Is Williams' Ego Getting Bigger???

[TimeAfterTime 0]

I can't help but notice that the composer I've been into the most over the last 20 years is starting to show a very public side to his ego. I've heard rumors time and time again that John Williams is full of himself, but have always felt the opposite after seeing him in concert, interviews, articles, etc.

My first example is to highlight the now famous "Schindler's List Story" where Spielberg says all greater composers than Williams are now dead. I heard Johnny retell this story twice in the last year and a half, both times when I was visting my nieces and nephews in Los Angeles, both times at USC, once at a graduation ceremony and another and this recent Q and A he gave (which by the way, was only taking place because USC wants his money). He tells this story now as if he really believes he is the greatest composer alive, and it's scary.

Not to mention this whole promotional campaign he is running for Geisha, simply to win another Academy Award. I've heard from some sound engineer colleagues in the New York area (who work often with guys out in Hollywood) that Williams is secretly making a case to become both the most nominated and Academy Award winning human of all time (he's not being very secret about it with this big time promo campaign). I think one of those is possible if he keeps getting nominated by the way. When is enough enough? In art, perhaps never. But awards and referring to dead composers is not art, it's ego, and a lot of it.

I've been saddened recently to finally see some public displays of some of the rumors I have heard in recent past. I still love the music I came to know over the last 20 years, but the recent John Williams, at least for me, has been lacking in a number of areas.

Does anyone else notice the whole public ego trip??

[QMM 4]

From what I've seen, in person and not, I'd say no

[Ollie 1,059]

I salute him because winning is the most important thing. A strong composer will crush all infedels below him and show Alfred Newman who is the true master.

Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.

[TimeAfterTime 0]

I salute him because winning is the most important thing. A strong composer will crush all infedels below him and show Alfred Newman who is the true master.

Wow, that's intense.

[Dean1700 4]

I would find it hard to believe that our JW, at his age, would NOW start to build an ego. I don't think his ego is growing at all. I think there is greater recognition of his accomplishments which makes it seem like he's increasing his profile deliberately.

From what I have seen of him he appears very humble over the acclaim his works receive.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

He doesnt seem to speak in a arrogant way at all, and whats wrong with mounting an Oscar campaign? I'd be pissed off too if I lost so many.

[Romão 2,274]

He always comes across as a very humble man, I never got a different perception.

[nightscape94 965]

My first example is to highlight the now famous "Schindler's List Story" where Spielberg says all greater composers than Williams are now dead.....He tells this story now as if he really believes he is the greatest composer alive, and it's scary.

We obviously developed a completely different comprehension about what this is supposed to signify. It's a joke, dude. Nothing more, nothing less. He tells it because, if you've never heard this story before, you get a good laugh. I think he tells it for the casual fan or concert goer, not the fanatics who hang on his every word or download/record every video or mp3. Of course you're tired of the story, I don't blame you, but don't forget it's general purpose, which is to put a smile on your face.

Tim

[Marian Schedenig 8,191]

I've heard from some sound engineer colleagues in the New York area (who work often with guys out in Hollywood) that Williams is secretly making a case to become both the most nominated and Academy Award winning human of all time (he's not being very secret about it with this big time promo campaign).

That would mean at least 14 more nominated scores (disregarding song nominations).

Marian - who wouldn't say no to 14 more qualityWilliams scores.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Not to mention this whole promotional campaign he is running for Geisha, simply to win another Academy Award.  I've heard from some sound engineer colleagues in the New York area (who work often with guys out in Hollywood) that Williams is secretly making a case to become both the most nominated and Academy Award winning human of all time (he's not being very secret about it with this big time promo campaign).  I think one of those is possible if he keeps getting nominated by the way.  When is enough enough?  In art, perhaps never.  But awards and referring to dead composers is not art, it's ego, and a lot of it.

Or maybe he's just really proud of his score and thinks this time it's worth it to make some publicity.

[TimeAfterTime 0]

Of course you're tired of the story, I don't blame you, but don't forget it's general purpose, which is to put a smile on your face.

Yes, I agree that it serves a purpose to put a smile on your face, but I believe it serves a further purpose, and that is for Williams to keep this public notion in the back of our minds that he is the greatest, or that he thinks he is the greatest.

But I don't take this as a joke, I didn't the first time I heard it back in the 90's either. Perhaps he hopes that it comes off as one, but come on, it's one thing to let people talk you up and call you all of these great things, but it is so messed up when you start repeating these things in a public forum to somehow talk yourself up. If any other average Joe were to repeat the great things people say about them in public, it would totally be construed as originating from the ego, and rightfully so. So why is it cool when Williams does it? I still love the guy's music though, these are simply obsevations.

I would find it hard to believe that our JW, at his age, would NOW start to build an ego.

I don't think he's developing one, perhaps he's always had one, and now that he's getting older he doesn't see the point in keeping it under the rug so to speak. I personally know 4 or 5 musicians from the Boston Pops that couldn't stand the guy's ego when he was still there conducting. In addition, I know a few people on the Hollywood studio musicians scene that say the same thing, citing very similar examples.

Just to throw this one out there, as it's a longshot, but perhaps he feels more comfortable with himself as the lone BIG DAWG now that Jerry Goldsmith is no longer with us.

[ashinyobject 0]

he deserves a big ego. he's earned it.

[Ollie 1,059]

He was always the BIG DAWG.

[TimeAfterTime 0]

he deserves a big ego. he's earned it.

Personally, I think everyone has an ego to some degree, but I don't think anyone can earn the right to show it off while people ignore it because of how good they might be.

How about Bodey Miller at this Winter Olympics. This guy was awesome coming into Turin, but man did he open his mouth and people slammed him. Good for people, bad for Miller.

Or James Horner, he is detested by people in the industry because of his ego. I'm not comparing Williams to Horner, as they are VERY different, but I'm just wondering why everyone I run into seems to be cool or ignorant to John Williams' ego.

[JWfangirl1992 18]

he deserves a big ego. he's earned it.

Exactly, he never really had a Popular music type to him. He always kept to the down low performances on like PBS and channels like that. But now as he is getting older he is reflecting on his life and sees all the time he didnt get to gloat and is doing it now. He is probably trying to get a new generation into his music (the Tonight Show performance probably helped that).

You deserve a Masters Degree if you are able to understand a word I just said, because I sure as hell dont.

[orrakul 0]

I don't think he is an egomaniac - but if he is, at least its's warranted... As long as he keeps composing the music that he does, I don't really care!

He's the superstar composer in an industry full of people with huge egos and huger bank accounts, and he's essentially the "in-house" composer fo the most powerful and financially succesful film director of all time. If he does have an ego, is it any wonder?

I've never got the impression of a huge ego with JW - he's always come across as having humility to me.

Just my opinion...

[TimeAfterTime 0]

He was always the BIG DAWG.

Well, I love Williams too, more than any film composer in the last 30 years. But let's be honest for a moment, Jerry Goldsmith could write circles around Williams, not just in originality, but in composition in general.

[Romão 2,274]

He's not exactly putting out music videos to MTV.

The freshness with which he faces his tow most recent nominations to me at least is a clear sign of humbleness.

[gkgyver 1,645]

If there ever was a composer who truly earned a little ego, it's John Williams.

[TimeAfterTime 0]

and he's essentially the "in-house" composer fo the most powerful and financially succesful film director of all time.  If he does have an ego, is it any wonder?

This is a good point. It's a natural progression if you're that popular I guess! I just see a fine line between having an ego and basically calling yourself the greatest composer alive.

[TimeAfterTime 0]

If there ever was a composer who truly earned a little ego, it's John Williams.

How about Wagner, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Mahler, Copland, Beethoven, Mozart...

They earned it too!

[ashinyobject 0]

He's not exactly putting out music videos to MTV.

ummmm......hasn't he?

[TimeAfterTime 0]

He surely has.

[nightscape94 965]

If there ever was a composer who truly earned a little ego, it's John Williams.

How about Wagner, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Mahler, Copland, Beethoven, Mozart...

They earned it too!

But they're all dead...

Tim

[Ollie 1,059]

That's why they couldn't score Schindler's List.

[Romão 2,274]

He's not exactly putting out music videos to MTV.

ummmm......hasn't he?

Not recently. And the whole Star Wars thing is probably due to Lucasfilm than to Williams himself.

[ashinyobject 0]

have yall heard the all brass version of schindler's list theme? its beautiful. i dont think Williams wrote it though.

[gkgyver 1,645]

That's why they couldn't score Schindler's List.  

LOL that cracked me up!

[TimeAfterTime 0]

Well Spielberg could have ressurected any number of composers from the 19th century to compose that score, as it would have been the same thing, and probably even better.

[nightscape94 965]

Where's a time traveling Dolorian when you need one...

Tim

[King Mark 3,631]

.  But let's be honest for a moment, Jerry Goldsmith could write circles around Williams, not just in originality, but in composition in general.

Yeah,right...like what?I keep reading that from a few diehard Goldsmith fans,except I can't find the music to believe this claim,and I have 62 Goldsmith albums on itunes.Soem of his stuff is good(Star Trek,Omen 3,Poltergeist,Secret of NIMH,and some others...),but then I run into this whole pile of crap i'll never listen to again(The Cassandra Crossing,High Velocity,Twilight's Last Gleaming,Small Soldiers,Chain Reaction...etc...).At least Williams lesser efforts are still pleasent to listen to.

Are you just a bitter Goldsmith fan posting here to put down JW?

K.M.

[GoodMusician 56]

If this is true, then that means he might actually be aquiring some sort of ego as all I've ever heard is how humble he is.

If he is starting to do this, than all that means is he's more on a normal person level with himself.

Besides, doesn't he have a right to believe that?! lol...

and if he wants the oscars, it's not like he didn't work hard... it's not like he didn't try... it's not like he doesn't deserve it...

All I can say is, I doubt it, but if he is... good for him.

[AI 0]

Timeaftertimes' ego is getting bigger from this thread, that's for sure. But he will be forgotten tommorow and go back to the tiny speck that he is. Williams ego will continue to grow into a giant fireball of relentless brilliance.

[pi 0]

His ego is well deserved.

[Jarbas 1]

If Williams have a big ego...

1- Why was none Williams score rejected? It would be easy a ego fight "director x composer"... :roll:

2- How did he tolerate Ben Burtt´s ideas about Star Wars Prequels scores?

3- What about his short speech at the Golden Globes Award? :roll:

4- And how could he conduct and record the music from many composers, living and dead (including some "defeated" him in the Academy Awards)?

[TimeAfterTime 0]

Are you just a bitter Goldsmith fan posting here to put down JW?

No, not at all. Interesting selection from what I wrote though. Perhaps you missed the part where I said I've enjoyed Williams music more than anyone's in the last few decades. I enjoy listening to Williams more than I do Goldsmith, but that doesn't make Williams the better composer. We all like total shit sometimes, how about any song from the 80's? Often horrible music but sometimes great to listen to. Just because I like Williams' music more doesn't necessarily make him a better composer. What about Mahler? I know a lot of people that HATE his music, but it's hard to ignore his monumental genius.

Although I'm a Williams guy by fanship, I just think Jerry was a better composer, that's all. From a purely compositional standpoint, I think that Goldsmith had way more control over all things musical, as a whole.

Does anyone honestly think, Williams fan or not, that without Holst and most 19/20th century Russian composers that there would have been anything good from the original Star Wars trilogy? Not to mention Korngold's Kings Row, which is almost identical to the Star Wars theme (talk about awkward as Korngold's son produced the National Philharmonic Star Wars recordings). How about Strauss' Death and Transfiguration; Lois and Superman wouldn't have gotten off of the ground without Strauss. Or how about any march that William Walton wrote? Without his tunes and harmonies there is no Midway, Superman rocket chase and any other time Williams decides that his major 7th voicings look like a good choice. The list can go on and on, and this why I think Jerry had better chops. Not to say he didn't have his influences as well, but he was definitely more original. But nonetheless, I like Williams' music more, and despite that I think it's ok for me to love his music more than another composer's generally more superior work, it seems it's not ok with anyone in this forum. Oh well, you can't please everyone; or perhaps 'anyone' is better for the purposes of this forum.

Timeaftertimes' ego is getting bigger from this thread, that's for sure. But he will be forgotten tommorow and go back to the tiny speck that he is.

Wow, that's just nasty. I hope you don't talk to your mother like that.

If Williams have a big ego...

1- Why was none Williams score rejected? It would be easy a ego fight "director x composer"...  :roll:  

2- How did he tolerate Ben Burtt´s ideas about Star Wars Prequels scores?    

3- What about his short speech at the Golden Globes Award?  :roll:  

4- And how could he conduct and record the music from many composers, living and dead (including some "defeated" him in the Academy Awards)?  

1) Well, I think Williams is definitely more compassionate with directors than most, that's for sure. Also, Williams loves temp tracks, as he thinks they are inspiration (as well as what the director wants, even if the director is a total friggin idiot).

2) Because when you're getting paid 3 million plus back end to compose additional music for a franchise that already made you famous, you suck it up and act professional.

3) What about it? After 50 speeches I'm sure he'd rather just get the award without having to show up.

4) Because he's a hell of a conductor and musician.

Yes, I know, Williams is great. At least I'm a huge fan willing to admit that he might be woefully outliving his ego.

[Jarbas 1]

Ok, guys... I think if I was a personal friend or professional of John Williams I wouldn´t like if he´s a big ego... but if he has... for me it doesn´t matter because it haven´t an affect on me as a fan... even because he hide his ego very well in public!

Come on... let´s stop this "fight"!

[tony69 0]

If there ever was a composer who truly earned a little ego, it's John Williams.

How about Wagner, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Mahler, Copland, Beethoven, Mozart...

They earned it too!

well only wagner had the biggest ego on there. mahler and mozart woudl be asecond. mahler for his conducting however. stravinsky was always yelled at for moving to neoclassicism for instance.

but i think williams maybe ego tripping a bit. but he still does not think he's that good. i strongly feel he wants to be accepted by the classical community. they dont really like his music, and his concert pieces (actual concert ones) have not been that good comparatively on an inspiration level. so i think he feels that he is still lacking.

[TimeAfterTime 0]

i strongly feel he wants to be accepted by the classical community. they dont really like his music, and his concert pieces (actual concert ones) have not been that good comparatively on an inspiration level. so i think he feels that he is still lacking.

Yeah, you're totally right here. Unfortunately, he's battling about 40 years worth of contempt for the commerical industry from the classical community. Ehh, all said and done, Williams is taking his $1 billion+ and laughing all the way to the bank.

[ashinyobject 0]

i LOVE his concertos!!!!!

[King Mark 3,631]

I'm "trying" to like them,so i guess there's already something wrong.

K.M.

[nightscape94 965]

i LOVE his concertos!!!!!

Absolutely. His violin concerto is one of the best I've ever heard, and I've heard a ton. And I'm not saying that just because I'm a Williams fan. I take music very seriously, I've studied for instrument and I've studied theory, and I've really listened to his violin concerto very closely (more then his others). And I feel I'm able to honestly say it's one of the most technically brilliant and most interesting concerti ever written for the violin.

Tim

[ashinyobject 0]

currently, my favorite is the Clarinet Concerto, specifically the

Clarinet Concerto: III. Con Brio - Piano Clarinet Concerto: I.

from the Concerto for Michele - Williams: Clarinet Concerto cd.

i also love the Tuba Concerto.

[TimeAfterTime 0]

His violin concerto is one of the best I've ever heard, and I've heard a ton.

I'll admit, I haven't studied the Williams violin concerto as I have multitudes of other concertos when I was studying composition 20 years ago, but never have I once heard a professional violinst refer to Williams' concerto, not once. I think it's a cool piece, but I think the professional violin community might disagree with this, perhaps even unanimously. There are far superior violin concertos out there, and many of them. Williams should stick to film, he's amazing with it, no need to try write out of your boundaries simply to impress some very prissy classical shmucks.

[nightscape94 965]

Well, I guess that makes my opinion of it completely idiotic. I just can't compete with those professionals. But thankfully Gil Shaham has praised it. And it's odd how all these classical folks keep commissioning concerto work from him (bassoon, clarinet, trumpet...etc). I guess they're not in the "bashing" loop.

Tim

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Does anyone honestly think, Williams fan or not, that without Holst and most 19/20th century Russian composers that there would have been anything good from the original Star Wars trilogy?  Not to mention Korngold's Kings Row, which is almost identical to the Star Wars theme (talk about awkward as Korngold's son produced the National Philharmonic Star Wars recordings).  How about Strauss' Death and Transfiguration; Lois and Superman wouldn't have gotten off of the ground without Strauss.  Or how about any march that William Walton wrote?  Without his tunes and harmonies there is no Midway, Superman rocket chase and any other time Williams decides that his major 7th voicings look like a good choice.  The list can go on and on, and this why I think Jerry had better chops.  Not to say he didn't have his influences as well, but he was definitely more original.  But nonetheless, I like Williams' music more, and despite that I think it's ok for me to love his music more than another composer's generally more superior work, it seems it's not ok with anyone in this forum.  Oh well, you can't please everyone; or perhaps 'anyone' is better for the purposes of this forum.

Since when is the Star Wars theme the only thing John has composed? He has scored nearly 100 films, at least half with their own particular voice and style built upon his own. Despite the Star Wars march being heavily influenced by Korngold's King's Row, it was exceptionally popular. Because it was a popular film. The score had a lot to do with the popularity of the film, yes, but I guarantee that any other triumphant march at the beginning of that film would be in the collected memories of a lot of people.

Incidentally, you provide absolutely no evidence that indicates Williams' ego is nearly as big as you claim, or at least not nearly enough to counter the overwhelming modesty and soft-spokenness that we've heard and read in countless interviews. And what on earth is wrong with Oscar campaigning? Is it just because he's never done it before? Perhaps he's just never believed he deserved the Oscar any other year, until now. Or perhaps he's human, and would actually like to win an award...

[nightscape94 965]

One more thing about the concerto...

I really think that most people don't know about his concerto works (or study it) because they automatically dismiss it because of his film scoring and popularity in culture. It's unfair to slight him sight unseen. No one gives him a chance. Truthfully, I don't give a shit what some uptight bon ton thinks. I'll sit in the dregs of society and listen to my Williams concerti all by myself

Tim

[Jeshopk 8]

Dear TimeAfterTime. I don't see why you think of that story as self congratulating. I see it as self depricating. When Spielberg says "I know but they're all dead" he's saying, "you're not as good as those dead guys." Comparison to other living composers doesn't even come into play as far as the punchline goes.

The reason he tells that joke is that it is funny that Spielberg doesn't actually think he's the greatest composer that ever lived, and is not afraid to say it. It shows that Williams felt inadequate to score Schindler's List, and that Spielberg frankly agreed. I find that to be funny.

Does anyone honestly think, Williams fan or not, that without Holst and most 19/20th century Russian composers that there would have been anything good from the original Star Wars trilogy?

Would Stravinsky have been any good without his predecessors? No, he stood on the shoulders of others, just as every musician must. Orchestral music is not invented, but advanced.

Furthermore, the prequels have more modernistic personal writing, and yes "anything good" came from those.

[TimeAfterTime 0]

Would Stravinsky have been any good without his predecessors? No, he stood on the shoulders of others, just as every musician must. Orchestral music is not invented, but advanced.

Yes, point taken, orchestral music is advanced, but it is also invented. To say Stravinsky wouldn't have been any good without his predecessors is extremely irresponsible. He is the ONLY composer in history to have embraced and pioneered more than one accepted period of music, then rejected it because he was such a genius; the primitivist, neo-classical and serialist styles. Some of the most famous music pedagogues in the world agree that he was one of the most influential people of the 20th century. Stravinsky was truly innovative, this cannot be denied, even if you hate his music.

Since when is the Star Wars theme the only thing John has composed? He has scored nearly 100 films, at least half with their own particular voice and style built upon his own. Despite the Star Wars march being heavily influenced by Korngold's King's Row, it was exceptionally popular. Because it was a popular film. The score had a lot to do with the popularity of the film, yes, but I guarantee that any other triumphant march at the beginning of that film would be in the collected memories of a lot of people.

Incidentally, you provide absolutely no evidence that indicates Williams' ego is nearly as big as you claim, or at least not nearly enough to counter the overwhelming modesty and soft-spokenness that we've heard and read in countless interviews. And what on earth is wrong with Oscar campaigning? Is it just because he's never done it before? Perhaps he's just never believed he deserved the Oscar any other year, until now. Or perhaps he's human, and would actually like to win an award...

Regarding Kings Row, using the word influenced, for me, is misleading. Stolen might be a better word. But what makes Williams so brilliant is that he can take other people's music and make it his own. I partially agree that any other triumphant march at the beginning of Star Wars would be in people's memories. But the march would first need to be a good one I think. But I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about taking a good portion of the theme from Korngold.

And how can I prove that he has an ego? I'm just making observations, that's all.

Well, I guess that makes my opinion of it completely idiotic.  I just can't compete with those professionals.  But thankfully Gil Shaham has praised it.  And it's odd how all these classical folks keep commissioning concerto work from him (bassoon, clarinet, trumpet...etc).  I guess they're not in the "bashing" loop.

Obviously your idea of 'bashing' is far different than mine. Observing that I don't like Williams' violin concerto as much as other concertos is bashing? I'm not saying your opinion is idiotic, as you're entitled to it, as I am entitled to mine. But you have to admit that good composition is completely subjective; understanding of form, harmony, etc. There are many other concertos out there that are more finely crafted, regardless of your opinion of them.

And before you keep making sarcastic remarks such as the those regarding the classical folks commissioning Williams, first know how that process works. It hardly ever comes from the individual, and most commonly from the institution (orchestra) that performs it. The principal player for the respective concerto instrument will then play it. It's good business for an institution to commission a popular composer, commercial or not. They fill the seats that way, it's a business just as much as an art. Also, as far as Gil Shaham is concerned, it is my understanding that the BSO set that one up, regardless of the praise Shaham throws towards the work.

[nightscape94 965]

Well, I guess that makes my opinion of it completely idiotic.  I just can't compete with those professionals.  But thankfully Gil Shaham has praised it.  And it's odd how all these classical folks keep commissioning concerto work from him (bassoon, clarinet, trumpet...etc).  I guess they're not in the "bashing" loop.

Obviously your idea of 'bashing' is far different than mine. Observing that I don't like Williams' violin concerto as much as other concertos is bashing?

I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to the majority of the classical community.

And with regards to the commissioning....it might amaze you that your theory is incorrect, in part. Please note that I'm not being sarcastic, but you've been oddly critical about it. So much so that you just make assumptions. The bassoon concerto was paid for by the instituation, but Judith LeClaire (bassoonist) was given the option to pick a composer of her choice. Williams was the first, and only, choice.

There are many other concertos out there that are more finely crafted, regardless of your opinion of them.

This also applies to you.

Tim