through!

* Again...Dr. Chang interrogating Hurley? Yeah...funniest moment of the whole season. I ROFLed.

* "The man you're asking about, Jack, is Charles Widmore." I'm sorry, but this is yet another instance of characters being poorly introduced in the past. It sounds too much like Richard knows that Jack knows about Widmore. He should have just said, "His name is Charles Widmore." Same goes for Ben saying, "I'm Ben," and Charles saying, "I'm Charles." Once would be okay, I guess, but this keeps happening. It's not realistic...it's intended to make us, the audience, go, "Oooh! Ahhh!" instead of informing the characters who's who in a realistic way.

* I think this is confirmation that while the initial flash of the Island moving was visible to everyone, the rest of the time-hopping stuff was not visible as flashes to the people who weren't...flashing. Locke just disappeared (with a cool popping noise!)...no flash of light. Which makes sense, because Kate delivered Aaron without being distracted by the bright flash of Sawyer leaving...

* I really thought Kate had been shot for a sec there, after the way our dear friend Joey posted that rumor about Evangeline Lilly not being on for season six.

* It was stupid how Sayid slowly stood up out of the bushes. He should have stood up quickly, gun drawn. Again, the audience's gut reaction is made a higher priority than the realism...but the gut reaction suffers as a result. Oh well. Still an awesome episode, and I'm glad to have Sayid back.

* I agree that it was nice seeing that Dr. Chang really did care for his wife and kid. Actually, if you look at the left side of the screen as Juliet and Sawyer pull up, you can see him walking off, looking sad.

* "It's okay. Sawyer always has a plan, right?" "We'll buy Microsoft." Oy.

* I was POSITIVE Sawyer was going to close the submarine hatch after Juliet and stay behind. Watching the scene again, it still totally looks like that's what he was going to do. Weird.

* "All right...let's get started." Where have we heard that before? (Or rather...WHEN have we heard that before...)

* The whole thing about Locke taking everyone to see Jacob is brilliant. Taking everyone to see him kill Jacob? Even brillianter.

* The leak in "Jughead" is still visible! What the heck?

* Got to be one of the greatest episode endings this show has ever had.

And...a theme breakdown for you, Jason! Hopefully I didn't miss anything.

* Eloise's theme: She looks at Daniel's journal.

* Locke's first theme: He walks into camp with the dead boar.

* Ben's theme: "When I left the Island, he stepped in."

* Some variation of Locke's second theme that seems to represent Richard and Locke and the Monster and who knows what else: "He's a kind of adviser."

* Subtle and debatable variation on the main theme: "...I watched them all die."

* Very quiet statement of O6 theme: Jack and Kate argue in the tent.

* Weird, subtle statement of Eloise's theme: She describes Daniel taking her to the bomb in '53.

* An unidentified theme that mainly relates to Daniel and Eloise: "And I think that there's a way for you to take it all back."

* Jack's third motif (which I JUST added to the Lostpedia article in S3): "Your son came back because he'd figured out a way to change things."

* Daniel/Eloise theme again: Eloise closes Daniel's eyes.

* Locke/Richard/Monster/whatever theme again: Ben and Locke talk as Richard saves the other Locke.

* Jack's third motif again: He and Kate talk about Locke and his alleged craziness.

* Sawyer's love theme: He and Juliet talk on the dock.

* Saywer's theme (not the love theme): Juliet gets into the sub while Sawyer just stands there on the dock.

* Jack's third motif: He swims into the tunnels.

* Locke's first theme: He talks to all the Others about going to see Jacob.

* Sawyer's love theme: "Real world...I don't even know what that means anymore."

* Kate's theme: She gets handcuffed in the sub.

* Second traveling theme: The Others depart from the beach. Interestingly, this is the first time it's been associated with anyone other than the survivors.

* Mystery theme: Locke tells Ben why they're REALLY going to see Jacob, leaving Ben gaping as the Others walk by.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

* I was POSITIVE Sawyer was going to close the submarine hatch after Juliet and stay behind. Watching the scene again, it still totally looks like that's what he was going to do. Weird.

* "All right...let's get started." Where have we heard that before? (Or rather...WHEN have we heard that before...)

I thought that about Sawyer too.

As for Eloise's line: Wasn't it "What next?" She doesn't know how to get started , it's Jack's plan, or rather Faraday's.

[Datameister 2,042]

She said both. "All right...let's get started" came first, right after they entered the tunnels. That's a throwback to early season 5...

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Ah, right.

[Jacob 0]

I'm in awe of how you guys manage to sort through and remember all these different scenes and events. I'm probably the most passive Lost viewer in the world.

No, that would be me.

Still enjoying the hell out of the ride though, even if I don't remember or comprehend most of it.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

It's probably better that way. There's a lot in the show that has gone unanswered, and probably never will be. Trivial stuff that I obsess over!

[Jay 37,351]

And...a theme breakdown for you, Jason! Hopefully I didn't miss anything.

* Eloise's theme: She looks at Daniel's journal.

* Locke's first theme: He walks into camp with the dead boar.

* Ben's theme: "When I left the Island, he stepped in."

* Some variation of Locke's second theme that seems to represent Richard and Locke and the Monster and who knows what else: "He's a kind of adviser."

* Subtle and debatable variation on the main theme: "...I watched them all die."

* Very quiet statement of O6 theme: Jack and Kate argue in the tent.

* Weird, subtle statement of Eloise's theme: She describes Daniel taking her to the bomb in '53.

* An unidentified theme that mainly relates to Daniel and Eloise: "And I think that there's a way for you to take it all back."

* Jack's third motif (which I JUST added to the Lostpedia article in S3): "Your son came back because he'd figured out a way to change things."

* Daniel/Eloise theme again: Eloise closes Daniel's eyes.

* Locke/Richard/Monster/whatever theme again: Ben and Locke talk as Richard saves the other Locke.

* Jack's third motif again: He and Kate talk about Locke and his alleged craziness.

* Sawyer's love theme: He and Juliet talk on the dock.

* Saywer's theme (not the love theme): Juliet gets into the sub while Sawyer just stands there on the dock.

* Jack's third motif: He swims into the tunnels.

* Locke's first theme: He talks to all the Others about going to see Jacob.

* Sawyer's love theme: "Real world...I don't even know what that means anymore."

* Kate's theme: She gets handcuffed in the sub.

* Second traveling theme: The Others depart from the beach. Interestingly, this is the first time it's been associated with anyone other than the survivors.

* Mystery theme: Locke tells Ben why they're REALLY going to see Jacob, leaving Ben gaping as the Others walk by.

Wow Joe thanks! I'm actually going to skip through the episode again and check these themes out! Awesome!

[Red 75]

The latest Official LOST Podcast confirms that Daniel Faraday is dead. Not much else of interest was really relayed

Well, they did confirm that

Vincent is Jacob.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

I just rewatched the episode. Man I fucking love LOST! I also think Ben has never asked this many questions in his whole life

What I find strange is how they "disposed" of Jughead. Daniel told them to seal it with cement and bury it. I fail to see cement and it's not exactly buried.

Also, when Kate was handcuffed next to Juliet in the sub, I realized they were Bagingo Sisters

[Jay 37,351]

Yes and Jack and Sawyer are Wiener Cousins

[Olivier 5]

* "I remember them because...I watched them all die." I see several options. Richard could be lying...or Richard could be mistaken...or they really did die, but the past can be changed...or they really did die, period.

As I remember it, I don't think Sun was very specific and pointed her friends to him exactly on the picture; I don't think Richard studied the picture much either.

Therefore, he may have meant it in a generic sense: "I have watched them [= Dharma, therefore your friends, who had infiltrated Dharma] die".

Sawyer, Juliet and Kate (the latter is featured in the picture) are on the sub; they may not be able to go far, but they should at least be spared by the detonation of the bomb.

As for Jack (in the picture) and Sayid (not in the picture), while they are the closest people to the bomb on the Island, and had Richard could indeed have watched them die since he was with them, they are also the closest to Eloise, who is know to have survived-- unless they got separated at the very last moment (not being able to reach a safe place, for instance).

* "I will kill you." First rule of effective torture: Never make a promise without following through!

Have you seen Radzinsky's reaction to Phil's strong slapping of Juliet? Even this violent nut had not imagined going this far.

* It was stupid how Sayid slowly stood up out of the bushes. He should have stood up quickly, gun drawn. Again, the audience's gut reaction is made a higher priority than the realism...but the gut reaction suffers as a result. Oh well. Still an awesome episode, and I'm glad to have Sayid back.

Good point, but you can still account for it in a realistic way:

- either he prefers to be sure never to lose sight of anyone by moving too rapidly

- or, beside being a character trait, the slowness is calculated to impress by showing how coolly in control of the situation you are, as opposed to moving in a frenzied way.

* I was POSITIVE Sawyer was going to close the submarine hatch after Juliet and stay behind. Watching the scene again, it still totally looks like that's what he was going to do. Weird.

You too?

I thought that about Sawyer too.

You too, too?

His way of tarrying, saying whatever he was saying to her, making a point of letting her in first, also made me think he might escape to help the others, now Juliet was safe on the sub.

* Got to be one of the greatest episode endings this show has ever had.

Wotta surprise!

Ben's stunned look was priceless; he went from stunned to more stunned throughout the episode, with each of Locke's decisions and replies.

[Datameister 2,042]

As I remember it, I don't think Sun was very specific and pointed her friends to him exactly on the picture; I don't think Richard studied the picture much either.

Therefore, he may have meant it in a generic sense: "I have watched them [= Dharma, therefore your friends, who had infiltrated Dharma] die".

Sawyer, Juliet and Kate (the latter is featured in the picture) are on the sub; they may not be able to go far, but they should at least be spared by the detonation of the bomb.

As for Jack (in the picture) and Sayid (not in the picture), while they are the closest people to the bomb on the Island, and had Richard could indeed have watched them die since he was with them, they are also the closest to Eloise, who is know to have survived-- unless they got separated at the very last moment (not being able to reach a safe place, for instance).

Certainly, things are very convoluted. But remember last year, knowing that the O6 had to end up together on the helicopter but not seeing any way that could possibly happen? But yes, Sun actually was quite specific. She mentioned them by name and pointed at them individually. Richard looked at the picture and said that he remembered meeting them very clearly, and he remembered it because he watched them die. Now that I think about it, you could be right...maybe he IS referring to the Purge...but that would mean that the Losties just stuck around till then, which would be stupid of them!

Have you seen Radzinsky's reaction to Phil's strong slapping of Juliet? Even this violent nut had not imagined going this far.

Yeah, that was a good stunned look. I'm just saying that as a torturer, you don't say, "Right now, this is your last chance to tell me ________, or I will kill you," unless you plan on actually killing them. Because if you let them live after they don't tell you, they won't believe any of your other threats.

Ben's stunned look was priceless; he went from stunned to more stunned throughout the episode, with each of Locke's decisions and replies.

Seriously! Michael Emerson is so awesome as Ben. That would have been so terrible if they'd gone through with the original plan, which was just to have him guest star in a few S2 episodes, back when he was "Henry Gale." Good thing they caught on to what an amazing job he does!

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Datameister, he was always supposed to be a regular!

Koray, who likes to believe they had everything planned out from the beginning

[Red 75]

Koray, who likes to believe they had everything planned out from the beginning

They couldn't have planned everything out, logically speaking. Maybe since they set an end date for the show and mapped out the ending.

BTW, I'm pretty sure Charlie told Hurley about the Ajira flight back to the island, which would explain him carrying around his guitar.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Oh yeah, I wanted to mention that. Why is he still carrying it around? I don't think it's even Charlie's, but that's very possible.

I know they didn't have everything planned out, but I like to believe they did. It makes the show more "Holy shit that was awesome" than it already is.

[Red 75]

Oh yeah, I wanted to mention that. Why is he still carrying it around? I don't think it's even Charlie's, but that's very possible.

I know they didn't have everything planned out, but I like to believe they did. It makes the show more "Holy shit that was awesome" than it already is.

Unnecessary, the show is already awesome enough.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Yes but it makes it unbelievably more awesome. Like the U.S. Army knife Goodwin had, and then we learn the U.S. Army was doing bomb testing on the island. Makes it so much more awesome, although that may have actually been planned out. I don't know.

[Datameister 2,042]

While I'm positive they didn't know at that point that we would be time traveling back to when the Army was on the Island, I'd imagine they knew that the Island had once been occupied by the Army, and that the Others killed them.

But yeah, they've stated that in the beginning, they had no idea where things were going to go. The whispers were just supposed to be the Others whispering in the bushes...Henry Gale was going to be a character in just a few episodes...it really wasn't planned out. But once they set the end date, they say they figured it ALL out.

[King Mark 3,631]

I have a feeling the whole explanation of the time travel/multiple time lines will be like we saw in Star Trek.

[Olivier 5]

But yes, Sun actually was quite specific. She mentioned them by name and pointed at them individually. Richard looked at the picture and said that he remembered meeting them very clearly

Thanks for setting things right!

I'm just saying that as a torturer, you don't say, "Right now, this is your last chance to tell me ________, or I will kill you," unless you plan on actually killing them. Because if you let them live after they don't tell you, they won't believe any of your other threats.

Oh, absolutely, that's what I thought as well; I was just adding another remark on top of this-- and I knew Phil would strike Juliet.

BTW, I'm pretty sure Charlie told Hurley about the Ajira flight back to the island, which would explain him carrying around his guitar.

How do we even know it's a guitar? I don't remember seeing it. Maybe there's a secret weapon in this case.

[Datameister 2,042]

I have a feeling the whole explanation of the time travel/multiple time lines will be like we saw in Star Trek.

No spoilers, please...

[Red 75]

BTW, I'm pretty sure Charlie told Hurley about the Ajira flight back to the island, which would explain him carrying around his guitar.

How do we even know it's a guitar? I don't remember seeing it. Maybe there's a secret weapon in this case.

Ha, it's certainly possible.

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

On an unrelated note, I think I've finally come to terms with the "new" Ben. By that I mean the Ben who is no longer a leader of the Others. I really enjoyed watching him lead them in S3, and I desperately missed that in S4. He seemed kinda...declawed. "The Shape of Things to Come" was an appropriate turning point, I'd say, and he's gotten steadily more awesome ever since. But it definitely took me a while to come to FULLY accept him as someone who's not really an Other. It's kind of fun seeing him left in the dark so much, yet still crafty and manipulative. I expect great things from him.

At the very end of this episode, he suddenly reminded me very much of Gollum.

I also fear the writers have written themselves into a hole with the Time Travel...there were too many PoA moments in this episode and simultaneous time lines existing

Actually, POA, along with (so far) Lost is actually one of the most consistent time travel stories I know.

Like Faraday said, there is free will. Locke could have easily changed the past by not telling Richard to go take the bullet out of his own leg.

There's free will, sure. But once you already know what people's free will leads them to do because you've already seen it happen, you can't change that. It wouldn't make sense.

Then how is it free will? And aside from Faraday's final, possibly just delusional obsession, nobody ever told us the past could be changed or there actually is free will.

I have a feeling Locke is in way over his head. He seems to have become too confident, wanting to overthrow Jacob (which may be a foolish act) rather than to bring the castaways back to the present (lying to Sun anyone?).

I'm not sure he lied to her. It seemed to me that he's sincere in so far as his primary goal (which apparently turns out to be killing Jacob) would also help her find Jin, even though that's not his reason for doing it.

Or he may just be well on his way to becoming the new Ben.

[King Mark 3,631]

There's only one season left

We need to know soon what the "final goal" is.(the real point of the series)

[Datameister 2,042]

Actually, POA, along with (so far) Lost is actually one of the most consistent time travel stories I know.

Seriously!

Like Faraday said, there is free will. Locke could have easily changed the past by not telling Richard to go take the bullet out of his own leg.

There's free will, sure. But once you already know what people's free will leads them to do because you've already seen it happen, you can't change that. It wouldn't make sense.

Then how is it free will? And aside from Faraday's final, possibly just delusional obsession, nobody ever told us the past could be changed or there actually is free will.

You can have free will even if someone (a time traveler, God, etc.) knows what decisions you're going to make. Free will means you have conscious control over your choices and decisions, and you could always make a different decision if you wanted to. But if you travel into the future, you can see what someone is going to do and thus know it in advance, even though they still have free will. For instance: the Others/Hostiles decided to wipe out the Dharma Initiative. That was their choice. An act of free will. But the Losties, having come from a time period after that, already know that choice will be made. Doesn't mean it's not free will; it just means that a group of people already know the "future" outcome of that free will.

Let me rephrase what I said to make it slightly more accurate: Once you already know what people's free will leads them to do because you've already seen it happen, you don't change that. Because it's what happened. You could decide to change it, but either you won't make that decision or you'll try and fail.

[Red 75]

I have a feeling Locke is in way over his head. He seems to have become too confident, wanting to overthrow Jacob (which may be a foolish act) rather than to bring the castaways back to the present (lying to Sun anyone?).

I'm not sure he lied to her. It seemed to me that he's sincere in so far as his primary goal (which apparently turns out to be killing Jacob) would also help her find Jin, even though that's not his reason for doing it.

Or he may just be well on his way to becoming the new Ben.

It seemed rather malevolent to me, in that he's concerned with taking Jacob out and becoming the new supreme authority and not helping his friends. We know from past experiences that Locke is not a killer, or at least the old Locke wasn't. I don't know about this new and improved version, maybe he has gone to the dark side. He's done some crazy things before, but this is a new level. But again, it could all work out for the best.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but Jack and Locke have undergone a massive role-reversal. The former man of science Jack is going on about destiny while the previously man of faith Locke is demanding empirical proof of Jacob's existence and whereabouts. Both are doing extreme, possibly unintelligent things to prove their points.

[Jacob 0]

We know from past experiences that Locke is not a killer, or at least the old Locke wasn't.

What about when he knifed Naomi?

[Red 75]

We know from past experiences that Locke is not a killer, or at least the old Locke wasn't.

What about when he knifed Naomi?

Right, I forgot about that. I was thinking about the instance when he couldn't kill his fake father Anthony Cooper and got Sawyer to do it instead.