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Across the Stars is...


Obi-Wan Kenobi
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Leia's theme, Luke's theme, and Vader's theme all put together. Listen, the group of triplets played by the harp it's the same kind of triplets played in that different part of leia's theme. The first three notes is the end of the first part of Vader's theme. and the next triplets and 2 quaters notes are the main theme, the last part of the first part. I'm sorry this is very hard to explain, someone tell me if they know what I mean.

(By the way I DID copy this from my theforce.net post, and yes I am Darth_Potter I brought it here because everyone there is a fool and opinions don't matter it seems so tell me what you think about this.)

:)

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I really hate ATS. How nobody else seems to see that it is using one of of the pirates themes from Hook, I'll never know.

The only good parts IMO of the AoTC score are the parts with old themes- Luke's theme, Duel of the Fates, The Droid invasion and, of course, the Imperial March, and part of the arena track.

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I really hate ATS. How nobody else seems to see that it is using one of of the pirates themes from Hook, I'll never know.

 The only good parts IMO of the AoTC score are the parts with old themes- Luke's theme, Duel of the Fates, The Droid invasion and, of course, the Imperial March, and part of the arena track.

Luke's theme?

Stefancos- who likes ATS.

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Luke's theme?

Stefancos- who likes ATS.

When it's played for 4 seconds right before Duel of The Fates, to symbolise Luke's future home.

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Leia's theme, Luke's theme, and Vader's theme all put together. Listen, the group of triplets played by the harp it's the same kind of triplets played in that different part of leia's theme.

No. The triplets in Across the Stars is chordal, and usually has intervals of a 3rd between notes, whereas in Princess Leia, the triplets you refer to are stepwise, and have intervals of a 2nd between successive notes.

Perhaps you could explain the other correlations better, because I don't quite understand what you're comparing what to. Just make it a little clearer, that's all.

Stefancos hates me. He should get rid of my stupid quote or I will leave the board (sorry Rén).

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I do not hate you, I actually think you are pretty funny.

That is why I used that quote.

But if you are against it then i'll look for a new one.

You could have off course asked me about it, before threatening to leave the MB.

Stefancos- :|

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Also I have you know that if I hate someone then i'll usually make that very clear.

Right now I do not hate anyone here, even arrogant, self-absorbed elitists like figo.

Stop trying to be a victim and act your age.

Stefancos- :|

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Just listen to the first 8 oboe notes. The first three is the imperial march, just make those faster (dotted quarter, eighth, and quarter) and the rest are the main theme (which was also luke's theme and is soposed to be, that's why it's rarely in the new movies and only is ever there to remind you IT'S STAR WARS) All that stuff is just different notes but the same rythm. If i could record little parts from it i would compaire it. :?

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I really hate ATS. How nobody else seems to see that it is using one of of the pirates themes from Hook, I'll never know.

I got Hook after I got AOTC and I did see that connection. It just seems that nobody here wants to hear about that kind of stuff.

Also did anyone recognize the first 6 notes of the Scindlers List theme to be part of the Harry Potter theme?

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Just listen to the first 8 oboe notes.  The first three is the imperial march, just make those faster (dotted quarter, eighth, and quarter) and the rest are the main theme (which was also luke's theme and is soposed to be, that's why it's rarely in the new movies and only is ever there to remind you IT'S STAR WARS)  All that stuff is just different notes but the same rythm.  If i could record little parts from it i would compaire it.  :?

Comparing the first 3 notes of the theme with the Imperial March, I note this:

In ATS, the intervals (A - D - F) are minor 6th and minor 3rd.

In Imperial March, the intervals at the end of the theme (Eb - Bb - G) are

perfect 5th, minor 3rd.

Granted that some people may say they sound similar, they are different. However, we can say that while they are not EXACT, we can say that the relation is thus: that ATS uses an interval expansion (in the minor mode) of part of the Imperial march theme. So are they related? Yes. Are they the same? No. Was it intended? Who knows. Here are some similar ATS relations:

NBC Station ID (not by Williams, just the 3 note motif) (G - E - C) is a major 6th and a major 3rd. ATS just a minor mode version of NBC? LOL

Han & Leia (G - E - D) is a major 6th and a major 2nd.

Princess Leia (A - F# - G) is a major 6th and a major 2nd - exactly the same intervals as Han & Leia, but with the last interval going up in Leia and down in Han & Leia.

What's the point? I think that the interval of a 6th is important to the overall structure of ALL Star Wars music, perhaps either representing love or the female Skywalkers (I don't know Shmi's theme, so any help there would be great in proving or disproving that theory).

Also, looking at the RHYTHM of the rest of the theme, we see it is an irregular diminution of Luke's theme (in Luke's theme we have 3 triplet-8ths/quavers, a half note/minim, and a quarter note/crochet. In ATS, starting with the 4th note of the theme, we have 3 triplet-8ths, quarter, quarter. Thus, only the half note was diminished, hence the term irregular diminution).

So what does this all mean? Here's my theory, and while it may not even be accurate or even intended by JW, it does seem to make sense. We have elements of both Leia's and Luke's themes in ATS. Could this then be musical foreshadowing (if we saw the films in order of I through VI, rather than starting with IV)? The only flaw in this theory musically is the theme Luke and Leia, which does not at all relate to any of these other themes, either rhythmically or melodically. It's just a theory, and probably is just a big coincidence, but I think it's interesting nonetheless :|

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No, and none of us will know unless we speak to Williams directly. However, there is a large body of evidence to support the theory that he did purposely use parts of other themes. The only real doubt is whether it was conscious or unconscious. But the elements are there.

I think that the most important clue is the intervals itself, and I believe that Williams has purposely created his themes with certain intervals in mind. But thats a seperate discussion altogether.

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It's not a stretch -- comparing the first 14 notes of the Hook Prologue theme and the Across the Stars theme, there is a 12 out of 14 match. Even the rhythms are very similar down to the triplets on notes 4-6 and 9-11 in both themes. Sorry for the slightly technical analysis, but there it is. And I am not bothered by the fact Williams recycles either. Although this is more like reusing than recycling.

Otherwise, I also think it's mostly a waste of time to try to look at these themes as if Williams precisely cut, copied and pasted them one from another in some constructionist way. My impression is that he doesn't compose that way (yes, I have met and spoken to him).

I was amused and wowed, however, that someone found such close resemblance between the Augie's Band theme from TPM and Palpatine's theme (Ricard could recall the post, I would think).

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Yes, Augie and the Emperor's theme are essentially just modal transpositions of one another.

Why is it called Augie by the way??? :|

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I've manages to stay clear of Hook, so I don't know about this much-fabled complete rip-off --- but I certainly think JW knew what he was doing in referencing ATS to Luke ad Leia (and Vador of course). Luke is pretty straight forward - he shows how the 2 are related right at the end of the end credits. Leia's theme is perhaps not so obvious though I suppose you could say the first 5 notes are pretty much the same, allowing for the minor differences - there are other melodic connections I'm sure - but try listening for a harmonic relationship in the second section of ATS..

Personally, I think Williams *always* knows what he's doing - and that ATS is a combination of Luke and Leia, in a minor context - except that they haven't happened yet! Not sure any1 else could've pulled off such a feat...

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No, I don't even know what you are hearing. But I can tell you this: rhythm alone is not enough to support a theory that a relationship between two pieces of music exists. Now if rhythm AND harmony or melody were similar, then I most certainly would agree with you. My theory shows a relationship between rhythm and melody among various SW pieces.

It's that my theory is any more right than your theory or vice versa, but rather that I simply have more data.

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Sure it can. Rhythmic motifs can exist in tons of pieces by any composer to link them together. Like Beethoven's 5th, for example...it's in cyclic form, and it's sort of interconnected by many different things, including that famous triplet-firmata theme from the beginning. You know, Beethoven called it "fate knocking at the door." LOL

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Yes, rhythmic motifs can and do exist, even in Star Wars.

I wrote that statement wrong, and you read it as I wrote it, not as I meant it. I meant to say that rhythm is USUALLY not enough to relate two DIFFERENT pieces of music. But, seeing as Star Wars is a whole, this statement doesn't apply.

I think what I really want to say is that I think there is more to ATS than just rhythm. Any opinions?

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Which tracks in Hook sound like Across the Stars?

:) Sail Barge Assult (Alternate)

Nick, your signature is overbearing don't you think? How large do you need to be to get attention? :)

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It's obvious that a part of the main theme (Luke's theme) is in Across the Stars. It's also somehwat obvious that the tonality of the theme is based on Leia's theme. It's obvious foreshadowing: Luke and Leia (and their themes) are to be the offspring of the lovers (and their theme).

I thought it was a very interesting development of a theme, very much like Anakin's theme.

As far as it sounding like something else...I think you're going to find that pretty much all music sounds like something else. As I have said before, I'm no musicologist, but I believe there comes a point when some musical rhythms and notes are bound to be repeated. Some composers are more obvious and blatant than others (they actually plagarize either themselves or others), while others tip their hats.

I don't see people yelling about the fact that the opening of Star Wars (when the ships are going over the screen) is a direct "homage" to "Mars, the Bringer of War." Or maybe I was absent the day that was discussed.

Jeff -- who thinks Across the Stars redeems the wallpaper feel of most of the AOTC score and that hack job near the end.

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It's obvious that a part of the main theme (Luke's theme) is in Across the Stars. It's also somehwat obvious that the tonality of the theme is based on Leia's theme. It's obvious foreshadowing: Luke and Leia (and their themes) are to be the offspring of the lovers (and their theme).

How can you say that the tonality of ATS is based on Leia's theme? ATS is mostly in a minor mode, while Leia is in major. Also, ATS modulates its tonality WITHIN the theme, whereas Leia does not.

I don't see people yelling about the fact that the opening of Star Wars (when the ships are going over the screen) is a direct "homage" to "Mars, the Bringer of War." Or maybe I was absent the day that was discussed.

I don't see this as an hommage to Holst, but rather as either quotation (if you're an optimist) or plagiarism (if you're a pessimist). Mars was part of the temp track used for Ep IV, and since Lucas enjoyed it so much, Williams probably just reworked it to ensure Lucas's approval.

However, this is an interesting hommage in Luke and Leia...

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Yes, the rhythmic similarities between Luke's theme/Main theme and ATS are there, but the melodic-shape and harmonic differences really make these two themes distant genetic cousins. Never mind that Luke's theme stays in one meter unlike ATS which changes time signatures.

You could make a greater case for the the relation between the SW theme and the Men of the Yorktown March from Midway, written the year before it. Check it out sometime, I believe that march contains prototypical melodical material for Luke's theme, the Throne Room theme, the Superman March and the Leaving Home theme from Superman in varying degrees. (hmm, new post idea, there...)

I have my own perhaps obvious theory about ATS, perhaps I will make a new post on it later today.

Boy, you folks do get the JW brain-juices goin'!

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Yes, the rhythmic similarities between Luke's theme/Main theme and ATS are there, but the melodic-shape and harmonic differences really make these two themes distant genetic cousins. Never mind that Luke's theme stays in one meter unlike ATS which changes time signatures.

All of which is true, but I still say there is melodic CONTENT similarities between ATS and other SW themes. The only similarity it share's with Luke's theme is the irregular diminution of the rhythm, which I think cannot simply be brushed aside. It is not a similarity, but rather a transformation of the rhythmic content of Luke's theme into ATS. The two themes are related, whether by coincidence or not, I don't know. And while they are not very closely related, I do not think that they are distant either.

Perhaps I should include sheet music diagrams to help with the explanation, as soon as someone shows me how to do that like others on this board have.

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How can you say that the tonality of ATS is based on Leia's theme? ATS is mostly in a minor mode, while Leia is in major. Also, ATS modulates its tonality WITHIN the theme, whereas Leia does not.

I have no idea what you're talking about...which is why I'll just keep my mouth shut.

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Forget a separate post, here's my idea of what ATS is essentially about (and I don't mean to invalidate your ideas, jsawruk, this is simply IMO).

Across the Stars is a tribute to Nino Rota, specifically his "Love Theme from Romeo and Juliet" (dir. Franco Zeffirelli, 1968). OK, this may seem too obvious to some people; it was the first thing that struck me when I heard ATS. Since then and more recently with this thread, I have come to think that more strongly. Perhaps there are other love themes from classic cinema which also fueled JW's inspiration, perhaps he was just working from an archetype of love music which incorporates famous melodies like Rota's. But when I heard ATS, I immediately thought, "Rota." Well, actually I immediately thought, "Hook," but I have already elaborated above.

Here are the main characteristics which ATS and R&J share (warning, technical stuff follows):

1. natural minor mode -- not that common for a cinematic love theme

2. 3/4 (waltz) time -- although ATS includes some 4/4 or 2/4 (I don't have the sheet music to confirm), it stays mostly in 3/4 time.

3. the initial 3-4 notes outline a minor triad in third inversion

4. the harmony cadences early in the theme from the sixth degree to the third (briefly but significantly in R&J)

5. the first part of the melody ends on the dominant note, at the lower end of the melodic range, setting up for a altered repetition of this phrase which sees the harmony (only part of the time in ATS) cadence on the dominant (minor in R&J, major in ATS)

6. the harmony incorporates a triad on the flatted 2nd (neapolitan) degree.

7. both themes symbolize a tragic romance between doomed lovers -- and thus they similarly capture a brooding but effusive, tender feeling

I am sure there are more. It has been some years since I heard the R&J theme in any of its guises, but it was so popular when I was a kid (early 70's) I can hardly forget it. I should probably seek it out for a reacquaintance.

So what do you think, am I way off or stating something obvious or already discussed before I joined the MB?

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3. the initial 3-4 notes outline a minor triad in third inversion

4. the harmony cadences early in the theme from the sixth degree to the third (briefly but significantly in R&J)

You're thoughts are interesting and do not conflict nor contradict mine: the only difference is you are looking for outside influence while I am looking for internal consistency.

Where in ATS is there a VI - iii cadence? (Not saying you're wrong, just saying I want to know where it is because I don't remember it)

Also, for a minor triad, there is no such thing as third inversion. Do you mean second inversion (6/4)? Third inversion only occurs when you have 4 or more 3rds stacked in a chord, like seventh chords whose third inversion symbol is 4/2. Just a little confused. I think you mean second inversion because the first three notes of ATS are in second inversion.

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It's a conspiracy, they are trying to make you think that you are dumb.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel dumb. Please, if you don't understand something, let me know and I will try to explain it better. I'm sorry that I am a music major and composer. Do you want me not to use the knowledge that I have spend years acquiring through studies?

I thought this was a music forum where we could discuss music. Am I not discussing music?

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

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I'm not trying to make anyone feel dumb. Please, if you don't understand something, let me know and I will try to explain it better. I'm sorry that I am a music major and composer. Do you want me not to use the knowledge that I have spend years acquiring through studies?

I thought this was a music forum where we could discuss music. Am I not discussing music?

I don't think you are trying to make anyone feel dumb, from what it appears, you do tend to like to show off your musical knowledge. Your next sentences proves that very well. "I am sorry that I am a music major and composer. Do you want me not to use the knowledge that I have spend years acquiring through studies? I thought this was a music forum where we could discuss music. Am I not discussing music?"

The tones of these words sound rather arrogant. Forgive for saying that, but it really does sound like that.

Your intent seems to say, "I know a lot about music from years of studies, so I am not able to use it on you, who have not studied and don't know as much as me??"

Firstly, somehow I don't believe that you are sorry that you are a music major and "composer".

Knowing music and being able to compose something that's great from your knowledge are 2 different things. That's why music professors just complain about how bad the people in the industry are with their musical output. Well, it's true, they're so bad that they're successfully making a good living out of it. And I am not saying popularity means quality, but I am also saying that their complaints are just due to plain jealousy.

I think some people may resent your comments here because of your supposed musical education. I don't know how you missed that this forum is not a musical forum where you can discuss technical aspects of music composition, plus, it's most certainly not to compete with whatever musical education you may have. Last time I checked, the address of this site is still, JWFan.net. So, through scientific and government intelligence sources, I was advised that this is a fan site for Williams' fans.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, there are people here who contribute with a musical background, but that's not the purpose of this site. Ricard, tell me if I'm disillusioned and totally wrong???

So, I don't know why it is that you enjoy discussing technical aspects of music on a forum that's mostly for fans of the composer, who are mostly listeners and collectors.

You know, they don't care what you know, but they do care if you have the totally complete 4 CD album release of Superman-the movie, which includes all the recording sesssions.

I have seen your posts where your comments are so technical that, only the very few would understand. Who cares what you know. If you know so much compose for a movie where they can hear your work and you'll gain their respect from that.

Music is a practical skill. Knowing music means nothing, but to be teachers in schools. But, putting what you know in a format where the layman can judge, then, and only then your knowledge means something to others.

I don't know if anyone here are impressed by your composition. If so, that's great.

I am not moderating your posting of your musical knowledge here, and your certainly welcome to continue if that's what's important to you.

So, I am just making commentaries here, help you, not go against you. If MANY people are indicating that they don't like your comments, read into it, and don't push your superior knowledge even harder by saying, " Do you want me not to use the knowledge that I have spend years acquiring through studies?"

But then again, you don't have to take a grain of my commentaries here.

As for me, I think you have been successfully trained by your teachers to be cerebral with your perceptions of music, and we all know that cerebral music only leads to nothing more than music teachers.

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OK here I go again...

Anyone that doesn't hear Hook in across the stars has to go have their ears checked. I have both scores now and the notes, intervals and the whole basic structure are the same...... Not that I don;'t like either of them, I do, very much, but there's no denying that theya re the same. The first time I heard ATS I was like, Hold on a sec.... That's Hook!

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3. the initial 3-4 notes outline a minor triad in third inversion

4. the harmony cadences early in the theme from the sixth degree to the third (briefly but significantly in R&J)

You're thoughts are interesting and do not conflict nor contradict mine: the only difference is you are looking for outside influence while I am looking for internal consistency.

Where in ATS is there a VI - iii cadence? (Not saying you're wrong, just saying I want to know where it is because I don't remember it)

Also, for a minor triad, there is no such thing as third inversion. Do you mean second inversion (6/4)? Third inversion only occurs when you have 4 or more 3rds stacked in a chord, like seventh chords whose third inversion symbol is 4/2. Just a little confused. I think you mean second inversion because the first three notes of ATS are in second inversion.

Technical reply (anyone who isn't interested, there is plenty of non-technical content on the MB to enjoy -- like 99% of these threads.):

Sorry, j, I was confusing "position" and "inversion." I meant third position or second inversion or six-four.

There is a brief VI-III cadence (which doesn't linger) at the end of the "Hook" phrase. The bass follows VI - v - III (then moves to V to repeat the phrase). It gives the feeling of a short rest in the relative major.

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The tones of these words sound rather arrogant. Forgive for saying that, but it really does sound like that.

The tone was not meant to arrogant, but rather think that I am crying :cry:

Knowing music and being able to compose something that's great from your knowledge are 2 different things.

I beg to differ. You must know music before you can compose music, regardless of what music you compose. Why? 2 reasons: first so that you know what an audience enjoys, which is why Mozart + Beethoven are so often studied because their music appeals to extremely large audiences, with Beethoven perhaps being the most popular composer of all time (don't quote me on that, but I'd say that that is close to truth). Also, you need to know music so that you don't duplicate what someone else has already done, or the opposite... duplicate what someone else already did as an hommage to them. With this knowledge of music, you can start to compose. However, as much as you would like to, you cannot know ALL music. I'm trying to, and music is just so vast that it's impossible.

I think some people may resent your comments here because of your supposed musical education.

I don't see why you say supposed musical education... I've only been studying music for the past 12 yrs, and I currently attend one of the best music colleges in the Northeast (and no, not Julliard...).

So, I don't know why it is that you enjoy discussing technical aspects of music on a forum that's mostly for fans of the composer, who are mostly listeners and collectors.

I enjoy discussing technical aspects because I feel that it is essential to full appreciation of the music.

I have seen your posts where your comments are so technical that, only the very few would understand. Who cares what you know. If you know so much compose for a movie where they can hear your work and you'll gain their respect from that.

My technical comments are directed at those very few. And as always, you could ask me for a clarification rather than constantly badger me over how technical I am. As for composing movies, I'll hopefully be starting that within the next 2 yrs or so.

Music is a practical skill. Knowing music means nothing, but to be teachers in schools. But, putting what you know in a format where the layman can judge, then, and only then your knowledge means something to others.

Try telling that to any composer or musicologist. As for putting my music into a format that you can listen to, I already made the offer about my new CD, and yet only a couple of people even dare say they want a copy.

I don't know if anyone here are impressed by your composition. If so, that's great.

Well, I can name at least 4: ocelot, ren, morn, and tpigeon, all of whom like my music a lot. But what do they matter? It's the various producers, directors, and even Sonic Foundry and Universal (the record label in America, not the sheet music publishers in Austria :mrgreen: ) who are interested in my music... that's what's important.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

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There is a brief VI-III cadence (which doesn't linger) at the end of the "Hook" phrase. The bass follows VI - v - III (then moves to V to repeat the phrase). It gives the feeling of a short rest in the relative major.

Hmm, while it could be analysed as a VI-III cadence, that cadence seems unusual. I would rather analyse it as a mode mixture with the relative major and thus it would be a IV - I plagal cadence, a much more typical device. But that's just my opinion.

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I beg to differ. You must know music before you can compose music, regardless of what music you compose. Why? 2 reasons: first so that you know what an audience enjoys, which is why Mozart + Beethoven are so often studied because their music appeals to extremely large audiences, with Beethoven perhaps being the most popular composer of all time (don't quote me on that, but I'd say that that is close to truth). Also, you need to know music so that you don't duplicate what someone else has already done, or the opposite... duplicate what someone else already did as an hommage to them. With this knowledge of music, you can start to compose. However, as much as you would like to, you cannot know ALL music. I'm trying to, and music is just so vast that it's impossible.

First of all, thanks for not taking offence, because it was not meant to.

Well, none of the Beatles were able to read music. Neither the Bee Gees. Irving Berlin, can't read music. Elfman, was self-taught, came from a rock background, and at first didn't know how to write for anything that's outside of his band, let alone for full orchestra. Andre Previn started composing for Hollywood at 16 years old. He didn't have much training in music prior to that. Hans Zimmer was self-taught.

Berlioz, Elgar, Debussy, Wagner, Delius, Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky, Borodin were mostly self-taught. There are other examples such as Chopin. Even Beethoven, besides some composition lessons here and there, which was very minimal, he was pretty much self-taught.

Most of the people in the music industry are self-taught. The people who are musically educated serve the ones that have already made it out there.

So, it would not be correct that by studying music helps to not duplicate what others have done. In fact, it's the ones that were mostly self-taught that broke with traditions and branched out to create a new voice. Furthermore, very composer at one time or another, whether they were formally tutored or not, duplicated their chosen mentors. Any arts have mentors. Even Mozart was influenced by Haydn, and the elderly Haydn was influenced by his young padawan. Name a composer, and you can trace their chosen musical lineage.

Perhaps you yourself know others who were self-taught.

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