So wait....Vangelis can't read music?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

He has no music reading/writing skills? That's what I just read...on IMDb. I can't believe I've lived in ignorance of that fact for the past decade.

That's odd, and also impressive, considering he's put out some great stuff....(Chariots of Fire, Conquest of Paradise [my favorite theme of all time...right there...especially as performed in Summon the Heroes], Bladerunner).

So I would assume he...improvises the music for film? Anyone know how his approach to scoring goes?

Discuss!

[ashinyobject 0]

He has no music reading/writing skills?  That's what I just read...on IMDb.  I can't believe I've lived in ignorance of that fact for the past decade.  

That's odd, and also impressive, considering he's put out some great stuff....(Chariots of Fire, Conquest of Paradise [my favorite theme of all time...right there...especially as performed in Summon the Heroes], Bladerunner).

So I would assume he...improvises the music for film?  Anyone know how his approach to scoring goes?  

Discuss!

why do you trust IMDb?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I don't...that's why I'm asking here...

[ashinyobject 0]

I don't...that's why I'm asking here...

sorry, i'm not edumacated enough to answer.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Well since his scores and studio albums are generally all performed from the keyboard the ability to notate the music seems irrelevent. However I find it hard to believe that he can't read music. I'm not sure that's entirely true.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Danny Elfman can't either. Or Mel Brooks.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Danny Elfman can't either.

I've heard otherwise.

[GoodMusician 56]

I thought Danny just didn't go to college for music comp. Then again , he was in a band for many years... Ooinga Boinga was it?

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I still don't believe it. Anyone can learn to read music in a week or two. It's really quite simple. The higher the note on the staff, the higher it sounds. That's how to read pitch. Left to right on the staff, that's how to read rhythm. Once you grasp those simple basics the rest is just practice and fine tuning. I have 4 year old violin students who can read music after a couple of lessons.

[Incanus 5,713]

I still don't believe it. Anyone can learn to read music in a week or two. It's really quite simple. The higher the note on the staff, the higher it sounds. That's how to read pitch. Left to right on the staff, that's how to read rhythm. Once you grasp those simple basics the rest is just practice and fine tuning. I have 4 year old violin students who can read music after a couple of lessons.

Wow perhaps I should take those violin lessons. I could finally read music It's about time I learned it.

[GoodMusician 56]

well, there are sublte nuances like key's and clefs and such.

And then you have percussion.

Though I admit, really, once you know the basics of music, it's pretty much universal with each instrument...

Maybe he just feels restrained by it? I know there are times where I'd rather perform something than type it in Finale ...grrrr

[Incanus 5,713]

I also have heard Vangelis can't read music but whether this is true I cannot say. He can't orchestrate that much is certain. He had to leave that job to other people in Alexander since he had not done any orchestration for symphony orchestra. And I have heard from my friend who is a big Vangelis fan that the man has no formal musical education and prefers to use his key boards and improvise to get the feeling of the scene rather than to write the music. That of course does not prove he can't read music but it tells about his preferences.

This is from one Vangelis fan page:

The musical talents of Vangelis first became obvious at the age of four. His parents tried to encourage him to study with a professional teacher, but he did not respond well to formal education as he was generally unwilling to follow instructions.

Vangelis explains, "I have always felt that you should not borrow knowledge from others, because personal experience and development are of utmost significance."

[deimos 0]

I still don't believe it. Anyone can learn to read music in a week or two. It's really quite simple. The higher the note on the staff, the higher it sounds. That's how to read pitch. Left to right on the staff, that's how to read rhythm. Once you grasp those simple basics the rest is just practice and fine tuning. I have 4 year old violin students who can read music after a couple of lessons.

Wow perhaps I should take those violin lessons. I could finally read music It's about time I learned it.

Same here

[Salacius 7]

The musical talents of Vangelis first became obvious at the age of four. His parents tried to encourage him to study with a professional teacher, but he did not respond well to formal education as he was generally unwilling to follow instructions.

Vangelis explains, "I have always felt that you should not borrow knowledge from others, because personal experience and development are of utmost significance."

Give us a break Vangelis!!

Talent is the necessary ingredient to creativity, but raw talent won't do. It has to be nurtured and developed.

Unfortunately Vangelis comes from an era in Greece where a lot of composers were just self-proclaimed geniuses.

Can't believe people have taken him seriously

[Incanus 5,713]

I found his comment rather pompous and silly really.

[A24 4,326]

It's what he says in interviews. He doesn't want to know or learn how to read or write music. He believes it gives him a different approach to composing (more intuitive and on a purely emotional base, or something like that). Paul McCartney also wrote many a classic popsongs and he couldn't read music either. It's perfectly possible as long as you don't write complex music for orchestra, I guess. In fact, some of these "non-trained" write better than academics like Philip Glass (IMO).

Alex

[Greg1138 3]

I don't think Paul McCartney can read or write music either - I've heard that several times....

[Salacius 7]

It's what he says in interviews. He doesn't want to know or learn how to read or write music. He believes it gives him a different approach to composing (more intuitive and on a purely emotional base, or something like that). Paul McCartney also wrote many a classic popsongs and he couldn't read music either. It's perfectly possible as long as you don't write complex music for orchestra, I guess. In fact, some of these "non-trained" write better than academics like Philip Glass (IMO).

Alex

OK here is the thing,

First of all Paul Mc Cartney: , :micro: (just my opinion)

Writing for a band doesn't really requires you to have vast knowledge of harmony , composition and orchestration. If you can strum a guitar and play a few chords you can write a song (providing you've got the talent)

Writing for a hundred piece orchestra? different thing

Sure you can get an orchestrator but if you don't know what you are doing you will hit a limit sooner or later.

[A24 4,326]

Writing for a band doesn't really requires you to have vast knowledge of harmony , composition and orchestration. If you can strum a guitar and play a few chords you can write a song (providing you've got the talent)

Writing for a hundred piece orchestra? different thing

Sure you can get an orchestrator but if you don't know what you are doing you will hit a limit sooner or later.

I think you are ripe for one of those classical boards for elitists that piss on John Williams. Somehow you are getting very close to their level. No, you are worse than them. Classical elitists can appreciate McCartney's pop writings.

[Salacius 7]

I think you are ripe for one of those classical boards for elitists that piss on John Williams. Somehow you are getting very close to their level. No, you are worse than them. Classical elitists can appreciate McCartney's pop writings.

I can't help it. The guy gets on my nerves!

'Yesterday' is a beautiful song and the other one too (not a huge Beetles fan, sorry) but he hasn't written anything else nowhere near as good since then which makes me think it was Lennon behind it anyway.

Every time I see him on an interview I reach for the bucket.

He is just so pretentious it's unreal.

I'm not elitist, honestly. I like a lot of different styles of music.

From classical to big bands to pop to heavy rock

The guy just sits on my man breasts

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Didn't George Martin write most of the Beatles' music?

[Salacius 7]

Didn't George Martin write most of the Beatles' music?

I wouldn't know, I like a couple of slow tracks from them but I'm not a fan

[A24 4,326]

I didn't realize it was a serious question.

[Sandor 796]

First; Vangelis knows music a lot better than some have stated in this thread. Some people claim Hans Zimmer for example has little theoretical musical knowledge too. Not true. He and Vangelis are well equiped. However; compared to Williams or Morricone their knowledge takes a different path.

And George Martin arranged many orchestral parts on the Beatles albums, but it was Lennon/McCartney/Harrison or Starr who wrote the songs.

[Ollie 1,059]

Elfman was in Oingo Boingo and taught himself when he started composing if I'm not mistaken.

[robthehand 3]

And George Martin arranged many orchestral parts on the Beatles albums, but it was Lennon/McCartney/Harrison or Starr who wrote the songs.

I was under the impression he did a bit more than that (like actually composing some of the non-guitar/drums backing) - but I guess his job (like an orchestator) is to do what he's told and keep his mouth shut.

[Jeshopk 8]

There are many different aspects of reading music. Anyone knows the notes go up and down, but that does not constitute reading music at the professional level. There is note identification, sight-reading, performance, chord identification... A composer can get by on note identification but be a horrible sight-reader and it will not effect the quality of his music. Some skills are only gained in performing and reading music while others are gained in writing and orchestrating it.

Elfman got by without anything but treble clef staves and a sequencer to express his sketches. His instrumentation is complete, but his orchestrators make it look right.

Vangeles plays his music in, so a writing system is not needed.

Remember, in world history music came first THEN music notation.

[King Mark 3,626]

I reluctantly admit that I kind of like the alexander c.d.

K.M.

[Salacius 7]

There are many different aspects of reading music. Anyone knows the notes go up and down, but that does not constitute reading music at the professional level. There is note identification, sight-reading, performance, chord identification... A composer can get by on note identification but be a horrible sight-reader and it will not effect the quality of his music. Some skills are only gained in performing and reading music while others are gained in writing and orchestrating it.

Elfman got by without anything but treble clef staves and a sequencer to express his sketches. His instrumentation is complete, but his orchestrators make it look right.

Vangeles plays his music in, so a writing system is not needed.

Remember, in world history music came first THEN music notation.

Yeah but I think you misunderstood,

What Vangelis says is that he wants to avoid studying music full stop as he feels he is in danger of getting influenced by other composers.

So not only he can't read , he probably has a very limited knowledge of harmony and composition too and I would imagine he knows nothing about orchestration.

I mean good luck to the guy but I disapprove of this way of thinking plus I personally think he is a very mediocre composer erm...I mean musical interpreter

[King Mark 3,626]

So not only he can't read , he probably has a very limited knowledge of harmony and composition too

Well,in any case,that's what it sounds like

K.M.

[Salacius 7]

So not only he can't read , he probably has a very limited knowledge of harmony and composition too

Well,in any case,that's what it sounds like

K.M.

beerchug

[Jeshopk 8]

I mean good luck to the guy but I disapprove of this way of thinking plus I personally think he is a very mediocre composer erm...I mean musical interpreter

I think he has been successful in his achieving his goals. I think he has every right to reject certain aspects of music education, if what he wants to retain is what he sounds like already. If you don't like his music, there are other people who do. And he has pleased good directors. Tell me this, if you put your personal opinion of his music aside, then what is wrong with the methods he uses to achieve his music?

[Salacius 7]

I think he has been successful in his achieving his goals. I think he has every right to reject certain aspects of music education, if what he wants to retain is what he sounds like already. If you don't like his music, there are other people who do. And he has pleased good directors.

Fair enough, and totally agreed, in the end of the day it's just my opinion and nothing more,

Tell me this, if you put your personal opinion of his music aside, then what is wrong with the methods he uses to achieve his music?

Hmm, that's a difficult question,

First I want you to understand that I don’t have a problem with how he physically writes his music.

That’s anyone’s prerogative.

But in his case it’s not choice but inability to write with the traditional notational system.

To come to his music

I don't think that my disliking of his music comes down to just taste.

He is obviously talented but I feel the method he uses to achieve his music ties him down to become the composer he is. And the composer he has become is what I don't like.

So for me his music is inevitably gravitated toward his inability to expand his horizons, to write better , more complex themes and maybe one day to personalise his orchestrations. I cannot separate the two

Don't get me wrong If he would have written some amazing stuff and someone would have told me: 'You know Vangelis doesn't read music and writes based only on improvisation through electronic means' then I would be extremely impressed.

But it's something that won't happen as from what I can hear he only possesses knowledge of basic music and his reluctance to study other composer’s works can only stop him becoming better.

I am coming from the background of the ‘self-taught’ composer and for years I felt I knew all I needed to know.

I was also surrounded by people who believed what Vangelis believed that ‘it’s best not to study as other people’s music can smother your personal talents’.

When I decided to study music I realised how massively wrong I was and thus I dislike people who take this path. I believe in the strong ethics of tradition and tradition in music comes from the centuries of musical developments.

I cannot understand people who discard hundreds of years of history on the basis that they are talented and their talent cannot be tainted by other people’s influences. Unfortunately Vangelis is in the same group of people.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

so, neither can I.

[John Takis 206]

Although he had no formal training, Elfman is absolutely musically literate and can orchestrate just fine. Any suggestion of dependance on his talented assistants/co-workers is a myth.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Remember, in world history music came first THEN music notation.

Actually Western music and notation developed side by side.

[A24 4,326]

Remember, in world history music came first THEN music notation.

Actually Western music and notation developed side by side.

I find that very hard to believe since music is as old as man.

[Salacius 7]

Although he had no formal training, Elfman is absolutely musically literate and can orchestrate just fine. Any suggestion of dependance on his talented assistants/co-workers is a myth.

Agreed, it's the attitude that is different here. For whatever reason he didn't get the start he wanted but he didn't stop there.

He obviously studied on some form of another so full respect to the guy.

Also he has a specific sound and that comes from within. If he was to totally depend on orchestrators he would have sounded different al the time IMO.

[Incanus 5,713]

Remember, in world history music came first THEN music notation.

Actually Western music and notation developed side by side.

I find that very hard to believe since music is as old as man.

Of course there was music first and then the notation. Man was making music before there were writing systems.

What pixie twinkle probably meant was that the Western music (i.e. orchestral music) and notation developed side by side. And I seem to remember that some of the scales are even older, going back to the church music that goes partly back to Ancient music. But there has been notation in the Ancient times (Greek, as we are speaking of the Western music) though none of it has come down to us in written form.

[Vaderbait1 1]

I mean good luck to the guy but I disapprove of this way of thinking plus I personally think he is a very mediocre composer erm...I mean musical interpreter

Why don't you agree? It doesn't matter to me how someone approaches music, so long as they make it. And while he's not very good at creating great overall scores, his themes for Alexander and 1492 are amazing, some of the best ever.

Frankly, I'm tired of "borrowing" from other composers, and I can't remember any part of Vangelis ripping off people ala Horner.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

And I'm tired of overly simplistic themes and orchestrations, like his Alexander theme.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Remember, in world history music came first THEN music notation.

Actually Western music and notation developed side by side.

I find that very hard to believe since music is as old as man.

Of course there was music first and then the notation. Man was making music before there were writing systems.

What pixie twinkle probably meant was that the Western music (i.e. orchestral music) and notation developed side by side. And I seem to remember that some of the scales are even older, going back to the church music that goes partly back to Ancient music. But there has been notation in the Ancient times (Greek, as we are speaking of the Western music) though none of it has come down to us in written form.

Exactly. Up until the 10th century most Western music was taught by word of mouth, but this music was mainly sacred vocal plainchant (a single line sung in unison or octaves). By the time music became more complex staff-notation was already in place. We even have many pieces of chant music in notated form. It's a myth that somehow the wonderful world of harmony familiar to us now once existed before notation. The rules of harmony were developed slowly and painfully over hundreds of years along with various treatises on notation and rules of theory. Even ancient music was notated in some form or other. The Chinese, Greeks, and Romans all had methods of notation dating back thousands of years.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

The Romans, really? I always understood they didn't have music notation, and that's why nobody knows what Roman music sounded like.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

No one is 100% sure, but many Roman treatises on music were destroyed or allowed to perish during the dark ages. For about 500 years knowledge and learning were considered almost sacreligious and many great documents perished, including almost all information we have on Roman music. However some documents survived (Plato's Republic for example) thanks in part to the work of the Benidictine Monks who secretely copied and recopied certain books over the centuries to ensure their survival. AND they invented beer! Gotta love the monks!

[Romão 2,274]

Did't Pithagoras (sp) that invented the pentatonic scale or something around those lines?

Romão, who fins the Alexander score to be ridiculously simple for the most part.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

The Romans, really? I always understood they didn't have music notation, and that's why nobody knows what Roman music sounded like.

Havent you seen gladiator?!? :roll:

[Romão 2,274]

I think it has been reported Rozsa studied Roman music for the fanfares he wrote for Quo-Vadis.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

Gadiator rulz!!111!!11!11!!!11

:roll:

[Romão 2,274]

YOu're bored, aren't you, Manuel?

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

not really, just being funny.

But i think i'll stop or i'll be banned