Is Williams' Ego Getting Bigger???

[TimeAfterTime 0]

Citing Judith Leclair does nothing more than support my point that it is simply rare when it is up to the individual. I didn't say it never happens. And what I said is not a theory, nor just assumption, it is fact. Do you think it makes sense for a multi million dollar philharmonic/symphony association to leave the commissioning up to the player? There are people sometimes numbering in the double digits that make these decisions in board meetings. That's part of the symphonic beauracracy. Yes, sometimes players are in the loop, but most often not. And even when they are, I can promise you that the board and conductor have final say, every time.

[nightscape94 965]

I don't see why you think of that story as self congratulating. I see it as self depricating.

Precisely the point I was trying to make. The joke is on Williams.

Tim

[TownerFan 4,983]

In the end, who really cares about composer's egos? It's only the MUSIC that matters.

It's curious that a thread started on the subject about Williams' ego is now clearly readdressed on the good ol' leitmotifs about Williams "stealing" from the past, the Goldsmith vs. Williams thing and other assorted stuff...

[TimeAfterTime 0]

Hey Maurizio, are you actually living in Milan? My father lives just outside of Florence, Montespertoli region. Italian way of life is the bomb!

In the end, who really cares about composer's egos? It's only the MUSIC that matters.

I wish that were true as it applies to Wagner. You gotta' love the Israeli Phiharmonic's 53 year ban on performing any music by Wagner. Eh, you can't win them all!

[TownerFan 4,983]

Hey Maurizio, are you actually living in Milan?  My father lives just outside of Florence, Montespertoli region.  Italian way of life is the bomb!

Yes, I live in Milan. Your father lives in an absolutely gorgeus part of this country. Well, Italian way of life used to be a very good one, before Berlusconi became the prime minister...

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

We all have an ego to some degree, but Williams comes across as a rather level-headed person who does well at hiding his ego, a sign of wisdom. He's an elderly man who I'd expect to have an intellectual approach to his life and his work (at least from what I've gathered). On the other hand, he's also a mild celebrity who seems sincerely proud of Memoirs of a Geisha and feels it deserves to win over all other scores he's written over the last ten years - not a bad thing at all.

The title of this thread gives the image of a John Williams whose head is growing like a balloon filling up with helium at an incredible rate. It's nothing but gratuitous sensationalistic hyperbole, no-one here really knows the man, we can only judge what we see.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

"You're going to need a better composer than me."

"I know, but they're all dead."

How is that calling yourself better than other composers?

Also, listen to Yo-Yo Ma talking about Williams coming to him with his arrangement for Going to School in the iTunes Exclusive interview.

In the end, there's always a certain amount of information we aren't privy to, but I really don't see Williams' ego inflating. If he wants to campaign Geisha, he has every right to. I wouldn't be surprised if the studio wants it to win too and has something to do with it.

[jh12 0]

Not to mention this whole promotional campaign he is running for Geisha, simply to win another Academy Award.  I've heard from some sound engineer colleagues in the New York area (who work often with guys out in Hollywood) that Williams is secretly making a case to become both the most nominated and Academy Award winning human of all time

Perhaps he does have a big ego. But I've yet to see or hear an interview where he wasn't humble, like on the iTunes track with Yo-Yo Ma. And how can Williams become the most "Academy Award winning human of all time?" A different genius by the name of Walt Disney won 32 before he died.

[Ollie 1,059]

Oh my god it's turning into a FSM thread here!!!!!

[Jeshopk 8]

Some of the most famous music pedagogues in the world agree that he was one of the most influential people of the 20th century. Stravinsky was truly innovative, this cannot be denied, even if you hate his music.

No matter how influential he was, his influence started with "Fireworks", which bears his trademark sound, but owes a clear debt in its slow, mysterious middle section to Paul Dukas' Sorcerer's Apprentice which Stravinsky heard Alexander Siloti conduct in St. Petersburg in October 1904. In fact, Williams "break out" score, JAWS was less directly derived than this. Williams' Star Wars did owe clear debts to Stravinsky in the desert music, but only as much as Stravinsky owed to Dukas.

Further, a composer who is less influential actually can be better than a composer who is more influential. Stravinsky was influential because he appeared to break the tonal barrier, but actually his contemporaries were also pushing the limits of chromaticism and atonality. Stravinsky was the first to compose "noise" in Rite of Spring, but is that really so far out of the scope of what Debussy was doing when we look at it today? Is not Debussy verging on this? In fact Rite of Spring only has moments of "noise" when the rest is mostly melodic and chromatic. One must also look at the subject. Stravinsky treated the noisy parts of "Rite" the same way other composers were treating their subjects. It was descriptive of the subject. That nobody else decided to "describe" a violent ancient rite could be the reason that he was the first. We can not rule out that other composers would not have done something similar, with the influences of Primitivism in visual art, the exploration of Africa and the recordings of non-pitched drum rhythms coming back, etc.

So is Stravinsky merely a vessel for the culmination of orchestral music? I'd say yes, much as Williams is. But both are lucky lottery winners as far as composing goes. Not to detract from their talent, they were indeed in the right places at the right times. And that there was more to innovate when Stravinsky hurdled forth should not be overlooked either.

[Salacius 7]

"Is Williams' Ego Getting Bigger???"

No, the other composers are getting smaller

[JWfangirl1992 18]

"Is Williams' Ego Getting Bigger???"

No, the other composers are getting smaller

LOL

[Romão 2,274]

I think filmscoring is at the moment one of the few arts were the best is also the most popular.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Also, listen to Yo-Yo Ma talking about Williams coming to him with his arrangement for Going to School in the iTunes Exclusive interview.  

I would, if was allowed. Too bad I'm just an unworthy German ...

"Is Williams' Ego Getting Bigger???"  

No, the other composers are getting smaller

I don't think this is funny; it's true in a most depressing way.

I do think that JW is the best composer alive.

[JWfangirl1992 18]

I don't think this is funny; it's true in a most depressing way.

I do think that JW is the best composer alive.

You think? I know.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

He was always the BIG DAWG.

Well, I love Williams too, more than any film composer in the last 30 years. But let's be honest for a moment, Jerry Goldsmith could write circles around Williams, not just in originality, but in composition in general.

its interesting to read between the lines, of this newbies posts. It reaks of backstabbing to me.

Sorry but you could not be more wrong. John is the most elegant and humble man. He's soft spoken, and appreciative. Jerry had the big ego, John isn't so brassy.

[futuremartymcfly 0]

in my opinion John williams is probably the best composer alive that we have heard of. There has to be someone out there who is classically trained that just doesn't get heard. I mean theres always someone better. Also if you look at the composers who are considered to be the best there all listed as classical: Bernard Herman(n), Alfred Newman, Korngold, Steiner, and the classical era composers. But then as classical lost its popularity and became..unusual, film music basically took its place.

[Salacius 7]

"Is Williams' Ego Getting Bigger???"  

No, the other composers are getting smaller

I don't think this is funny; it's true in a most depressing way.

I do think that JW is the best composer alive.

I know....definitely the best composer who composes music for films

in my opinion John williams is probably the best composer alive that we have heard of. There has to be someone out there who is classically trained that just doesn't get heard. I mean theres always someone better. Also if you look at the composers who are considered to be the best there all listed as classical: Bernard Herman(n), Alfred Newman, Korngold, Steiner, and the classical era composers. But then as classical lost its popularity and became..unusual, film music basically took its place.

There have to be some people out there who are great and never have given the chance to do something,

Man wouldn't it really suck if Williams would have never being given the chance?

[Josh500 1,615]

I can't help but notice that the composer I've been into the most over the last 20 years is starting to show a very public side to his ego.  I've heard rumors time and time again that John Williams is full of himself, but have always felt the opposite after seeing him in concert, interviews, articles, etc.

My first example is to highlight the now famous "Schindler's List Story" where Spielberg says all greater composers than Williams are now dead.  I heard Johnny retell this story twice in the last year and a half, both times when I was visting my nieces and nephews in Los Angeles, both times at USC, once at a graduation ceremony and another and this recent Q and A he gave (which by the way, was only taking place because USC wants his money).  He tells this story now as if he really believes he is the greatest composer alive, and it's scary.

Not to mention this whole promotional campaign he is running for Geisha, simply to win another Academy Award.  I've heard from some sound engineer colleagues in the New York area (who work often with guys out in Hollywood) that Williams is secretly making a case to become both the most nominated and Academy Award winning human of all time (he's not being very secret about it with this big time promo campaign).  I think one of those is possible if he keeps getting nominated by the way.  When is enough enough?  In art, perhaps never.  But awards and referring to dead composers is not art, it's ego, and a lot of it.

I've been saddened recently to finally see some public displays of some of the rumors I have heard in recent past.  I still love the music I came to know over the last 20 years, but the recent John Williams, at least for me, has been lacking in a number of areas.

Does anyone else notice the whole public ego trip??

I really don't see your point, TimeAfterTime, unless it's just to get on our nerves. John Williams is inarguably one of the best composers ever (film music or otherwise), and it's natural -- if you're not a total nutcase (which John Williams certainly isn't) -- to be very proud of your achievements. And to have some ego is perfectly normal once you have reached a certain stage of a long and successful career. After all, to have an ego doesn't necessarily make you arrogant or so green with envy you're starting to look like Hulk.

Perhaps (probably!) my opinion is biased, but John Williams has been overlooked many times by the general public, which, to a certain degree, goes with the territory of film music. The general public will never embrace a film score as much as pop or rock music or whatever's the latest craze on MTV. So to be wanting to call a little attention to your area of expertise, so to speak, is only natural. And the example you cited . . . why the heck do you take it so seriously? Man, he's just telling a small anecdote-slash-joke! I didn't take it for anything else, never did, and even if I DID, it's not John Williams himself who said it in the first place. It was Steven Spielberg! And HE'S certainly entitled to his opinion, don't you think? Or are YOU about to contradict the GREATEST DIRECTOR OF ALL TIME????

John Williams has mentioned oftentimes that it's only human nature to be wanting to be appreciated for a job well done. I agree with that totally. And if YOU actually feel saddened by his campaign to win an Oscar (when most people his age wouldn't even bother), why, then I wonder what kind of person YOU really are. No offense, but you must feel so insignificant and worthless yourself, you just can't stand to watch a successful and talented professional being ambitious and appreciated.

P.S.: Man, THAT'S two minutes responding to a stupid post I'm never gonna get back!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

True talents do not wait for changes to be dealth out, they seek out chances, grab it by the throat with both hands, and eliminate anyone who stands in their way.

[TimeAfterTime 0]

its interesting to read between the lines, of this newbies posts.  It reaks of backstabbing to me.

Sorry but you could not be more wrong.  John is the most elegant and humble man.  He's soft spoken, and appreciative.  Jerry had the big ego, John isn't so brassy.

Backstabbing? Huh? Perhaps you're taking my posts too seriously.

And as for Jerry, I'm well aware that he had an ego, but I wasn't talking about his ego, I was talking about Williams'. Here's a honest question, with no hidden meaning; why is it that the Williams fans are the ones that can't see his huge ego, yet countless numbers of professionals out there who actually work with him can? It seems to me that the people who have regular contact with him in the musical community know better than we do. I know they know more than me when it comes to this subject, but perhaps I'm the loner who is willing to admit that my bias as a fan and lack of experience as a working professional with Williams means I might be a little less informed than all those people who routinely criticize Williams' ego who actually know him.

[robthehand 3]

Countless professionals? So pros know more than all the people who say what a nice guy he is? Sure... :roll:

[TimeAfterTime 0]

And the example you cited . . . why the heck do you take it so seriously? Man, he's just telling a small anecdote-slash-joke! I didn't take it for anything else, never did, and even if I DID, it's not John Williams himself who said it in the first place. It was Steven Spielberg! And HE'S certainly entitled to his opinion, don't you think? Or are YOU about to contradict the GREATEST DIRECTOR OF ALL TIME????

Well, it sounds like we should all lube ourselves up and wack away based on your feelings of Spielberg. Yeah, he's amazing, truly amazing, but the greatest of all time? Maybe. He certainly is the greatest action/adventure director of all time! But holy hell, his endings (at least recently, Munich excluded) suck my left nut, and sometimes my right one too.

As for where this story originated, you're right, Spielberg originally said it. And you KNOW he thinks Williams is the greatest composer alive (which is of course a very biased opinion). So why can't you entertain the possibility that this Schindler's comment is meant to mean exactly that? "Yeah, but they're all dead." Hello? That's confirming that he thinks Williams is the greatest composer alive. And Williams KNOWS this, and I certainly believe he agrees with it. That's why repeating it over and over is bad form. It's not self depricating at all.

John Williams has mentioned oftentimes that it's only human nature to be wanting to be appreciated for a job well done. I agree with that totally. And if YOU actually feel saddened by his campaign to win an Oscar (when most people his age wouldn't even bother), why, then I wonder what kind of person YOU really are. No offense, but you must feel so insignificant and worthless yourself, you just can't stand to watch a successful and talented professional being ambitious and appreciated.  

No offense, but you're a total ass to make this comment to me. And I'm not saddened by this ridiculous oscar campaign, I'm saddened by the ever increasing public side to his ego.

Countless professionals? So pros know more than all the people who say what a nice guy he is? Sure... :roll:

I think the professionals who work with him know more than we do. Why is this so hard to believe? Is it difficult for you to accept that Williams' ego is extremely apparent to many people who work with him? Even if it is apparent, so what, it's just an observation, it is what it is. It doesn't discount his music.

[robthehand 3]

But holy hell, his endings (at least recently, Munich excluded) suck my left nut, and sometimes my right one too.

And there was me thinking it was the writers who came up with the endings.

As for where this story originated, you're right, Spielberg originally said it.  And you KNOW he thinks Williams is the greatest composer alive (which is of course a very biased opinion).

I think it's the other way round. He always works with Williams because he thinks he's the best composer alive.

So why can't you entertain the possibility that this Schindler's comment is meant to mean exactly that?  "Yeah, but they're all dead."  Hello?  That's confirming that he thinks Williams is the greatest composer alive.  And Williams KNOWS this, and I certainly believe he agrees with it.  That's why repeating it over and over is bad form.  It's not self depricating at all.

Why do you believe it? It sounds like you are the biassed one.

No offense, but you're a total ass to make this comment to me.  And I'm not saddened by this ridiculous oscar campaign, I'm saddened by the ever increasing public side to his ego.

I think he's entitled to a bit of publicity when he's the most successful and (probably) best-loved film composer alive.

I think the professionals who work with him know more than we do. Why is this so hard to believe? Is it difficult for you to accept that Williams' ego is extremely apparent to many people who work with him? Even if it is apparent, so what, it's just an observation, it is what it is. It doesn't discount his music.

Well you're just choosing to listen to the "pros" who don't like him, rather than the ones that do. So it sounds like you are biassed against Williams, in which case this is a strange forum to join.

[Jeshopk 8]

why is it that the Williams fans are the ones that can't see his huge ego, yet countless numbers of professionals out there who actually work with him can?

Have anything to back that up? Maybe by "countless" you mean "0". I can just see it now.

SJ - "Hi TimeAfterTime, Simon Rattle here!"

TAT - "Oh Hi Seiji."

SJ - "Boy, John Williams sure has a big ego!"

TAT - "Let's take a bath together"

[TimeAfterTime 0]

And there was me thinking it was the writers who came up with the endings.

You're right, the director has no say in the ending. Huh? Do you think it's coincidence that almost all of his endings have this ridiuclous happy streak to them? When the writers are different even, the endings all stay fairly consistent. That is the director, absolutely.

Well you're just choosing to listen to the "pros" who don't like him, rather than the ones that do. So it sounds like you are biassed against Williams, in which case this is a strange forum to join.

No, I'm not biased against him, just willing to admit all angles of possibility.

[TimeAfterTime 0]

why is it that the Williams fans are the ones that can't see his huge ego, yet countless numbers of professionals out there who actually work with him can?

Have anything to back that up? Maybe by "countless" you mean "0". I can just see it now.

SJ - "Hi TimeAfterTime, Simon Rattle here!"

TAT - "Oh Hi Seiji."

SJ - "Boy, John Williams sure has a big ego!"

TAT - "Let's take a bath together"

This dialogue is just outright stupid. It's no secret many members from the Boston Pops, some of them friends of mine, couldn't stand not only Williams' music (which they can shove for all I care, because I love his stuff) but his ego. Furthermore, when I have had the chance to record little by little in the Los Angeles area, it's clear and present that the players out there have an enormous amount of respect for him, but also admit he has a huge ego.

[Jeshopk 8]

It's no secret many members from the Boston Pops, some of them friends of mine, couldn't stand not only Williams' music (which they can shove for all I care, because I love his stuff) but his ego.

It is a secret. And would it be any wonder that the ones who hate his music would also think that his confidence is undeserved?

Well, I have personally attended rehearsals with him and the Pops, and he was a pure gentleman on the podium. How someone could think that "let's tighten up the syncopated rhythm in bar 43" translates to ego is beyond me. I also know a singer in the Tanglewood Festival Chorus who sang on Saving Private Ryan. His only complaint was that Williams' choral writing used repeated tones in his part (tenor). Another choral member who sang in Duel of the Fates when Williams guest conducted at Boston College said he was very nice to them, while Keith Lockhart on the other hand said "why do I even try with you people" when he conducted them.

So perhaps some musicians might project a "big ego" onto him, since he is confident and successful (and classical conservatories that trained them tell them he doesn't deserve his fame). But in all my dealings with people who have worked with him, they have been quite happy. Except one recording engineer who was an old russian guy. He told me "I hate his music and I hate his face." The guy did a nice recording of my string quartet, though.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Although I'm a Williams guy by fanship, I just think Jerry was a better composer, that's all.  From a purely compositional standpoint, I think that Goldsmith had way more control over all things musical, as a whole.

Sadly he didn't show any of that in the last decade of his life...

[TimeAfterTime 0]

But in all my dealings with people who have worked with him, they have been quite happy. Except one recording engineer who was an old russian guy. He told me "I hate his music and I hate his face."

That's damn funny. Johnny's face must be too soft for his his sensibilities, those Russians are hard core mo' fo's.

Although I'm a Williams guy by fanship, I just think Jerry was a better composer, that's all.  From a purely compositional standpoint, I think that Goldsmith had way more control over all things musical, as a whole.

Sadly he didn't show any of that in the last decade of his life...

I really like the main title to Sum of All Fears. I thought the beauty of his aria worked brilliantly against the picture. I also really enjoyed the score to Hollow Man, creepy as hell at the main title, and finely crafted (the movie wasn't so good though). I thought the Mummy was bad ass, as well as The Edge, Airforce One and First Knight. And Rudy, shit yeah, albeit 11 years before he passed, but let's round it off to a decade.

I think overall Williams had put out better work than Jerry in their last 10 years together. But despite Jerry's unbelievable craftsmanship through the early 1990's, I'm still up on Williams more than any other film guy.

[nightscape94 965]

I've said my peace and counted to three.

Tim

[TimeAfterTime 0]

It's no secret many members from the Boston Pops, some of them friends of mine, couldn't stand not only Williams' music (which they can shove for all I care, because I love his stuff) but his ego.

It is a secret. And would it be any wonder that the ones who hate his music would also think that his confidence is undeserved?

Yes, it would be a wonder, as there are many composers' music I can't stand whose confidence is well deserved in my opinion. Pierre Boulez for example, Elliot Carter, George Crumb (I like some of his stuff) or even Hans Zimmer.

[Ollie 1,059]

This is a John Williams fan site so when a new member arrives and one of his/her first posts is to criticize or raise accusations against Williams I would expect the members to rally to his defense.

You know it's funny that we have heard from those in the industry and fans that Goldsmith could be a grouch but yet with Williams every single interview with him he comes across as a humble and polite person. When there is an interview with someone in the industry, Perlman, Yo-Yo Ma or even his orchestrators, they have nothing but kind words and praise for Williams.

I think some people naturally assume that success and professionalism lead to huge egos.

And if he does have a little ego and feels like he's written an Oscar worthy score and want's to win good for him, the man will go down as one of the best if not the best at what he does and he deserves it.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

he is the best in my opinion Mark, even when I rag him on scores like Geisha its only because I know he would have created an even better score for GOF, but it would have ben more in the same vein as the others, while Geisha is a departure from his norm, although not a wide departure, think TOD, Amistad, and the sadly berated Monsignor.

But again, WILLIAMS IS NOT AN EGOMANIAC, he is confident in his craft, he is a gracious and eloquent speaker, whose soft voice is soothing, and engaging.

[scissorhands 16]

Some people are confusing Williams' (alleged) ego with his senile dementia.

[TimeAfterTime 0]

Is that why he missed a page turn during the Jay Leno performance??

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Although I'm a Williams guy by fanship, I just think Jerry was a better composer, that's all.  From a purely compositional standpoint, I think that Goldsmith had way more control over all things musical, as a whole.

Sadly he didn't show any of that in the last decade of his life...

I really like the main title to Sum of All Fears. I thought the beauty of his aria worked brilliantly against the picture. I also really enjoyed the score to Hollow Man, creepy as hell at the main title, and finely crafted (the movie wasn't so good though). I thought the Mummy was bad ass, as well as The Edge, Airforce One and First Knight. And Rudy, shit yeah, albeit 11 years before he passed, but let's round it off to a decade.

Hey, I didn't say he didn't write good music anymore "The Mission" from SoaF is gorgeous (though not much else on the score is...), The Mummy rocks, and AFO is my favorite all-over action score (though I perhaps like McNeely's part more than Jerry's ).

But all of these weren't exactly groundbreaking stylistically. As much experimentalism and original techniques Goldsmith was using earlier in his career, his latter works are very streamlined, to the point where any director could know exactly what music he would get for a certain type of scene (action, sweeping). Just the themes were different. So even if Williams also shows some signs of reuse (in his action material etc.), his output has stayed refreshingly diverse and, depending on the projects, certainly fresh and partly unexpected (Take the renaissance elements in PoA for example, or WotW, or (especially) A.I.

[orrakul 0]

John Williams is very wealthy, he loves what he does, and he works with the top people in the film industry and the music industry. He's won every award there is. He's got it all.

I don't believe that he's absolutely determined to do everythng he can to win a 6th Oscar (although I'm sure he'd rather win than lose). The 6th Oscar adds nothing to Williams' legacy - his legacy was established years ago. I think that the 6th Oscar is more important to us fans than to JW... (and let's not forget that Alan Menken has won 8 Academy Awards for scoring & original songs).

There is no "best" or "better" when it comes to composing music; it's silly to talk about whether Jerry Goldsmith is better than JW or vice versa; the only issue is who's your favourite...

[gkgyver 1,645]

You know it's funny that we have heard from those in the industry and fans that Goldsmith could be a grouch but yet with Williams every single interview with him he comes across as a humble and polite person. When there is an interview with someone in the industry, Perlman, Yo-Yo Ma or even his orchestrators, they have nothing but kind words and praise for Williams.  

I think some people naturally assume that success and professionalism lead to huge egos.  

And if he does have a little ego and feels like he's written an Oscar worthy score and want's to win good for him, the man will go down as one of the best if not the best at what he does and he deserves it.  

If that's not my opinion, I don't want to be myself anymore.

[TimeAfterTime 0]

I cetainly think that Geisha is one of Williams' more refreshing scores. Of course the traditional Japanese instruments help, but the transparent orchestration was one I've been longing for from Williams for a very long time.

[orrakul 0]

the transparent orchestration

I'm not trying to be a smartass - but exactly what does that mean?

[TimeAfterTime 0]

the transparent orchestration

I'm not trying to be a smartass - but exactly what does that mean?

When I use the word transparent, I am referring to the more intimate setting in the orchestration. Less instruments, more soloistic material, generally less dense. Thinly scored at moments as well, very effective.

I think the same score orchestrated for a large orchestra would not have worked.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I think the same score orchestrated for a large orchestra would not have worked.

well John and his big ego, his huge American ego, unlike Japanese ego's which are very small,

thought that very small would be good.

Chinpokomon

[tony69 0]

He was always the BIG DAWG.

Well, I love Williams too, more than any film composer in the last 30 years. But let's be honest for a moment, Jerry Goldsmith could write circles around Williams, not just in originality, but in composition in general.

its interesting to read between the lines, of this newbies posts. It reaks of backstabbing to me.

Sorry but you could not be more wrong. John is the most elegant and humble man. He's soft spoken, and appreciative. Jerry had the big ego, John isn't so brassy.

sigh... this thread reminds me of something i said before about johnny. he's really shy. and because of this, when he's with other professionals he does not know well, he distances himself from them to the point of seeming wierd. and it is THAT which makes people think he has a big ego (to the peopel who didnt know, professionals truly think williams has an ego). but williams doesnt have a big ego, he just seems that way. tho his famous comment about losing oscars is also why people claim he has a big ego, though i think johnny was joking.

jerry had a big ego. he knew that he was a good composer. i agree with timescapre or whoever posted the message that jerry was the more original composer. by far, he definately was the most creative one of the two. johnny was the more technical one. so why was jerry not as big as johnny? connections. johnny has spielberg who makes good movies. jerry did alot of movies, but crappy movies. and people would say 'damn jerry, you did it for the money' because the movies were literally crap. thus, the score got little press. johnny on the other hand chooses his movies with care.

lastly, about williams concertos... they are not that good. the best one that i have recieved favourable comments on from classical people is his flute concerto. its an serial piece, however, john made it sound good unlike most other serial pieces. the rest of his concertos aren't good in comparison to other famous concertos. i think the reason is threefold:

a) lack of commitment. he writes these pieces in between scores. i dont think he spends the time he should.

B) lack of inspiration. i think johnny has worked for the film industry that now he DEPENDS on the spotting session. he himself said working on something totally creative is a strong problem. he is used to getting the rhythm/pulse from the spotting session so he knows mm130 or whatever. as well, he doesnt evoke the emotions well because he is used to responding to the spotting session. that's the method he works by; going to the movie without ever reading the script. i think if johnny did not do film music, he might be a much better composer for classical compositions.

c) his pieces technically work but seem forced. he does use contemporary techniques but he can't make them sing/memorable. nor is it very continuous throughout the concerto. remember bernstein's mass? ya, that's the problem.

[Bowie 45]

Oh I get it now!!!

All the professionals over the years who've spread bitter chatter about Williams' bloated ego MUST have been told the horrifically egotistical "I know but they're all dead" joke.

[King Mark 3,626]

So who's right about the concertos.Thos who say they aren't very good and lack inspiration(Tony69...),or those that claim they are better and more profound than anything he's written for film(Miguel...).

K.M.

[Jeshopk 8]

Tony and TimeAfterTime. Please tell me exactly what you do in the music business that gets you on the inside of everybody's opinions in the music business.

Tony, say what you will about his concertos, but they are certainly not rushed, and they are certainly genuine expressions of emotion. And about them not having memorable tunes, and the modernisms being forced, you're just talking out your arse. You're no expert.

[Romão 2,274]

I love both sides of William's output. His film music is easier to get into. There are, however, some wonderful gems in his concert work. I'm particularly fond of the Cello, Violin and Horn concertos.

[Josh500 1,615]

JW is a film composer first and foremost -- he just writes concert pieces on the side. So it's natural that he concentrates his efforts on his "main" work. The symphonies and concertos, IMO, are not necessarily meant as mass entertainment . . . this is the place where he mainly experiments and tries out new ideas (or rehashes older ones). I'm not very familiar with most of his concert work, so I can't say much one way or the other about my preferences, but I think it's a good thing that he doesn't just write for the movies. It certainly doesn't do any harm.

[BigMacGyver 0]

I did not exactly keep track with the entire discussion but I want to point something out to TimeAfterTime:

Regarding Kings Row, using the word influenced, for me, is misleading. Stolen might be a better word. But what makes Williams so brilliant is that he can take other people's music and make it his own. I partially agree that any other triumphant march at the beginning of Star Wars would be in people's memories. But the march would first need to be a good one I think. But I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about taking a good portion of the theme from Korngold.

Some time ago, I did some improvisation on the piano and came across a beautiful melody that i wrote down for a possible use. Recently, i listened to some samples of Alexandre Desplat's score for Le Chateau Des Singes and came across the exact same melody. These things rather happen accidentally since there are millions of people around the world who create music. Today, it is simply impossible to be original without becoming unlistenable.

But i guess this would deserve an entirely new topic because this discussion already went much further.

Regarding this topic's question: I think it is unfair to say that Williams ego is getting bigger because nobody here actually knows the person John Williams, only the composer. That's a huge difference in my eyes.