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Across the Stars is...


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Across the Stars is a tribute to Nino Rota, specifically his "Love Theme from Romeo and Juliet" (dir. Franco Zeffirelli, 1968). OK, this may seem too obvious to some people; it was the first thing that struck me when I heard ATS. Since then and more recently with this thread, I have come to think that more strongly. Perhaps there are other love themes from classic cinema which also fueled JW's inspiration, perhaps he was just working from an archetype of love music which incorporates famous melodies like Rota's. But when I heard ATS, I immediately thought, "Rota." Well, actually I immediately thought, "Hook," but I have already elaborated above.

Could also make a very good case for similarities to El Cid. And Spartacus too.

Knowing music and being able to compose something that's great from your knowledge are 2 different things. That's why music professors just complain about how bad the people in the industry are with their musical output. Well, it's true, they're so bad that they're successfully making a good living out of it. And I am not saying popularity means quality, but I am also saying that their complaints are just due to plain jealousy.

:nono: And you say jsawruk is arrogant... I'd say their complaints are due to their form of music appreciation.

I don't know how you missed that this forum is not a musical forum where you can discuss technical aspects of music composition, plus, it's most certainly not to compete with whatever musical education you may have

To quote Ricard the forum is "about film music in general". But it's focused on Williams. This implies that it covers the technical aspects of it as well.

So, I don't know why it is that you enjoy discussing technical aspects of music on a forum that's mostly for fans of the composer, who are mostly listeners and collectors.

I wish he'd do more of it, I find him rather educational.

You know, they don't care what you know, but they do care if you have the totally complete 4 CD album release of Superman-the movie, which includes all the recording sesssions.

More examples of your arrogance.

Music is a practical skill. Knowing music means nothing, but to be teachers in schools. But, putting what you know in a format where the layman can judge, then, and only then your knowledge means something to others.

Knowing music equals better music when put together with talent. Knowing music adds to your practical skills. But it does not mean that you won't repeat others music.

I don't know if anyone here are impressed by your composition. If so, that's great.

I even like his 12 tone stuff.

Anyone that doesn't hear Hook in across the stars has to go have their ears checked. I have both scores now and the notes, intervals and the whole basic structure are the same...... Not that I don;'t like either of them, I do, very much, but there's no denying that theya re the same. The first time I heard ATS I was like, Hold on a sec.... That's Hook!

Except Hook is much better.

Elfman, was self-taught, came from a rock background, and at first didn't know how to write for anything that's outside of his band, let alone for full orchestra.

I think he has more self-teaching to do 8O The best composers who taught themselves, did a really good job of that :( Plus it probably allowed them to invent their own style rather than learning styles. And Schoenberg was mostly self-taught :)

Even Mozart was influenced by Haydn, and the elderly Haydn was influenced by his young padawan.

Heh, they sound almost the same. Even some of the most original composers like Stravinsky have roots, in his case, Rimsky Korsakov.

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Perhaps you yourself know others who were self-taught.

I was totally self-taught until last year, and I still teach myself beyond the scope of my music classes. They don't teach us Beatles in music theory, yet I study it anyway. (By the way, I know Paul and Ringo can't read music, but I thought John and George could. Any proof that they couldn't?)

There have been those who were not self-taught and who have been great as well, such as JW, Mozart, and countless others. And of the self-taught ones you mentioned, the best example was Mussorgsky. I believe that, out of all the ones you mentioned, he had the least amount of musical training.

I think we are getting confused here. I think you mean that you need to study COMPOSITION to compose. But that's not what I said, rather that you needed to study MUSIC to compose. Surely all of the people you mentioned were at least taught a musical instrument, right? For some, including myself, that was all I needed to start composing.

Show me a good composer with NO musical training in any shape or form.

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Hmm, while it could be analysed as a VI-III cadence, that cadence seems unusual. I would rather analyse it as a mode mixture with the relative major and thus it would be a IV - I plagal cadence, a much more typical device. But that's just my opinion.

Quite right, J! I was just taking a shortcut.

All of this animosity towards us noteheads! I don't think our technical discussions are meant to replace the purely aesthetic ones, as if they could, it's merely another way to get inside the music.

However, I don't think reading music makes one musically literate. The ears are the more important tool in music, not the eyes. Playing by ear is a more much valuable skill than playing from sheet music. A good music fan/musician has to naturally hear the various sonic structures and relationships in order to enjoy them (without conscious analysis), and I would say that most or all of us are here because we can do that with JW. Some people are fond of verbalizing those relationships, nothing wrong with that. It doesn't take away the soul of the music any more than a photograph takes away the soul of its subject!

Morn: El Cid, Spartacus -- by Khachaturian (sp) or North? Need to hear those...

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Well said. Ear is a much better tool than the eye. I, however, still need to develop my relative pitch into perfect pitch, but my relative pitch is quite good.

I like looking at and reading music though. It just adds to my learning and listening. But is it necessary to read music? No way. Look at Paul McCartney; he still can't read music. ;)

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I think we are getting confused here. I think you mean that you need to study COMPOSITION to compose. But that's not what I said, rather that you needed to study MUSIC to compose. Surely all of the people you mentioned were at least taught a musical instrument, right? For some, including myself, that was all I needed to start composing.

Show me a good composer with NO musical training in any shape or form.

I'm sorry, but studying composition IS studying music. I don't know how a college student would take a comment such as this, "Oh, you mean you're studying composition, I thought you said you are studying music".

Also, is studying painting also mean you're studying art?

Berlioz could barely play the guitar and flute, Wagner barely manages to play the piano.

What do you mean good composer with NO musical training? You mean, formal musical training or any training, even self-training?

Well, in that case, show me a good driver without ever having driven before, or any good gymnast that had never taken gymnastics, or any good ice-skater, good car racer, good cook without having learnt to cook anything before, show me any artisan that have never learnt their craft, from self or others, etc.

What I am saying is that, you don't have to go to school to be knowledgeable or experts in music, or any field. Rather, your comments that you study so you won't duplicate is even incorrect, because we know, the ones that are most innovative and original are the ones that are not taught by the establishments. It's because they're not taught what's right or what's wrong that they come out to be original sounding. Why do you think that is?

Time and time again, the establishments have to revise their rule book, when a composer brakes them to pieces with amazing results. Wagner's Tristan & Isolde, shredded the establishment's rule of modulation. His ideas of harmony, orchestration from Tristan and The Ring, was so powerful, music history changed permanently, that henceforth, the entire world changed it's voice. My point is that Wagner taught the establishments, not the establishments taught Wagner.

Bernstein has said, he never took formal composing education. There are too many examples that are similar to Bernstein. Of course, I am not suggesting that a musical education is a waste of time. Just suggesting that it's not the ultimate weapon to greatness.

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The best composers who taught themselves, did a really good job of that :) Plus it probably allowed them to invent their own style rather than learning styles.

Absolutely right!

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I'm sorry, but studying composition IS studying music. I don't know how a college student would take a comment such as this, "Oh, you mean you're studying composition, I thought you said you are studying music".

No, you misinterpreted me again. Composition is a subset of musical study. While a study of music in some shape or form is required to compose, you need not study composition in order to compose, but it surely does help.

If I study just painting, then why can't I go off to be a sculptur? It's the same with music. If I just study flute, then surely I can be a great conductor (although orchestration does require knowledge of orchestration).

I know that I could not break any rules until I knew them. Only after I learned of Stockhausen, Cage and Bussotti did I write Gesundheit, etc. Surely the same is true of the other composers, whether they learned them formally or not, they learned of others and thus accepted or rejected the compositions of those other composers and wrote accordingly.

On a side note, most composition majors I know can't write for beans, and of the two best composers I know personally, one was a composition major, the other was a photography major. Also, Schumann was educated in Law before he ever seriously studied music. Even I didn't formally study music until recently, but that little bit of education has helped me tremendously in all my musical pursuits and has even given me an advantage from time to time. :)

Me - trying to justify my degree in music, but I think the job I'm apply to tomorrow (and should get) greatly justifies it.

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Across the Stars is... probably the worst love theme in the Williams canon.

OH King Mark is gonna be feeling the HATE being poured on by late evening for this! :(

Anyway its not his best love theme. Maybe it is his weakest, but that still means its very good nontheless. :angry:

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And what did you notice about it?

This:

Leia's theme, Luke's theme, and Vader's theme all put together. Listen, the group of triplets played by the harp it's the same kind of triplets played in that different part of leia's theme. The first three notes is the end of the first part of Vader's theme. and the next triplets and 2 quaters notes are the main theme, the last part of the first part. I'm sorry this is very hard to explain, someone tell me if they know what I mean.  

(By the way I DID copy this from my theforce.net post, and yes I am Darth_Potter I brought it here because everyone there is a fool and opinions don't matter it seems so tell me what you think about this.)

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Leia's theme, Luke's theme, and Vader's theme all put together. Listen, the group of triplets played by the harp it's the same kind of triplets played in that different part of leia's theme. The first three notes is the end of the first part of Vader's theme. and the next triplets and 2 quaters notes are the main theme, the last part of the first part. I'm sorry this is very hard to explain, someone tell me if they know what I mean.  

Um, I thought I already answered this: that it was similar intervally to Leia, a rhythmic diminution of Luke, and I couldn't find the relation to Vader. However, what I found related to Leia are different from what you found related to Leia.

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