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Is Williams' Ego Getting Bigger???


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He was always the BIG DAWG.

Well, I love Williams too, more than any film composer in the last 30 years. But let's be honest for a moment, Jerry Goldsmith could write circles around Williams, not just in originality, but in composition in general.

No, let's be honest: That is YOUR opininon. Mine is the direct opposite.

Don't make stupid, arrogant statements like that, which tries to tell us that this is what we all know is the truth. This is your opinion. Don't try to make it mine.

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Williams does maintain very steady professional colaborations with some of the top persons in the industry. That wouln't indicate necessarly a big ego.

It's funny: we find Herrmann's arrogance to be almost endearing, the kind of attitude that creates a lot of funny stories, and yet here we're talking about Williams suposed arrogance like he was some sort of dictator.

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Tony and TimeAfterTime. Please tell me exactly what you do in the music business that gets you on the inside of everybody's opinions in the music business.

Tony, say what you will about his concertos, but they are certainly not rushed, and they are certainly genuine expressions of emotion. And about them not having memorable tunes, and the modernisms being forced, you're just talking out your arse. You're no expert.

regarding the music business, i know the from people that play on the scores composed by williams. of course i'm only getting a very narrow perspective because these people work with him all the time. and regarding his concertos, i'm talking from a conservatory/person studying music point of view:P. so i have been a bit conditioned by the classical stream. i still hold to the opinion of his lack of a cohesive form and the lack of emotional quality. by form, when i look at the scores for the concertos, i dont see a good use of motifs that get developed very well or across sections, which is extremely significant for the classical composer. for the film score composer, it is much less emphasized tho it does appear in many instances (in particular batman has the batman theme = love theme but with different modes)

I want to emphasize that i believe this is not williams fault. he IS very talented. but its the film scoring process that has conditioned him in various regards. his extremely different movements (since film scores require sudden changes). or his dependence on reacting to a visual medium has somewhat hampered his writing/emotional quality. look at his past concertos in comparison to his later ones. flute concerto beats his clarinet concerto.

Williams does maintain very steady professional colaborations with some of the top persons in the industry. That wouln't indicate necessarly a big ego.

It's funny: we find Herrmann's arrogance to be almost endearing, the kind of attitude that creates a lot of funny stories, and yet here we're talking about Williams suposed arrogance like he was some sort of dictator.

HAHA. it is very endearing. people watch the documentary on hermman. its so good. and no williams is no dictator. mahler on the other hand was.:)

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TimeAfterTime, your assertion that Goldsmith "wrote circles around Williams" is suspect. In fact, it's pure subjective rhetoric. Have you ever studied each of Williams' and Goldsmith's conductors scores? While I would agree that Goldsmith's approach toward film scoring was more innovative than Williams' I surely wouldn't make the assertion that Goldsmith was a better composer in pure music terms. In fact, I would say the opposite. There is nothing in Goldsmith's great canon that compares to the harmonic complexity of "Jazz Autographs" or "Theme from Sabrina", the dense contrapuntal textures found in the Theme from Star Wars or the fluid multi-part string writing in Angela's Ashes. Goldsmith said he wrote in a linear fashion whereas Williams based on his jazz past is a mich more vertical composer, thinking more in harmonic terms and density.

Not to be an egomaniac, but I can lift any one of Goldsmith's themes or pieces with the correct inversions pretty darn easily. Williams' chromatic turns can at times be a challenge to transcribe. This doesn't mean Williams is better in absolute terms but I think the large part of his scores do work better as absolute music compared to Jerry's whose music was inextricably linked to the narrative source. Goldsmith had a much more streamlined approach and this became even more evident in his last years where things were written so unadorned that it frustrated me constantly as a composer myself. Goldsmith also didn't venture into the thick, harmonic extensions as much which to me is what makes WIlliams' music so great. It goes past simple triadic and basic chord progressions. In A.I., "David's Theme" I noticed Williams would end on a Minor II chord before returning to the main theme. Most composers will end on a dominant chord or maybe a VII to prepare the cadence to the root. I like the fact that Williams' music always goes where others don't.

And I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry at those people who constantly assert that Goldsmith never took from classical composers. For "Sleeping with the Enemy", he "borrowed" Rachmaninoff's primary theme from this slow mvmnt of his 2nd Symphony. There's a wonderful Bartok Miraculous Mandarin lift in Total Recall (when they try to erase Quaid's memory- cannot think of the track name), Berg lifts, Stravinsky, Varese (in Alien)- The only reason most people crucify Williams is that he references more tonal, popular classical works. Not as many people know their modernist composers like Bartok or Berg. So please step down from your high horse on this matter.

As for his attitude, I met him after a concert in 2003 and he seemed very genuinely modest. And I back up what Jesse said about the infamous Schindler's List story. If you read it again, Spielberg basically inferred that Williams would "have to do because the composers he wanted were all deceased.

Finally, TimeAfterTime, could you possibly be Dan Hobgood because you seem to present couch your arguments in a quasi-philosophical manner. If not, I apologize.

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Finally, TimeAfterTime, could you possibly be Dan Hobgood because you seem to present couch your arguments in a quasi-philosophical manner.  If not, I apologize.

I was thinking the same thing.

He is Dan, or one of his apostles.

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Yeah, I think so because he supplies no real cogent musical defence of his naive and frankly musically ignorant statements.

who's this dan hobgood fellow? i'm sorry but i dont know my film critics (or whatever). or is he the goldsmith fan from the past who kept on arguing that goldsmith was so good and williams was crap on this board? he got banned if i remember correctly.

and i agree with fieryangel. he wasnt trying to be im SO good when he told the schindlers list story. its a funny story and he was just making an anecdote. he is a modest and shy guy.

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Nope, you've got the wrong Dan, sorry. I love how people's observations about certain musical things such as Williams' chops, are regarded as ignorant and ridicuous when it's not it accordance with the mainstream belief on this forum. I guess, at least here, biased will always triumph over unbiased.

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Did you ever stop to think that our observsations are the way they are because we've spent a lot of time listening to and reading Williams interviews, and we have not come across any evidence to back up your claim to the contrary? You sound like a news reporter who is citing "anonymous" sources to further your opinion.

Tim

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Nope, you've got the wrong Dan, sorry.  I love how people's observations about certain musical things such as Williams' chops, are regarded as ignorant and ridicuous when it's not it accordance with the mainstream belief on this forum.  I guess, at least here, biased will always triumph over unbiased.

Well then tell us musicians on this board in musical terminology why Goldsmith is a better composer than Williams. And don't include his scoring aesthetic because that's not part of the equation. You seemed to have assumed that everyone who likes Williams on this board are biased fan boys when some of us actually know our stuff. the ball is in your court sir.

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the film scoring process that has conditioned him in various regards. his extremely different movements (since film scores require sudden changes). or his dependence on reacting to a visual medium has somewhat hampered his writing/emotional quality. look at his past concertos in comparison to his later ones. flute concerto beats his clarinet concerto.

It's not possible to assume that what you've said is true. Yet, you have assumed that it is true. I find the contrasting movements to be very engaging to the listener (me). I notice ears perk up and people take notice in the concert hall whenever a new movement starts. As for unemotional. Do you think that he is trying to write as romantic and direct music as a film score when he writes for concert stage? I can confirm that the answer is no. And the flute concerto does not beat his clarinet concerto as far as I am concerned.

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Well, I know who Fiery Angel is....

Anyhow, I'm not TimeAfterTime. Those familiar with my lucid arguments should notice a difference between his and mine.

DH

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Dear TimeAfterTime: I have just browsed through this thread, and I must say that, from a purely compositional point of view, and I dare say an extremely educated one, your observation on Williams' technique and its "inferiority" to Goldsmith's is simply WRONG!

Now, I LOVE Goldsmith, but no magnificent note penned by him was ever "beyond" Williams' abilities. The two giants had different styles and approach, that is all. I will say that on those few occasion when Goldsmith did pay homage to his colleague, it was evident that he lacked the same assurancy with certain techniques of the model.

Finally, your linking chops with originality is ludicrous, and plainly invalid outside the modernist paradigm.

Not that Williams isn't original. His originality is such, that his signature shines through whatever he writes, no matter how informed by existing traditions.

Sincerely,

Marcus

P.S. As far as concert music goes, Williams' contibutions are significant, and any thourough study of, say, his bassoon concerto, violin concerto, Essay for Strings and other pieces, will reveal a superb craftsman, a master of design and color. To suggest otherwise is absurd, even though one may find the music less appealing on a surface level. I personally adore them, and find in them some of his most thoughful and thoroughly brilliant writing.

P.P.S. My apologies for any missing consonants and other typos; I will admit that TimeAfterTime's comments made me rather agitated.

Peace to all of you,

Marcus

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lol, thats the thing with bumping these old threads, you could be ressurecting controversial posts made by people who haven't posted in a real long time

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Like me for instance. Just the mere mention of the word MASTURBATION had the bells ringing around this hallowed pages for months. I had to go into semi-quasi exile.

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