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Best 21st Century Williams Score: Round Eleven


robthehand

Which Is Your Least Favourite?  

62 members have voted

  1. 1.

    • Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone
      31
    • Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
      8
    • Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith
      23


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Steef, have you heard an expanded version of ROTS yet?

Ozzel - who voted HP and the SS

Yes I have.

ROTS is a fairly average score for a very troubled film.

It has only one new theme of any importance (Battle of The Heroes) and that one is no match for any of the themes from The Philosophers Stone.

Music from TESB has been very ackwardly shoved into newly composed music without any effort of making it flow together, outside of a few interesting statements of The Force theme ROTS really doesn't do anything new or interesting with any of the Old Star Wars themes and even the themes from the other 2 prequels are only paid lip service.

Like the previous 2 prequel scores ROTS has a few moments of brilliance surrounded by a mass of competent underscore, but it never comes together to form anything significant.

also the score looses further points for the rather lame recordings of 1977 Star Wars music for the end credits, and because it doesn't end with The Imperial March, thus ignoring the build up to it in the first 2 films.

I doubt he has.

Doubting something would mean that you sat down and thought about it.

You don't strike me as that kind of person.

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Like the previous 2 prequel scores ROTS has a few moments of brilliance surrounded by a mass of competent underscore, but it never comes together to form anything significant.

also the score looses further points for the rather lame recordings of 1977 Star Wars music for the end credits, and because it doesn't end with The Imperial March, thus ignoring the build up to it in the first 2 films.

You start off with a decent enough argument, but with that ending, I think you're just biased against accepting anything as good as the originals or Harry Potter.

What Sith has going for it that AOTC and TPM didn't have:

-The quieter stuff isn't just "filler" like in the others, it's actually interesting and plays a part. For instance, it's not just music for music's sake, like in AOTC, but instead actually improves scenes.

-You're right about there being only one main theme, but there's a brilliant march for Grievous and the way the old themes are interwoven is perfect. It's not just "thrown in there" as some have claimed. The few times the love theme from AOTC has been put in were hugely dramatic moments, and the renditions are perfect. Even the ESB music came in at a perfect part, and quite frankly the arguments I've seen against this inclusion are pretty lame. If you stop taking the title of the piece so literally, and look at is as music, it's a perfect fit.

The Philosopher's Stone only benefits in that it has to create the themes to begin with, and thus would have more than ROTS.

I'm not trying to undercut the other scores in the final 3, I mean, they made it here for a reason. I just feel that Sith gets a bum rap because it's not OT Star Wars, and like you hinted at in your post, some have serious problems of allowing themselves to enjoy additions to that.

All in all, I think Sith has the more thought out music, the best development, and was the greatest challenge to write.

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I doubt he has.

Doubting something would mean that you sat down and thought about it.

You don't strike me as that kind of person.

To quote Agent Smith: "As you know appearences can be deceiving."

I do think what I post (99% of the time). I just thought you might not have heard the unreleased material by now. However I do recall saying that KM owed you for something and that the expanded set for ROTS would suffice but that was after I had posted that. I'm a complicated man a lot of times. 8O

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-The quieter stuff isn't just "filler" like in the others' date=' it's actually interesting and plays a part. For instance, it's not just music for music's sake, like in AOTC, but instead actually improves scenes.[/quote']

Ok i'll go along with that to some extent, the underscore is definatly an improvemnt over the blandness of AOTC.

-You're right about there being only one main theme, but there's a brilliant march for Grievous and the way the old themes are interwoven is perfect.
It's good, but not on the same level as several of the themes for The Philosophers Stone.
It's not just "thrown in there" as some have claimed. The few times the love theme from AOTC has been put in were hugely dramatic moments, and the renditions are perfect.

I've never thought the love theme was all that great.

Even the ESB music came in at a perfect part, and quite frankly the arguments I've seen against this inclusion are pretty lame. If you stop taking the title of the piece so literally, and look at is as music, it's a perfect fit.

I don't care about the title of the piece, that's not what i'm talking about.

I would not have minded it if Williams had re-used music from TESB, if he had done a better job at intergrating it with his new music. Instead of shoehorning 2 completely different kinds of music together, with a minimum attention pay to transitions.

I actually like the new music in that track, but it keeps stopping and switching gear on me.

The Philosopher's Stone only benefits in that it has to create the themes to begin with, and thus would have more than ROTS.

Very true, but out of the plethora of themes Williams had to his disposal, how many did he use in ROTS and how often.

With the exception of the force Theme the use of themes from the original trilogy are minimal.

Even the birth of Darth Vader is underscored with funeral music from TPM.

I'm not trying to undercut the other scores in the final 3, I mean, they made it here for a reason. I just feel that Sith gets a bum rap because it's not OT Star Wars, and like you hinted at in your post, some have serious problems of allowing themselves to enjoy additions to that.

What you Prequel apologists always fail to understand is that people who have certain problems with the Prequels probably didn't set out to hate them.

I for one desperatly tried to like them, but I just can't.

As for the ROTS score, I like it.

But it's by now means better then The Philosophers Stone.

All in all, I think Sith has the more thought out music, the best development, and was the greatest challenge to write.

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At a mimimum, RotS suffers from two things, IMO. 1. The film is still getting made when JW is writing his score and 2. GL has certain, particular ideas about what he wants to appear and this is sometimes related to problem 1.

One concrete example was the funeral music from TPM that plays in RotS, that Stefancos mentioned. When JW was asked about that scene recently he mentioned that the scene came to him late and he very diplomatically suggested he could have done something better if he would have wrote something original. This confirms my original complaint that this was not JW’s first choice. Combination of receiving that portion late into the process and the fact that Lucas suggested the old theme, JW just re-orchestrated a little bit. And being the diplomatic sort, he didn’t disown it but, again, he also suggested he could have done better with something original and such a crucial scene called for something original, IMO, though of course the music didn’t fail - we’re talking a matter of degree here.

I don’t know why TESB was there but it couldn’t have been the best choice for the scene, the changes are jarring as mentioned and its just not something JW normally does. Dule of the Fates is fine but, again, probably not his first choice.

And if we talk about the score as exists in the film, there’s the music taken out where music would have been helpful, bad edits, tracked music, etc. All of these things add up to a less than ideal score though I’m less bothered by the thematic choices JW made given the context and the material he was working with.

- Adam

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Yes I have no trouble believing this.

Williams has rearranged music from his earlier work before and has usually done a much better job at it.

Even the plethora of re-used music in Chamber Of Secrets is intergrated with the new music with much more skill then the lifts from TESB.

So I have no trouble putting the blame squarely with George Lucas. 8O

But it's the end result that ultimatly must count, correct?

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Yes I have no trouble believing this.

Williams has rearranged music from his earlier work before and has usually done a much better job at it.

Even the plethora of re-used music in Chamber Of Secrets is intergrated with the new music with much more skill then the lifts from TESB.

So I have no trouble putting the blame squarely with George Lucas. 8O

But it's the end result that ultimatly must count, correct?

Yeah a score probably ought to be looked at as more of a collaberation, a composer's effort to satisfy the vision of the director. Unfortunately we don't usually know what role the director, temp track, etc. plays so we tend to dump everything on the composer. But in the case of ROTS, there's a much more clear picture as compared to usual so its doesn't require much reading into things to see the obstacles that JW faced on this one.

- Adam

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My top 5 would be:

1. Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban

2. Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

3. A.I. Artificial Intelligence

4. The Terminal

5. Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith

Scores, for me, rank higher if I like more than just the main/concert themes. I can rattle off at least 10 enjoyable cues in Azkaban that I listen to frequently, and is close to a perfect album release (my only quibble is the missing "Rescuing Sirius", and "Mischief Managed!" being primarily cut-and-paste rather than, at least, having different recordings).

Need I elaborate on the good parts of The Philosopher's Stone? Sure the album was a bit of a mess and some lousy stock Williams material made the cut, but I particularly love the cute (but heart-racing!) computer-game-like progression of tracks "Fluffy's Harp" through to "The Face of Voldemort" as Harry faces "levels" and "bosses", so to speak, in a compelling linear order. Succeeded by the goosebumps-inducing Lydian-mode version of Hedwig's theme (which is actually Harry's theme) in "Leaving Hogwarts" and the best concert suite of the century, "Hedwig's Theme," the film and score finish on a rousing note, and so the cleverness of this score is the foreshadowing and progression of the earlier musical elements that allow it to end so magnificently, a strength of Azkaban, also.

A.I. is a unique score: it's actually highly melodic, but is still quite a challenging listen. The way in which this score grows on you is like no other. Give it time, give it patience, and give it love, and it becomes a "real boy" so to speak. Highlights include "The Mecha World" and "Abandoned in the Woods" (already enough material to make any other composer earn an Academy Award, etc), "The Reunion" and "Rouge City" (expanding "Mecha World", with the gorgeous Strauss quote interpolated), Monica's theme in its non-pop guises, and the phantasmal "End Credits" oohing (which is actually a "better" "Patronus Light" really)... among others.

Terminal abounds in jovial, colourful variations on the two main themes and a jauntily irresistable 7/8 rhythm, and is also an excellent album release. This score and Memoirs of a Geisha parallel each other in their through-composed gleams and shimmers of authentic ethnicity, hinged on two primary themes, but the former seems to sustain attention for longer with its superior malleability.

And lastly, Sith features numerous fantastic moments, though the album release is simply not sufficient. "The Boys Continue" and "Yoda's Farewell" at the very least should have appeared, but the Anakin's theme extension of "Anakin's Dream," and more thematic Grievous material, would have strengthened the affair. Nevertheless, the way the score functions in-film is thrilling and contains many long-waited unique variations on the force theme, though not an original composition. "Battle of the Heroes" is, again, thrilling, but the concert arrangement is actually merely a film cue. A better arrangement for the album would have boosted the score tremendously.

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Haven't you compiled your expanded RotS edition by now?That's how you should be judging RotS.For the album release only it would not be in my top 5.

HPSS also has a lot of great unreleased music,making it one of the top 2.It was on TV last night.Several unreleased Hedwig's Theme variation,Ollivander's Wand,Entry into the Great Hall,Mail Arrives,The Nimbus 2000,Practicing Quidditch,Troll in the Bathroom,The Mirror of Erised,Detention and The Forbidden Forest,portions of The Chess Game and The House Cup(the re-recording on CoS is missing the great ending).

K.M.

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My top 5 in no particular order...

A.I. - Artificial Intelligence

Minority Report

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban

The Terminal

Star Wars - Episode III - Revenge of the Sith

I would have included The Patriot, but the 21st Century didn't begin until 2001.

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Haven't you compiled your expanded RotS edition by now?That's how you should be judging RotS.
"Nevertheless,the way the score functions in-film is thrilling and contains many long-waited unique variations on the force theme."

Of course I've compiled a personalised expanded RotS score,and of course I judge it according to its fullest form,which mostly occurs in the film.

But I also judge it by its album release,as that gives us a clearer indication of Williams' true intent for the score,generally prior to any mass edits.And really,apart from a few bonus cues as I mentioned,the expanded score isn't a world apart from the album release.

Bowie-who loves RotS,which made his top five...of twelve(12!)Williams scores.Quite an achievement!

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My very first post.

I have been reading this forum for a long time, but it took some time to join in.

Anyway PS is weakest of these three, actually i think it is weakest of three JW Potter scores.

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ROTS is a fairly average score for a very troubled film.

As film scores go, I'd say it was excellent, but was merely "average" as Williams scores go. Is that what you meant?

Anyways, it's time to vote off your LEAST FAVOURITE of the final two.

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